Should horse racing be banned?

wonderfulname · 17-04-2012 11:58AM

Worztron wrote: »

Don't make me laugh.

Read the god damn thread!! How many times...

In particular this link in this instance, you're just showing you have no authority over the subject, and insulting people in the process.

17-04-2012 11:59AM

Worztron wrote: »

Cats get poisoned, ran over, go missing, etc. in the countryside also. The owner cannot be blamed for none of those things. Did you ever hear of a cat flap?

Don't make me laugh.

What a load of presumptuous claptrap.

I actually have no problem with cat ownership, its better for the animal to live in the country but either way there are dangers and people are just as entitled to own a cat as own a race horse and enter him in races.

The point is lost on you though as you are vigorously defending cats being killed while saying horse racing should be banned. You are saying that a cat chooses to leave the house via the cat flap which was provided by the owner and therefore its the cats fault that he died.

Well one of the horses who died in the National sustained the injury while running loose, why didn't he stop if he hated running so much, why didn't he run around the jumps instead of jumping them. Its because they enjoy to run with the rest and don't look on a fence as a big deal and just clear them.

Also if your going to correct my grammar, get it right yourself! "for none"??

wonderfulname · 17-04-2012 11:59AM

Worztron wrote: »

Cats kill out of instinct.

Oh cool, that would be like horses running then?

ScumLord · 17-04-2012 12:04PM

Worztron wrote: »

Cats kill out of instinct. It is as simple as that.

Mark Twain: "Of all the creatures ever made man is the most detestable. Of the entire brood, he is the only one that possesses malice. He is the only creature that inflicts pain for sport, knowing it to be pain."

Nonsense, humans are by far the nicest animal on the planet. Orcas and cats all kill for sport/fun too as do many animals, the only thing unique about humans is the compassion we have for our food. Violence is par for the course with nature.

kincsem · 17-04-2012 12:17PM

Worztron wrote: »

Since when do facts (horses being destroyed) become an opinion?

You should read my post #289 on this thread (and #264). Putting down horses is necessary if they are badly injured. It is unfortunate that they broke bones.

I prefer flat racing, and have seen three horses die on the flat. I have attended race meetings since 1975 (37 years). At my busiest I attended about 60 race meetings a year = about 420 races = about 4200 runners. Over 37 years I have seen probably 50,000+ runners with 3 fatalities.

Do you know that thousands of thoroughbred horses are destroyed, but not on the racecourse? If you look at the 2010 Ireland thoroughbred horse population below you will see an imbalance between breeding males (240) and females (15,345). Assuming equal numbers of males and females are born what happened to the 15,345-240=15,105 males that are not used for breeding. You are whining about two horses destroyed, and are ignoring 15,105 missing. Some are exported, but they too disappear when they stop racing.

Think of the economics. A horse will only have a value if it can (1) win money or (2) breed horses that will win money. About 5% of horses make money but owners accept this.
Some foals are born with defects or develop insufficiently to be trained, or when trained are not athletic enough to be competitive. Then when jumps horses become too old and slow they have no value (can't win money). Flat horses the same. Jumps horses can run to about 12 years old, flat horses to about 6 or 7 years old.

It costs about €20k to train a horse for a year, maybe as low as €10k, possibly much more for top flat trainers. And the owner has to buy the horse first, or buy the breeding stock and breed from them.
Horseracing is a business, and it is the owners who are the biggest contributors, the vast majority paying heavily for their racing. Please do not say that the owners should pay say €50k to buy each horse, have it trained for 4 years for €80k (to say age 12) and then keep it for €10k a year to the end of its natural life at say 25 years €50k+€80k+€130k = €260k.

Year 2010 Ireland
Stallions........240
Mares........15,345
Foals .........7,588

Do you want horses that break bones to convalesce in the horse hospital? Read my post #289 very carefully.

Horses in Ireland have good veterinary care. If they are not well looked after the trainer is very heavily fined, and banned. You might say it is cruel to put down horses at the end of their useful life. But imo that is better than selling them to places like Belgium where they are run on roads (yes) with little concern about injuries or care.

