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Proposal to limit Catholic Church’s role in primary schools.

135678

Comments

  • #62
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Knight who says Meh wrote: »
    you are a hypocrite to be looking for separation of church and state whilst falsely inflating the stats on the census

    You're wrong. Regardless of how Doc described himself on the census, it is not hypocritical to want "seperation of church and state" and at the same time profess to be a religious believer. So if he did tick the RC box it has no bearing on his views on church and state.

    You have a "them against us" atitude and a mistaken belief that religious belief has to have a numerical disadvantage to lose the "seperation of church and state" argument.


  • #63
    Knight who says Meh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 464 ✭✭Knight who says Meh


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    You're wrong. Regardless of how Doc described himself on the census, it is not hypocritical to want "seperation of church and state" and at the same time profess to be a religious believer. So if he did tick the RC box it has no bearing on his views on church and state.

    You have a "them against us" atitude and a mistaken belief that religious belief has to have a numerical disadvantage to lose the "seperation of church and state" argument.

    Youre wrong and have mis represented what I wrote. The Op stated that he is agnostic but claims to be catholic because he was raised as one. This is stupid, plain and simple. You are catholic if you believe in the catholic god and follow all of the teachings of the Catholic church. If his parents had dressed him up as a girl and told him he was one up until the day he discovered his penis whould he still be a girl?


  • #64
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Knight who says Meh wrote: »
    Youre wrong and have mis represented what I wrote.

    This is what you wrote:
    Knight who says Meh wrote: »
    i must say that you are a hypocrite to be looking for separation of church and state whilst falsely inflating the stats on the census

    I can't see how you feel I misrepresented what you said i.e. that he was a hypocrite for wanting seperation of chuch and state whilst describing himself as a catholic.


    Knight who says Meh wrote: »
    The Op stated that he is agnostic but claims to be catholic because he was raised as one. This is stupid, plain and simple. You are catholic if you believe in the catholic god and follow all of the teachings of the Catholic church. If his parents had dressed him up as a girl and told him he was one up until the day he discovered his penis whould he still be a girl?

    This is an entirely different argument to the one above - where you call the poster a hypocrite for advocating seperation of church and state whilst declaring in the census that he is a roman catholic.

    For what it's worth here is my contribution to that particular (different) census issue.


  • #65
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 99,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Any update on the statistic that 90% of primary schools here are managed by the Catholic church ?

    The root of the problem is that the state hasn't much resources into setting up primary schools. The golden rule is - as always - the person with the gold makes the rules. Most research shows that you get more value for money in investing in primary than trying to catchup in secondary.

    If we value education as a society we need to seriously invest in primary schools and not leave it up to self-interested groups who can then choose their ethos.


  • #66
    marty1985
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭marty1985


    Knight who says Meh wrote: »
    Youre wrong and have mis represented what I wrote. The Op stated that he is agnostic but claims to be catholic because he was raised as one. This is stupid, plain and simple. You are catholic if you believe in the catholic god and follow all of the teachings of the Catholic church. If his parents had dressed him up as a girl and told him he was one up until the day he discovered his penis whould he still be a girl?

    I really agree that we need another thread to discuss this. :rolleyes:

    His agnosticism is an intellectual position. He could be a lapsed Catholic, in the sense that he doesn't require a formal act or baptism to re-enter the faith, he just has to resume attending mass and accept certain teachings. Intellectual positions are open to change. He has freedom to identify with whichever religious denomination he wishes. He is not considered an ex-Catholic by either himself or his church AFAIK. His own opinion is the only one that matters.

    Not exactly the same as gender identity disorder.


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  • #67
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Any update on the statistic that 90% of primary schools here are managed by the Catholic church ?

    The root of the problem is that the state hasn't much resources into setting up primary schools. The golden rule is - as always - the person with the gold makes the rules. Most research shows that you get more value for money in investing in primary than trying to catchup in secondary.

    If we value education as a society we need to seriously invest in primary schools and not leave it up to self-interested groups who can then choose their ethos.
    They owe this country all the gold they got for the misery that they caused through child abuse all in the name of Christianity.

    Let them hand over all the assets of what schools they control to the state and call it quits.


  • #68
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Any update on the statistic that 90% of primary schools here are managed by the Catholic church ?

    The report published this morning puts it at 89.65% (2,841 out of 3,169 primary schools).
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    If we value education as a society we need to seriously invest in primary schools and not leave it up to self-interested groups who can then choose their ethos.

    But when we have an minister for education who actually blames the teaching of religion and the irish language for falling numeracy and literacy you really have to wonder how serious he is about improving primary school quality (as opposed to furthering his and his party's secularist wet-dreams).


  • #69
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    This is what you wrote:



    I can't see how you feel I misrepresented what you said i.e. that he was a hypocrite for wanting seperation of chuch and state whilst describing himself as a catholic.





