Proposal to limit Catholic Church’s role in primary schools.

marty1985 · 10-04-2012 11:27AM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

To break the children of Ireland free from the bondage of this corrupt institutionalized religious slavery is worth any price.

In 2012, It's hard to know which side has the bigger persecution complex.

goose2005 · 10-04-2012 11:43AM

marty1985 wrote: »

Before this turns into the usual atheist circle jerk, haven't the catholic church (without whom most of our ancestors would've gone uneducated, to be fair) already said that they want a reform like this?

No. Schools were funded by taking collections from locals; whether this was carried out by churches or by state taxation, the schools would have been built anyway. Teachers' salaries have always been paid by taxpayers. In 1830, when the national school system was set up, it was intended to be religiously mixed, but bishops of both stripes put a stop to that.

Bambi wrote: »

I'm all for kicking the religious orders out of the education system on two conditions:

1) This state actually starts picking up the tab for educating its citizens

It already does.

2) We don't go replacing religious indoctrination with social indoctrination, which is what Ruairí and the other social engineers are gunning for

Really?

Min · 10-04-2012 11:54AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

How do you know that our ancestors would have gone uneducated without the Catholic Church?

That's like saying that Tuesday would have been called Wednesday if someone had not already named it Wednesday - ie., complete bollox.

The penal laws banned education to Catholics, Catholics made sure they got the education they needed through hedge schools - exclusively Catholic schools.
This is the basis for so many Catholic schools in this country, the Catholic church is the biggest provider of education in the world outside of government provided education.

I Heart Internet · 10-04-2012 12:08PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

To break the children of Ireland free from the bondage of this corrupt institutionalized religious slavery is worth any price.

Sounds epic :rolleyes:

Run_to_da_hills · 10-04-2012 12:11PM

marty1985 wrote: »

In 2012, It's hard to know which side has the bigger persecution complex.

I would rather see no religion thought in schools than to have institutionalized religion.

If parents want their kids to have a religious education they should send them to private or Sunday schools .

partyatmygaff · 10-04-2012 12:19PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

To break the children of Ireland free from the bondage of this corrupt institutionalized religious slavery is worth any price.

Fight the power man.

Your post brought back all the memories of my primary school days where instead of actually learning we were beaten with a rusty mace and sent down the mines to mine for gold to make chalices for the pope.

Seachmall · 10-04-2012 12:23PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If parents want their kids to have a religious education they should send them to private or Sunday schools .

It really boggles the mind as to why this idea is controversial for so many.

suicide_circus · 10-04-2012 12:25PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Fight the power man.

Your post brought back all the memories of my primary school days where instead of actually learning we were beaten with a rusty mace and sent down the mines to mine for gold to make chalices for the pope.

Ah yes, good times.

I Heart Internet · 10-04-2012 12:28PM

Heard John Coolihan this morning on the radio. He seems like a man threading a very thin line. In a sense, he's trying to give everyone what they want and that's going to be very difficult.

Only scanned the report but the areas (47 I think) that they propose to look at with an idea to transfer from the patronage of a church to A.N. Other seem sensible enough.

What, imho, I think an awful lot of people are underestimating is the degree of unwillingness you will find in most schools/communities to any change in patronage. On internet boards and barstools it's not difficult to find a consensus for "taking all the schools off the church" or "kicking religion out of schools". I suspect schools and their communities might be a different story. I know this is not a "real reason" but people don't like change, and won't want to see change that they suspect MIGHT change the quality of their children's education (however they imagine this might happen).

These are fairly reasonabe proposals although I think the wider recommendations of telling e.g. catholic schools that they can't prepare children for sacraments or a church of ireland school that it must also place statues of hundu gods in its classrooms are steps too far. Divestment of schools is one thing - dismantling of a schools ethos while allowing it to retain a nominal religious patronage is underhanded.

mikemac1 · 10-04-2012 12:38PM

While transfers are under consideration by bishops, the group appointed last year by Education Minister Ruairi Quinn has gone furthest in its recommendations in relation to schools in areas where new patronage options are unlikely for families.

Such a top down approach

The minister, his group and the bishops deciding this between themselves

Do ordinary people get a say at all?
If there is a proposal for the school in your parish how about letting the people in the parish decide what to do.

It's their school too

Paparazzo · 10-04-2012 12:40PM

Seachmall wrote: »

It really boggles the mind as to why this idea is controversial for so many.

God forbid the parents have to put any effort in bringing up their kids as Catholic.

I Heart Internet · 10-04-2012 12:43PM

Seachmall wrote: »

It really boggles the mind as to why this idea is controversial for so many.

Its controversial because

a) That's not the way it is at the moment or within living memory. While this isn't a sound, logical reason for it, it is probably the most important. People are very wary of change.

b) While you may disagree, it makes logical sense for many that a primary school belonging to, under the patronage and management of a local church community (the parish) would provide religious education along the lines of that local parish along with the three Rs. Many would argue that if the local church doesn't pay the bills and the teachers wages that this is unreasonable. Others would say different.