People who are posting about cruelty just do one-liners as they know almost nothing about horseracing.

UrbanSea · 17-04-2012 12:39PM

I wouldn't engage in a physics debate with a physicist cos I know I'd be speaking through my arse hole, talking about something that I know nothing about. So I wonder why Worztron is engaging in such a similar instance?

You highlighted your ignorance in a reply to another poster when you dismissed that jockeys don't care about the horses. Also, nit picking at a common grammatical error in a debate just shows your inability to engage in an intellectual discussion without being deliberately condescending and snide.

2ndcoming · 17-04-2012 12:43PM

Bambi wrote: »

So what? How many Destriers are knocking around these days?

So you would rather the thoroughbred was extinct than 0.001% of them dying in the course of doing what they were bred to do?

Nice logic.

Canis Lupus · 17-04-2012 12:58PM

2ndcoming wrote: »

So you would rather the thoroughbred was extinct than 0.001% of them dying in the course of doing what they were bred to do?

Nice logic.

No, we ship them to islands around Ireland where they can run free and become a tourist attraction.

UrbanSea · 17-04-2012 01:05PM

Canis Lupus wrote: »

No, we ship them to islands around Ireland where they can run free and become a tourist attraction.

Hang on:

You want thoroughbreds who have been living a pampered lifestyle to be abandoned to the wild, where fatality rates are astronomical to those in training?

Thoroughbreds aren't wild horses. They would not survive in the wild.

YFlyer · 17-04-2012 02:06PM

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Does anybody have a gif which involves a bad joke backfiring quite badly?

That sure would be useful about now.

Something with Pat Kenny in it?

Temptamperu · 17-04-2012 02:28PM

Why is it we complain about horses dying whilst at five o'clock or so you will be gnawing on some reheated carcass.

Did you know there is about 4 cows killed every year just for you? I know they where breed for that. Well guess what those horses where breed for racing.

Worztron · 17-04-2012 02:28PM

wonderfulname wrote: »

Read the god damn thread!! How many times...

In particular this link in this instance, you're just showing you have no authority over the subject, and insulting people in the process.

The racingpost is biased guff. Others have insulted me - how about highlighting that!

kfallon · 17-04-2012 02:29PM

Worztron wrote: »

The racingpost is biased guff. Others have insulted me - how about highlighting that!

You have insulted yourself tbh :rolleyes:

Worztron · 17-04-2012 02:33PM

Carolina Disgusting Paperback wrote: »

I actually have no problem with cat ownership, its better for the animal to live in the country but either way there are dangers and people are just as entitled to own a cat as own a race horse and enter him in races.

The point is lost on you though as you are vigorously defending cats being killed while saying horse racing should be banned. You are saying that a cat chooses to leave the house via the cat flap which was provided by the owner and therefore its the cats fault that he died.

Well one of the horses who died in the National sustained the injury while running loose, why didn't he stop if he hated running so much, why didn't he run around the jumps instead of jumping them. Its because they enjoy to run with the rest and don't look on a fence as a big deal and just clear them.

Also if your going to correct my grammar, get it right yourself! "for none"??

It is not the cats fault that they were run over or poisoned by reckless people.

I was not correcting grammar - merely pointing out that the wrong word was used. There is a big difference.

The horses hardly enjoy leaping over high hedges where they are in danger of breaking a leg - which in horse racing means a death sentence.

Worztron · 17-04-2012 02:41PM

wonderfulname wrote: »

Oh cool, that would be like horses running then?

But horses dont have an instinct for dangerous racing and being wiped into submission.

17-04-2012 02:44PM

Worztron wrote: »

It is not the cats fault that they were run over or poisoned by reckless people.

I was not correcting grammar - merely pointing out that the wrong word was used. There is a big difference.

The horses hardy enjoy leaping over high hedges where they are in danger of breaking a leg - which in horse racing means a death sentence.

So a cat roaming around a city and runs right in front of the car and its the drivers fault?