    This is an entirely different argument to the one above - where you call the poster a hypocrite for advocating seperation of church and state whilst declaring in the census that he is a roman catholic.

    For what it's worth here is my contribution to that particular (different) census issue.
    Whilst also claiming to be agnostic...ummmmmmmmmmmm Oh I getcha!!! Culturally catholic!!!!!!!;)


  • #70
    mackerski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭mackerski


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    Do ordinary people get a say at all?
    If there is a proposal for the school in your parish how about letting the people in the parish decide what to do.

    It's their school too

    Isn't what you suggest more or less where we are today? So let's suppose we have a village with a school that today is run by the Roman Catholics. Let's even suppose that 60% of the village population thinks that's fine and dandy and is dead set against any dilution of the religious ethos of what is "their school too".

    Seems to be very much the same bummer for the non-religous parents and children. How is that progress? How is it compromise?


  • #71
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Whilst also claiming to be agnostic...ummmmmmmmmmmm Oh I getcha!!! Culturally catholic!!!!!!!;)


    Call him whatever you like (and be as smug as you want about it). It doesn't make a blind bit of difference to the validity of his views on the seperation of church and state as The Knights Who Say Meh claims.

    It never ceases to amaze me that secularists seem abnormally interested in the integrity of the faith of individual catholics. They are like the stereotypical 'holy mary' with faux shock that individuals are only half practicing their faith - "sure, they're only cultural catholics". Yep, it's all or nothing with these guys.


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  • #72
    marty1985
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 788 ✭✭✭marty1985


    I Heart Internet, some people think they are at war and no middle ground is acceptable. You're either with them or against them.


  • #73
    Amelia Bitter Speculator
    Posts: 81,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Amelia Bitter Speculator


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    Oh the irony.............:D

    what irony?


  • #74
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Implying that ireland is a Catholic Country in the same way which it isnt . Would you like it to be thus?

    84% Catholic would indicate otherwise. And are Islamic countries returning the favour? I thought not.


  • #75
    Knasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    84% Catholic would indicate otherwise. And are Islamic countries returning the favour? I thought not.
    I really don't see what point you are trying to make here. Some countries are discriminating against your beliefs, so you're going to get payback by discriminating against people who don't hold your beliefs? And on top of that, the people who you want to discriminate against, aren't the ones discriminating against you because they are living in this country and not the Islamic countries you are talking about.


  • #76
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    84% Catholic would indicate otherwise. And are Islamic countries returning the favour? I thought not.

    Ireland is a secular (Supposedly) country with a majority of Catholics. This is not the same as being a catholic country in the way that Iran is a Muslim Country with a State religion.
    Oh and that 84% includes agnostics who bizzarely call them selves catholics and young adults who's Mammys tick them as catholic even though they are no longer so.


  • #77
    StudentDad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    About time. As far as I'm concerned all religious indoctrination should occur outside of school hours. If parents want their children indoctrinated they can do so at Sunday School etc etc.

    SD


  • #78
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    This report is only that, a report. It is like the much vaunted literacy and numeracy strategy, big on PR but little to follow it up.


  • #79
    Feeona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭Feeona


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    This report is only that, a report. It is like the much vaunted literacy and numeracy strategy, big on PR but little to follow it up.

    I agree. I can't see anything major happening anytime soon.


  • #80
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    I'm surprised here that rule 68 and 69 of the "Rules for National Schools", first published in 1965's is not being debate more!

    Rule 68:
    "...of all the parts of a school curriculum Religious Instruction is by far the most important"

    Rule 69:
    ... which also deals with religion, calls for the denomination of each pupil to be ascertained from the parent, "the father, if possible", it adds. (We all know how unreliable mothers can be in such matters!)

    News item: http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0315/schools.html

    =============================================

    One is just outdated daftness and the other is just blatant sexism by a religious organisation!


  • #81
    mloc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭mloc


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    84% Catholic would indicate otherwise.

    If you are using the census figure to define Ireland as having a population that is 84% Catholic, I would suggest that is an inaccurate and misleading statement.

    The census figure itself is inaccurate. The phrasing of the question regarding religious beliefs, the lack of definition of what "catholic" actually means and the fact that census collectors themselves encouraged people to select catholic even if they were only baptised catholic and are no longer practising (this happened to my parents) makes the census statistics regarding religion in the population invalid.

    No doubt the Church will ignore this and use it repeatedly to claim the vast majority of Irish people are practising Catholics, which is, of course, untrue.


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  • #82
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 99,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Rules for National Schools Under the Department of Education


    P class= Rules for National School - Published January, 1965 br
    br Part 1 -  a href= www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/rules_for_national_schools_1_7.pdf View File /a
    br Part 2 -  a href= www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/rules_for_national_schools_7_13.pdf View File /a
    br Part 3 -  a href= www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/rules_for_national_schools_13_21.pdf View File /a
    br
    br Schedule -  a href= www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/rules_for_national_schools_schedule.pdf View File /a


  • #83
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Another consideration for Government should be the request for the removal of all abominable graven images, statues and shrines from school properties if they are to become secular.