So if your mind is boggled as to why its controversial for some, I suspect you are only looking at one side of the argument. This new report seems very good in that it seems to delve into both sides of the debate, historical stuff, etc.

I Heart Internet · 10-04-2012 12:48PM

mikemac1 wrote: »

Such a top down approach

The minister, his group and the bishops deciding this between themselves

Do ordinary people get a say at all?
If there is a proposal for the school in your parish how about letting the people in the parish decide what to do.

It's their school too

In fairness, they have to start somewhere pulling together a list of potential areas.

The report mentions questionnaires to current school parents and pre-school parents.

I think it's important to canvass a broad opinion in communities. The future of particular schools should NOT be in the gift of just CURRENT parents or teachers - or worse still, politicians or bishops.

KeithAFC · 10-04-2012 01:05PM

marty1985 wrote: »

I'm not going to deny historical fact for the sake of aiming vitriol at the church. We weren't much more than a developing country for a long time with abject poverty and emigration on a mass scale, and to think that another institution would have stepped in to voluntarily run our education system is being very simplistic. Even in the new independent Ireland the country was strapped for a tax base and the priests and nuns and religious orders provided education voluntarily. The government didn't have the money or the infrastructure to take control, that would take time. The simple fact is that a lot of my ancestors were educated by religious men and women because they were the only ones who provided an education to poor people.

I don't think the church should have so much control over education, and Diarmuid Martin has said the church would welcome more diverse running of primary schools to reflect religious trends in society. They are the ones who can no longer afford it.

Why does the school need to have a religious backbone to it though? Surely you can have proper schools up and running which are secular in nature. Leave the religion at the door so to speak.

The Catholic church still has a grip on the Irish Republic because it has a grip on the schools and the young people of the country. It is no wonder to me why the census results recently still had a high percentage saying yes to Catholicism because a lot of people are just brought up to think like the church.

I don't think religious studies should be banned or anything but it is pretty useless now when it comes to getting a job (Ironic, I know :pac:), so why not just focus more on subjects which will improve the country and job prospects for citizens?

eblistic · 10-04-2012 01:23PM

This report seems to strongly point out that the demand for alternatives to denominational catholic primary schools is out there and not being met. It's been there for a long time. These changes are long overdue. So what is the rationale given for the slow, softly-softly approach, as opposed to just getting on with it?

Winty · 10-04-2012 01:34PM

If a child is a student at a religious school they can study whatever fairy tail is in fashion but students at a Republic of Ireland state school should be taught skills for life not some make believe after life fantasy.

The Republic of Ireland should have nothing to do with any religion.

Knasher · 10-04-2012 01:37PM

conorhal wrote: »

No problem with these particular reforms as long as minister quinn is prepared to go into the Islamic school in Clonskeagh and inform them that this applies to them also (they are in a constant and flagrent breach of teaching standards and curriculum adherence as it stands).

conorhal wrote: »

I had to dig around a bit, it seems that nobody really likes to report what goes on there, even I have to admit that what I've heard is second hand from a friend of a friend that's connected to the school, but what I've heard tends to gel exactly with the headlines (listed below) which is that they place is little more than Koran study group that pays scant attention to any part of the the curriculum that it deems 'un-Islamic' (which it turns out seems to be a lot of it), I've no idea of who's site this is however:

http://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/in-schools/

Muslim school to face State probe on misallocation of funs
Unqualified principal at Muslim school for four years
Too much time spent on Koran
Fears extremism could flourish
Department inspectors find inadequate pupil records kept

I haven't read the website you linked to, so perhaps the titles are a little misleading. But if islamic schools are facing state probes or inspectors are reporting inadequate records, it sounds a lot like Quinn is going into islamic schools and telling them the rules apply to them too.

Winty · 10-04-2012 01:38PM

Min wrote: »

The penal laws banned education to Catholics, Catholics made sure they got the education they needed through hedge schools - exclusively Catholic schools.

Incorrect

It was not only Catholics that suffered under penal Laws, Presbyterians also suffered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_Laws_(Ireland)

The term Penal Laws in Ireland (Irish: Na Péindlíthe) were a series of laws imposed under English and later British rule that sought to discriminate against Roman Catholics and Protestant dissenters

I Heart Internet · 10-04-2012 02:09PM

Winty wrote: »

.... but students at a Republic of Ireland state school should be taught skills for life not some make believe after life fantasy.

There's no such thing as a "Republic of Ireland state school" but whatever.

the_syco · 10-04-2012 02:11PM

goose2005 wrote: »

No. Schools were funded by taking collections from locals; whether this was carried out by churches or by state taxation, the schools would have been built anyway. Teachers' salaries have always been paid by taxpayers.

I have to call bollox on this. The church had taught our ancestors in the past, but it's now time for the church to leave the schools as they not only unable to control their priests from kiddie fiddling, but they moved them around and didn't help the state police until they were backed into a corner.

