Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

dougieruggie

Everyone keeps saying "I think Murray will be excellent but hes not good now"

Its been said for months now. Its getting tiring. Hes just not that good. Fair enough his poor decision making could be down to a lack of experience but his general slowness isn't and to be honest it doesnt look like its changing.

Podge_irl

dougieruggie wrote: »

Munster are crashing out of the QF and have been very lucky to qualify in the first place

Very lucky to qualify my arse.

dougieruggie

Podge_irl wrote: »

Very lucky to qualify my arse.

Two last minute drop goals. One of the most onesided refereeing performances in HC history against Northampton. two missed knocks on in that 40 build up phase to the drop goal. They were definitely lucky to qualify.

irishbucsfan

Fishooks12 wrote: »

When was this exactly?


Anything to back up the rubbish?

Top try scorer in the Magners League (twice, tied it with Earls the second time I think).

Is that good enough?

Podge_irl

dougieruggie wrote: »

Everyone keeps saying "I think Murray will be excellent but hes not good now"

Its been said for months now. Its getting tiring. Hes just not that good. Fair enough his poor decision making could be down to a lack of experience but his general slowness isn't and to be honest it doesnt look like its changing.

I think he's worse now then he was when he broke into the Munster team and that is a coaching fault. His slowness isn't to do with his passing itself, it's the time he takes to get to rucks and then assess his options. It looks to me like taking time to set up their pods is genuinely what they're going for.

Besides, he's all they've got.

CiaranMT

dougieruggie wrote: »

It's not a 'series of attacks' its the truth. Munster are crashing out of the QF and have been very lucky to qualify in the first place. Last year they didn't make it past the group stages and were even dumped out of the Amlin.

That's similar to Man U or City going out of the Europa League. Do you really think Munster cared all that much?

There are serious problems. Outside of the starting props Munster have no one. A signing is needed and in my opinion Loughney and Andreas would be perfect.

Agreed.

I think they are very lightweight in the backrow and that they need another top quality player. I mentioned McLaughlin/Ryan/Ruddock because they all can play 6 and one of them is not needed by Leinster so it makes sense to mention them.

Wally and Leamy will be back to full pace next season. That gives us them, POM, TOD, Coughlan, DOC2.0, Dryan as a 4/6, and the likes of Butler et al. We're not stuck in the backrow.

In any case, Ruddock has re-signed and Dom Ryan will be a starter next season, imo.

The only decent Irish scrumhalf right now outside of Reddan is Boss. Thats why I mentioned him. Since Leinster have Reddan they could depart with Boss. In hindsight though I should have mentioned Marshall as well who I completely forgot about.

You haven't the foggiest here.

I mentioned McFadden and O'Malley because 1. They are IQ 2.They are not starters for Leinster and could conceivably go to get gametime and 3.They are very promising players. While Munster have made 2 great signings I am looking to McFadden and O'Malley as Munster's future. I mentioned JJ Hanrahan but I don't see him as being better than McFadden.

McFadden and EOM are Leinster's future, so this is a complete non-starter and daft in any case.

Then I mentioned Carr because I feel Munster are a little bit bare in the back 3 IF Howlett does not recover from injury. Carr is a proven try scoring machine at Rabo Direct and his defence is no worse than Zebos. In my opinion he could be alot more effective than Hurley or Murphy. Its a gamble but one I think should be pursued.

Wrong. Simple as. Explained why earlier.

But yeah, see what you want. My post was about POSSIBLE signings for Munster of IRISH players. Those players are the ones that I deemed to be possible to acquire. 5 of them happen to be Leinster players and 2 of them are not. Thats just the way it is. I wasnt trying to push an agenda.

Nobody will accuse you of that. I just think you'd want to engage a bit more critical thinking before posting all this pie-in the sky stuff about Leinster donating half their squad to bolster Munster.

Fishooks12

dougieruggie wrote: »

Everyone keeps saying "I think Murray will be excellent but hes not good now"

Its been said for months now. Its getting tiring. Hes just not that good. Fair enough his poor decision making could be down to a lack of experience but his general slowness isn't and to be honest it doesnt look like its changing.

