Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Munster men: Would you drop ROG yet?

I don't see that we've any choice but conversely, he can still be the bench option for Ireland as Ireland have what Munster lack, powerful carriers in SOB and Ferris and a creative player at 13 and a counterattacker at 15.

On that actually, i felt sorry for Jones today, he's just a yard off the pace and shouldn't have been out there. I imagine Afoa will be cited for the spear/tip tackle on him.

thomond2006 wrote: »

To use a cliché, they're very good Pro12 players and decent Heineken Cup players. Pretty much as you say.

Then again we won 2 Heineken Cups with the likes of Dowling, no disrespect to the guy, I was a big fan of his!

Dowling was very different. He was a big game player with a brain. Hurley is a big guy who's half afraid to use his size whereas Dowling was actually quite a small guy who got stuck in. Mostly though, Dowling was a smart player, Hurley and Murphy aren't.

Looking forward to a new coach with fresh ideas because we have decent talent coming through


Still think we need an NIQ 10 next year. The Keatley experiment has failed miserably

A young ten like Cruden would be perfect to get our new backline moving next year. I'd also like to see JJ as an out and out 10 in time too

Going through our known squad for next year it's something like

LH - Horan, Wian, Kilcoyne, J Ryan. Wian is a very good prop so will be first choice. Horan is on his way out. Ryan and Kilcoyne are extremely unproven and should have had more time this season. No point saying they are any good or not without seeing them in the league. Seemingly Darragh Hurley may have to retire due to injuries, shame because he had it all.

Hooker - Varley, Sherry, Henry. Fogs is rumoured to be off to France, Flannery is retired. For me, Sherry is the front runner here, lost most of this season and while his throwing was excellent today, he has a lot more to give in the loose, not that he did badly. Varley is a solid pro, average thrower, average scrummager, decent in the loose. Henry is an unknown quantity at league level.

TH - Botha, Archer, Ryan, Cotter, (Condon?, Borlase?). Botha will be first choice again, Archer is light years behind him and the rest haven't been given enough gametime to judge. Condon and Cotter have a good reps in the AIL.

Second Rows - DOC, POC, Ryan, Nagle, Foley, Holland, Hayes - MOD is rumoured to be retiring, regardless he'll probably drop below Nagle and Foley provided the two injury prone players can put some form together.

Back row (good grief)
6 - POM, Ryan,Leamy, DOCv2.0, TOD, Holland - Leamy is in trouble with injuries and it's foolish to think he can return to a high level. POM is a super prospect, still lacking in power. DOCv2.0 is unproven, Holland is a solid pro but not HEC level and TOD will be 25 and still not able to prove what his best position is, let alone be good enough there to demand to be played. There is definitely a case for keeping Ryan here fulltime but it's hard to shake the feeling he'd only ever be an ok backrow whereas he's a good second row.

7 - POM, TOD, Dougall, Wallace, Ronan. As above re POM and TOD, Wallace is in his mid 30's and like Leamy can't be expected to be the player he was. Ronan was having a super season but knee injury derailed it, again, hard to know how he'll come back. Don't know much about Dougall.

8 - Coughlan, Butler - One is a decent pro but not a top level player, the other is a kid who's still a little lacking in power.

Backrow overall. Munster gave Ireland's it's backrow for large parts of the last decade. Of the new guys, only POM is making match day squads and that shows both his potential and Munster's problem. We need a big carrier somewhere in the pack and we don't have any. Will continue to be a problem next season as even a year down the line may not be enough for the brighter prospects. I'd give TOD every chance to prove himself from here on out because it's make or break time for him. He wasn't bad today by any means.

Scrumhalf - Murray, Stringer, Williams, Sheridan. Realistically only Murray is up to HEC rugby. Williams is a player I like but he's too hot and cold.

Outhalf - O'Gara, Keatley, Deasy, Hanrahan. For me, it's time-up for O'Gara, flawless kicker and tactical master can't hide the passing of time. Will be interesting to see if having Downey beside him gives him a new lease of life. Keatley and Deasy are deeply flawed, but if they are what we've to work with we'll have to work with them. Hanrahan is completely unproven.

12 - Downey, Hanrahan, Smith. Like 8 it's an old pro and young prospects. Like 8, the old pro probably isn't good enough and one young prospect has a big rep but is completely unproven. Smith lost all this season to injury and surely can't be expected to answer any prayers next season. All Downey has to do next year is find a way to get the ball from O'Gara to Earls/Zebo/Jones. No one is expecting miracles.

13 - Earls, Barnes, Laulala. A position of relative strength. Earls had a good six nations, Barnes has been ok and Laulala is a solid player.