  • #84
    grindle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,025 ✭✭✭grindle


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Call him whatever you like (and be as smug as you want about it). It doesn't make a blind bit of difference to the validity of his views on the seperation of church and state as The Knights Who Say Meh claims.

    It never ceases to amaze me that secularists seem abnormally interested in the integrity of the faith of individual catholics. They are like the stereotypical 'holy mary' with faux shock that individuals are only half practicing their faith - "sure, they're only cultural catholics". Yep, it's all or nothing with these guys.

    Firstly, if you don't follow the teachings of the Bible (impossible), you're not considered by the god in the Bible to be a sheep of his flock. Not at all. Which makes you an enemy to him. Fire and brimstone, genocides and mass-rape (maybe this is where they got the 'Mass' from?). Not a single Catholic in this country is a genuine Christian. Zero. Biblically factual.
    Secondly, as a self-described agnostic, he is at the very least a hypocrite, and has invalidated the census. When someone invalidates their own opinion (agnostic=deity/no deity, unknown or unknowable either way, Christian (or RC) =Old Testament half true, New Testament completely true), their opinion holds no weight.
    Thirdly, marty1985, agnosticism isn't an intellectual position to be used as a crutch to walk bandy-legged back to the "light" of thoughtless befeckery.
    Even if he described himself as an agnostic theist, the fact that he would describe himself as that, means he is not a Catholic. Because that would be...?
    Yes, very good... Against the rules.

    That totally belonged in the other thread, as does much of this discussion. Sorry.

    On-topic: insane to think that it's taken this long for any of our many government parties to walk down the only reasonable road. Resiliently stupid, it seems.


  • #85
    FouxDaFaFa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,850 ✭✭✭FouxDaFaFa


    Preparation for the sacraments takes up so much class time. I came out of primary school knowing all my prayers and how to stand in church but I could barely multiply fractions.
    It's time that could be better spent. It wouldn't take much for children to prepare outside of school with their parents or at their church.


  • #86
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    FouxDaFaFa wrote: »
    Preparation for the sacraments takes up so much class time. I came out of primary school knowing all my prayers and how to stand in church but I could barely multiply fractions.
    It's time that could be better spent. It wouldn't take much for children to prepare outside of school with their parents or at their church.
    We use to get a slap for not knowing them. Every so often the parish priest would come in and fire a few questions at us before the big day when the Bishop would come around. I still have some of the questions at the back of my mind.


  • #87
    TiGeR KiNgS
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭TiGeR KiNgS


    This is one major cock block for many a priest.


  • #88
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    marty1985 wrote: »
    I'm not going to deny historical fact for the sake of aiming vitriol at the church. We weren't much more than a developing country for a long time with abject poverty and emigration on a mass scale, and to think that another institution would have stepped in to voluntarily run our education system is being very simplistic. Even in the new independent Ireland the country was strapped for a tax base and the priests and nuns and religious orders provided education voluntarily. The government didn't have the money or the infrastructure to take control, that would take time. The simple fact is that a lot of my ancestors were educated by religious men and women because they were the only ones who provided an education to poor people.

    I don't think the church should have so much control over education, and Diarmuid Martin has said the church would welcome more diverse running of primary schools to reflect religious trends in society. They are the ones who can no longer afford it.

    You're ignoring the fact that the Catholic church fought a long, hard battle to gain control over the teaching of Irish children - and children worldwide.

    This was done for a reason - and it certainly wasn't out of the kindness of their hearts... and it definitely wasn't the case of an institution voluntarily stepping in to lend a hand - the Church used education as a means to an end and that end was to indoctrine people into their religion.. in essence, to gain control.

    Sure, they taught a few people along the way, but that was more of a by product. The end result to them - to control the masses through their religion - was far more important than that.

    I think your suggestion that they stepped in just to teach the poor little children is a hell of a lot more "simplistic" than you'd have us believe.


  • #89
    Johro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭Johro


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Removing Communion and Confirmation preparation from the school day, and changes to laws that allow schools restrict places to children of their own faith, have been recommended in a blueprint for the primary education system.

    No harm and about time.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/proposal-to-limit-churchs-role-in-schools-190009.html
    It's definitely about time. My nieces go to a school where anything the teachers want to do has to be okayed by the parish priest, it's f#ckin archaic. Religion should be kept out if education altogether, it's nothing short of indoctrination. Let kids make up their own minds when they're old enough to understand religion, not hammer it into their heads so much they feel afraid or guilty to have an original thought.


  • #90
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 99,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    perhaps some Sunday schools should be setup :P


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  • #91
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    perhaps some Sunday schools should be setup :P

    Most independent churches have them and they would run concurrent with the Sunday service. Its also a good idea because it keeps kids occupied.


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