I can think of something else that's getting tiring around here

Ever occurred to you that a player needs more than "a few months" to develop? But that wouldn't fit into another attack on a Munster player from you

Murray was poor yesterday but he's shown how good he can be over the last year. He really got under Morgan Parras skin in Paris, who's arguably one of the best 9's in the world

Podge_irl

dougieruggie wrote: »

Two last minute drop goals. One of the most onesided refereeing performances in HC history against Northampton. two missed knocks on in that 40 build up phase to the drop goal. They were definitely lucky to qualify.

The two last minute drop goals weren't luck, they were very well executed. Unfortunately they were some of the only well executed plays Munster put together.

They came out of a weak group which hid some of their deficiencies that Ulster managed to exploit. But 6 wins from 6 and 10 points clear of second place doesn't happen purely through luck. Munster are still a top tier side, but they are very much at the bottom of that top tier at the moment.

Fishooks12

In my view our only long term issues at the moment are at 1 and 3 (which lets face it, every province has) and at 10

CiaranMT

Podge_irl wrote: »

Well hopefully the new coach goes over his head somewhat to sort out that mess. Having that much possession and territory and creating so little is pretty damning.

Munster's halfbacks are a serious problem. I think Murray has the potential and raw skills to become a very good player with good coaching (which he is clearly not getting) but Munster need to bite the bullet on ROG.

I'd be of the same mind.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Top try scorer in the Magners League (twice, tied it with Earls the second time I think).

Is that good enough?

As mentioned, that's one facet of the game. His numerous weaknesses have already been pointed out.

irishbucsfan

CiaranMT wrote: »

Wally and Leamy will be back to full pace next season. That gives us them, POM, TOD, Coughlan, DOC2.0, Dryan as a 4/6, and the likes of Butler et al. We're not stuck in the backrow.

Will they? How long has Leamy been trying to get back to full pace now, 3 years?

Wallace at 36 coming back from a serious knee injury could well never hit the heights again.

Hopefully Dougal can make an impact.

CiaranMT

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Will they? How long has Leamy been trying to get back to full pace now, 3 years?

Wallace at 36 coming back from a serious knee injury could well never hit the heights again.

Hopefully Dougal can make an impact.

They'll be back, then. :pac:

Fishooks12

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Will they? How long has Leamy been trying to get back to full pace now, 3 years?

Wallace at 36 coming back from a serious knee injury could well never hit the heights again.

Hopefully Dougal can make an impact.

I hope for our sake that Wally and Leamy aren't starting for us next year tbh

dougieruggie

CiaranMT wrote: »

That's similar to Man U or City going out of the Europa League. Do you really think Munster cared all that much?

Did you watch the game? Munster definitely cared. The players in the post match interviews were extremely cut up about the defeat.

Agreed.

O.K

Wally and Leamy will be back to full pace next season. That gives us them, POM, TOD, Coughlan, DOC2.0, Dryan as a 4/6, and the likes of Butler et al. We're not stuck in the backrow.

Wallace is going on 36 and theres a strong chance hes not going to return from injury anywhere close to the player he was. Leamy is injury prone and just isn't close to form. Like I said if your relying on POM,TOD,Coughlan and Butler as your backrow options then your just not going to make it in europe. Of those 4 players only one has shown he can cut it at international level. Not good enough for a backrow of a team that wants to be competing for the HC. All I am saying is that an additional signing would add a bit of weight to their backrow options. If two players get injured then Munsters backrow could conceivably be 6.DOC.2 7.TOD 8.Butler which is very weak.

You haven't the foggiest here.

Really? Whos a better scrumhalf than Boss? Peter Stringer? TOL? Murray on his current form?

McFadden and EOM are Leinster's future, so this is a complete non-starter and daft in any case.

It would admitedly be a steal. I think Leinster could cope though. Move Madigan to 12 and that offsets the loss of McFadden anyway.

Wrong. Simple as. Explained why earlier.

Why do you have no qualms about Zebo starting but don't want Carr? He'd be a great back up to have.

Nobody will accuse you of that. I just think you'd want to engage a bit more critical thinking before posting all this pie-in the sky stuff about Leinster donating half their squad to bolster Munster.