Wings - Hurley, Murphy, Howlett, Zebo, O'Dea. Hurley and Murphy are ok players, nothing special and considerably worse than the other provinces. Howlett is coming back from an awful injury, Zebo is exciting but has a lot to learn and O'Dea is unproven.

Fullback - Jones, Hurley, Murphy, Scanlon. Jones has struggled since his return, if he can get fit and stay fit he's a super prospect. As above for H & M, Scanlon is unproven.

I've probably forgotten some players but looking at our first team next year, no injuries, we've a very good front five. We've a weak backrow, weak halfbacks, relatively ok centres and potentially a good back three. We are a prop injury away from a crisis in the front 5 and we badly need to sort out the middle five. In truth we only have depth at second row and at 13. That is a very scary prospect. I was at the B&I game on friday and good as we were, most of those players are probably another season away from challenging for HEC rugby. We badly, desperately, need to get games for Kilcoyne, Ryan and Archer.

Looking again at the middle 5, we badly need a backrower who can carry. Virtually any price is worth paying. We need to sort out whatever the hell is going on with Murray's game and we need Keatley to step up and challenge O'Gara (and be given an even platform to challenge O'Gara). A carrying backrower and Downey would ease a lot of pressure on O'Gara but ideally O'Gara would be exiting gracefully soon anyhow.

My first choice team would be

Wian
Sherry
Botha
Ryan
POC
?
POM
Coughlan
Murray
Keatley
Zebo
Downey
Earls
O'Dea
Jones

Genuinely can't decide who to play at 6 (or 7, if we move POM to 6). I'd rather sink with Keatley at 10 then hang on in there with O'Gara all the while delaying the inevitable. Bring on O'Gara to close out games if needs be. Keatley is by no means the finished article, and may never be, but something has to give. I've left out guys like Howlett because it's dreaming to think he might be as good as he was, we need to plan without him (and Leamy, Wallace, Ronan etc).

It's not a bad side, but equally it's not a side that'll win a HEC, to do that we need a top class 12 and a top class addition to our backrow. Our NIQ's will be Wian, Botha, Lualala, Howlett and possibly Borlase. Even if Borlase is cut loose, whoever we bring in will be a project player, very, very few players good enough for what we need who haven't been capped already or without hope of being capped in their own country. We are really left with hoping Leamy has a lazarus like recovery, one of the young backrowers/centres has an SOB/BOD like impact or a world class player who's somehow been overlooked by his own system is discovered by ours.

We are also left relying heavily on young players throughout the team, guys like Sherry, Murray, POM, Zebo and Jones. It's tempting to say you'll win nothing with kids but we've no other choice. Imo, this comes down to the failure of the Academy from 2005 to 2008. We are bringing through so many young players now because we missed a strata of players that should have come through earlier. The avalanche has started, it's too late for the pebbles to vote, we have to back the young players now more than ever because we have no alternative.

Still don't see any point in dropping ROG until somebody better i.e. not Keatley comes along. All the calls for his head wouldn't be coming if he had won the game with another last minute drop goal or penalty. Munster's season has been destroyed by injuries - Dougie Howlett, Paul O'Connell, Conor Murray, Felix Jones, David Wallace, Keith Earls etc.etc. and we were only in the QF at all thanks to ROG's last minute efforts. There seem to be serious problems at management level and some strange contract decisions - Peter Borlase, Peter Stringer etc. I have no insider information but to this dedicated fan it looks like it is all down to the top dogs in the Munster set-up rather than individual players.

Judgement Day wrote: »

Still don't see any point in dropping ROG until somebody better i.e. not Keatley comes along. All the calls for his head wouldn't be coming if he had won the game with another last minute drop goal or penalty.

In a way, that would have been the worst thing possible for the future of Munster outhalf play. It would have been Northampton all over again except to a far higher degree. We don't know if Keatley is capable of performing to a higher standard than what ROG is currently performing to. He has never been given any significant game time with the first choice team. He got a run of games at the start of the season and looked very decent. Since then, he has had about 6 starts in 5 months with only 1 AIL appearance. An upcoming outhalf cannot survive on those scraps. He could be better but he needs time to work on his control of the game. One player is potentially becoming a better player and one isn't performing well and is on a downward curve. Time to bite the bullet.

Benny Cake wrote: »

Whatever about Keatley, Deasy is not the answer. He has shown himself to be an average RDP12 player at best. Personally, I believe the answer is a certain Ian Madigan & if the suits in Munster have any brains at all they will be making a serious play for him in the summer...

He's signed a new contract with Leinster.