What are you basing this opinion on that horses don't like jumping fences? Again you are talking about a subject you know nothing about, horses a strong athletic animals running fast and jumping comes naturally to them.

Worztron · 17-04-2012 02:47PM

Carolina Disgusting Paperback wrote: »

So a cat roaming around a city and runs right in front of the car and its the drivers fault?

What are you basing this opinion on that horses don't like jumping fences?

Fair enough point with the car scenario (as long as they are not speeding like maniacs).

Horses are constantly falling when jumping those high hedges. I doubt the horse enjoys landing on its head.

17-04-2012 02:55PM

Worztron wrote: »

Fair enough point with the car scenario (as long as they are not speeding like maniacs).

Horses are constantly falling when jumping those high hedges. I doubt the horse enjoys landing on its head.

But the vast majority of the time the horse is fine, its no different to getting knocked over playing a game of football. Watch horses in a field sometime, they are always running around at high speed for fun and with a lot of horses would be jumping out over the walls from one field to the next without special extra high electric fences that are set up for horses.

Horses can injure themselves in a field just as fast as out on the racetrack.

We have always had a few horses on the farm, not race horses (though I hope to own a race horse someday) but ones for showjumping or just as pet and they really enjoy getting ridden, jumping obstacles etc and

mooonpie · 17-04-2012 02:57PM

Worztron wrote: »

The horses hardy enjoy leaping over high hedges where they are in danger of breaking a leg - which in horse racing means a death sentence.

I'm not going to discuss the point about the horse's enjoyment as I've never got a straight answer from them on that particular topic. Fair play to you if you have!

The death sentence is not just in horse racing - if a wild animal breaks its leg it is left to the mercy of the eco-system. Surely it'd be in the animal's best interests to be put down, rather than be killed by other wild animals or left to suffer and rot wherever it eventually lies down after it keeps injuring the leg and can't go on any more.

Now to repeat a point that has been made many times on this thread:
If you break your leg, you go to a doctor and get a cast to keep it in place while the bones knit back together and you are confined to bed rest or given crutches to keep the weight off the leg.

How would you suggest a horse keeps the weight off its broken leg, because they are an active animal. Should it be sedated until the leg heals?

There was an article linked to earlier in this thread that stated horses confined to a stable are at a much greater risk of infection and pneumonia. That doesn't seem to me to be in the animal's best interests.

Finally, I think you mean hardly - I'm not correcting your grammar or spelling ... merely pointing out that you used the wrong word

Evie90 · 17-04-2012 03:25PM

kincsem wrote: »

Do you know that thousands of thoroughbred horses are destroyed, but not on the racecourse? If you look at the 2010 Ireland thoroughbred horse population below you will see an imbalance between breeding males (240) and females (15,345). Assuming equal numbers of males and females are born what happened to the 15,345-240=15,105 males that are not used for breeding. You are whining about two horses destroyed, and are ignoring 15,105 missing. Some are exported, but they too disappear when they stop racing.
.

That's a bit of an exaggeration, I'm sure thousands of those horses were gelded just because they weren't used for breeding doesn't mean they were all put down.

calfmuscle · 17-04-2012 03:38PM

The vast majority of colts (young males) are gelded. Then there are the exported horses, Ireland is a major (I think 3rd in the world) exporter of racehorses. Then there are the ones who get a colic, break a leg, get a virus, get hit by a car etc.

15,000 is a major exaggeration.

kfallon · 17-04-2012 03:41PM

Worztron wrote: »

The horses hardly enjoy leaping over high hedges where they are in danger of breaking a leg - which in horse racing means a death sentence.

Worztron wrote: »

Horses are constantly falling when jumping those high hedges. I doubt the horse enjoys landing on its head.

Why do horses continue to jump fences after they have lost their jockey during a race? If they didn't enjoy it then surely they would stop once the jockey had been lost?

ppink · 17-04-2012 04:18PM

kfallon wrote: »

Why do horses continue to jump fences after they have lost their jockey during a race? If they didn't enjoy it then surely they would stop once the jockey had been lost?

because they are herd animals and going with the rest?

kfallon · 17-04-2012 04:22PM

ppink wrote: »

because they are herd animals and going with the rest?