KeithAFC wrote: »

Why does the school need to have a religious backbone to it though? Surely you can have proper schools up and running which are secular in nature. Leave the religion at the door so to speak.

Back in the day when the english were around, the Oranges got education, the Irish didn't, so the RC church popped in and educated the Irish, to prevent the Irish from becoming a "soup-taker".

I Heart Internet wrote: »

There's no such thing as a "Republic of Ireland state school" but whatever.

He may be getting mixed up with the RoI state sponsored school.

Dyr · 10-04-2012 02:17PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

WIt is no wonder to me why the census results recently still had a high percentage saying yes to Catholicism

Thats more because the mammy/daddy fill out the census form.

I'd bet my old man filled out that all his kids are still at home just so he could stick us all down as catholics :pac:

If you stuck a church levy on religious people I bet you'd see some fairly sweeping secularisation happening be the new time.

Seachmall · 10-04-2012 02:22PM

Bambi wrote: »

Thats more because the mammy/daddy fill out the census form.

Aye, during the census night I gave the form a look over after the mother filled it out.

Still a Catholic in her eyes apparently, although I corrected it on the form.

COYW · 10-04-2012 02:30PM

Bambi wrote: »

If you stuck a church levy on religious people I bet you'd see some fairly sweeping secularisation happening be the new time.

Agree to a point. Nothing like money to focus the Irish mind. A tax on our individual incomes towards the running of the church would sort out an awful lot of the messing. Personally, I don't think you would see 'sweeping secularisation' but a certain percentage of the population would avoiding selecting RC on the form. An awful lot of people will still tick the box so they can go to the church for the big events. (wedding, funeral, baptism, confirmation)

Biggins · 10-04-2012 03:22PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

...Have they fcuked up? Yes, regularly. And still do. But I still think this country owes them an awful lot Despite the hateful rantings of some.

A lot of people do owe them much - however I am disappointed at the speed, utter dragging out period of time which they are implementing this process.

They might just start in a year!
Daftness.

Ghost Buster · 10-04-2012 03:36PM

Bambi wrote: »

I'm all for kicking the religious orders out of the education system on two conditions:

1) This state actually starts picking up the tab for educating its citizens

2) We don't go replacing religious indoctrination with social indoctrination, which is what Ruairí and the other social engineers are gunning for

1) You do know that the state and not the church funds catholic schools?
2) Not sure what the heck you mean here but seeing ass everyone lives in society what is wrong with social indoctrination (what ever that is!)

Ghost Buster · 10-04-2012 03:39PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

But people will bury their heads in the sand and ignore it Conor. As they always do. I wonder if the education system in Islamic countries is being adjusted to allow Christian teaching? I doubt it somehow.

Implying that ireland is a Catholic Country in the same way which it isnt . Would you like it to be thus?

Ghost Buster · 10-04-2012 03:43PM

Seachmall wrote: »

It really boggles the mind as to why this idea is controversial for so many.

Well personally Im prepared to put in the time after school with Speech and Drama, Gaelic, Soccar, Guitar lessons, Irish dancing, karate and pony riding but I draw the line at saving their immortal souls and guaranteeing them their eternal rewards with The Lord in Paradise. Im a busy man.

Einhard · 10-04-2012 03:44PM

Seachmall wrote: »

It really boggles the mind as to why this idea is controversial for so many.

I don't think that's the controversial proposal, so much as the idea that the Catholic Church did absolutely nothing of value in this country, that they didn't educate a single person, or that they were involved in slavery. I mean, I'm an atheist and a teacher, and the sooner we have religious instruction (as opposed to religious education) out of schools the better, but some of the statements in this thread are hyperbolic BS.

Freddie59 · 10-04-2012 04:03PM

Einhard wrote: »

I don't think that's the controversial proposal, so much as the idea that the Catholic Church did absolutely nothing of value in this country, that they didn't educate a single person, or that they were involved in slavery. I mean, I'm an atheist and a teacher, and the sooner we have religious instruction (as opposed to religious education) out of schools the better, but some of the statements in this thread are hyperbolic BS.

Oh the irony.............:D

Knight who says Meh · 10-04-2012 04:10PM

Doc wrote: »

I can’t see anything wrong with any of these reforms. It may be difficult to implement them though given the number of religious orders, priests, nuns and brothers involved in education. In my opinion there should be a separation between religion and sate and that should translate into education.

(I am agnostic but if asked what religion I am I would probably still answer Roman Catholic as it is how I was raised)[/QUOTE]
The single most head wrecking attitude around. Makes me want to pour hot water in my ears!!!!!!!
Did you also tick 'Catholic' on the census? Surmising that you did then i must say that you are a hypocrite to be looking for separation of church and state whilst falsely inflating the stats on the census by answering a question posed as "What are you now" as a "What were you told you are as a child" question.

Proposal to limit Catholic Church’s role in primary schools.

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