But they could easily run around the fences and continue with the 'herd' but lots of them continue to jump the fences/hurdles

ppink · 17-04-2012 04:34PM

that is true.

I have no doubt horses like jumping, I have watched 2 rescue thoroughbreds outside my window as soon as they had enough weight back on they were quick to start galloping around and around the field and choosing to jump branches on the ground too.

do they choose to do 30 of them in a row though? and they are not exactly small either. I have not noticed any loose horses to continue on to finish the entire GN over fences, most dont I would think?

kfallon · 17-04-2012 04:45PM

ppink wrote: »

do they choose to do 30 of them in a row though? and they are not exactly small either. I have not noticed any loose horses to continue on to finish the entire GN over fences, most dont I would think?

There was a horse called Puntal (I think it was him) who continued on the GN course after he fell and actually fell another 2 times I think. Was about 3-4 years ago IIRC.

TheDoc · 17-04-2012 04:46PM

sigh

As someone already mentioned, and to be honest you just read the media in this country and it is no wonder people think the way they do.

Got this from another thread

@Spin1308 Two horses put down after incidents at Grand National?Should horse racing be banned?Let us know your thoughts

@Spin1038 Footballer in Italy has had a heart attack

Just wow,

In short, no, and the typical animal rights bollox needs to go back into the woodwork. these horses get looked after better then any of the activist's that "want them free'd" and live in much better conditions then they would in a random field.

There is dangers with everything, stop being a nanny state, as usual.

A deal was struck yesterday as part of the Chinese visit few weeks back, to setup a championship stable in China, to grow and promote racing in China, which is wroth an estiminated 40 million to the Irish ecnonomy initially, with potential growth to over 200 million.

LuckyLloyd · 17-04-2012 04:46PM

kincsem wrote: »

About 70% of flat fillies are retired to stud ("to the paddocks" if you want to use the accepted term.) Less than one percent of the flat colts are used as stallions. The others are destroyed, not by injection as that would taint the meat. Horse males do not marry horse females. One stallion will mate with as many as 200 mares in a breeding season starting on 15th February and lasting about three months. The other males are not used.

In a way the jumping horses have more of a life as they could be running up to twelve year olds. Many of the flat horses are destroyed as 2-y-0 or 3-y-0. Of course many are not good enough to be trained and disappear earlier.

Hmm, grimly informative.

The defenders and detractors around the sport are clearly focused on the wrong things. The debate centers on horses that get to go and work - when there should be big questions being asked about the majority of bred horses who don't see their third birthday.

UrbanSea · 17-04-2012 04:52PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Hmm, grimly informative.

The defenders and detractors around the sport are clearly focused on the wrong things. The debate centers on horses that get to go and work - when there should be big questions being asked about the majority of bred horses who don't see their third birthday.

It makes no sense to destroy a flat racehorse at 2. I'd like to see some stats for that.

17-04-2012 04:56PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Hmm, grimly informative.

when there should be big questions being asked about the majority of bred horses who don't see their third birthday.

A horse being humanely slaughtered and used for dog/cat food etc or exported to countries who eat horse meat is not an issue imo, its no different to cattle/sheep being slaughtered for meat.

Its the horrendus conditions and treatment of horses by some people, particularly the travelling community which is disgraceful. I have seen and heard first hand some of the terrible acts of cruelty inflicted on ponys and horses but nothing is ever done. Its these poorly bred horses that are up and down the country on the sides of roads half starved or being actually beaten (as opposed to a few smacks of a jockeys whip) that should be the concern of this sudden emergence of horse welfare activists that we see every year and call for a ban on what is an industry which offers the horses involved a life as good if not better than nearly all other animals.

Look at the treatment of dairy cows in New Zealand, not always fed properly, forced into labor in order to calf within a certain time period and all new born calves rounded up and slaughtered almost straight away after birth etc etc. This is the sort of thing that should be getting people annoyed.

Should horse racing be banned?

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