Ruddock,Boss,McFadden,EOM isn't half of Leinster's squad. None of those players are starters for Leinster and 2 of those 4 rarely even make the 22.

shuffol

Munsters backrow got beaten up yesterday, looked very lightweight, they're deficiency in that areas been masked all season as the Saints, Scarlets and Castres dont have top class backrows. Lots of young talent about but I think they could really do with a heavyweight signing for a season, take the pressure off the younger lads and ease them into the pro 12.

budhabob

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I hope for our sake that Wally and Leamy aren't starting for us next year tbh

Leamy is still young enough to be a long term backrow. Considering he was carrying a injury for quite a while fingers crossed he can come back fit and fighting. None of our current crop has his physicality.

CiaranMT

dougieruggie wrote: »

Did you watch the game? Munster definitely cared. The players in the post match interviews were extremely cut up about the defeat.

What else would you expect 10 minutes after the final whistle?

Really? Whos a better scrumhalf than Boss? Peter Stringer? TOL? Murray on his current form?

Murray is a better SH, and has the potential to be a far better SH.

It would admitedly be a steal. I think Leinster could cope though. Move Madigan to 12 and that offsets the loss of McFadden anyway.

But it's daft and never going to happen.

Why do you have no qualms about Zebo starting but don't want Carr? He'd be a great back up to have.

Age. Zebo is 22, Carr 4 years his elder. Zebo has an extra four years to add to his game.

Carr is a winger exclusively. If he's not starting he won't be on the bench. Which isn't all that useful for a back-up player.

Ruddock,Boss,McFadden,EOM isn't half of Leinster's squad. None of those players are starters for Leinster and 2 of those 4 rarely even make the 22.

23 man squads.

HEC (7 games played):

Boss has played 7, starting 3.

Ruddock has played 4, starting 1

EOM has played 5, starting 3.

McFadden has played 6, starting 5.

Rabo (19 played):

Boss:8 starts + 4 sub appearances.

Ruddock: 12+4

EOM: 12+4

McFadden: 8+1.

Remember that McFadden was on Ireland duty and injured last autumn.

EDIT: And that Boss was in NZ during the 6N.

Amazotheamazing

shuffol wrote: »

Munsters backrow got beaten up yesterday, looked very lightweight, they're deficiency in that areas been masked all season as the Saints, Scarlets and Castres dont have top class backrows. Lots of young talent about but I think they could really do with a heavyweight signing for a season, take the pressure off the younger lads and ease them into the pro 12.

Just on this, they didn't remotely get beaten up. Munster had 70% or more of the ball. That's a sign the backrow is doing something right. The problem is the ball carriers we have aren't very good. POC isn't an SOB like carrier, neither is Coughlan. Add in a non breaking 10 and Mafi and it's easy to shut us down. If we had, let's say, Cian Healy as a carrier we'd have been ok yesterday, imo. We don't need 8 new forwards, we need one very good one.

And, we also need to stop this pod system and tell Murray to pass the ball to moving players, not static ones. No matter who you pass to, if they are static they are at a disadvantage.

CiaranMT

Agreed Amazo.

Munster's problem was a complete lack of awareness in attack. Has been a problem for a long, long time now.

Compare Leinster's depth in attack to how flat and static Munster were, and you'll see where we're going wrong.

Nothing to do with the backrow.

murr23

Dougie:
On TOD - Again he's gone from 24 to nearly 26 in a few days on this site?? That was a quick year

On "I mentioned JJ Hanrahan but I don't see him as being better than McFadden" - He's 6years younger, I think he's shown more at u20 level than McFadden did. That's all we can compare them at at this stage. JJ is just beginning his career. We'll see in 6 years how their careers have gone. Anyway one's a 12 (possible 10) and the other is a 13.

On Carr v Zebo - Neither are the best defensively but at 22 Zebo has more potential. And Luke O'Dea skinned Carr in the A game so I'll stick with the 2 of them thanks very much.

shuffol

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Just on this, they didn't remotely get beaten up. Munster had 70% or more of the ball. That's a sign the backrow is doing something right. The problem is the ball carriers we have aren't very good. POC isn't an SOB like carrier, neither is Coughlan. Add in a non breaking 10 and Mafi and it's easy to shut us down. If we had, let's say, Cian Healy as a carrier we'd have been ok yesterday, imo. We don't need 8 new forwards, we need one very good one.

And, we also need to stop this pod system and tell Murray to pass the ball to moving players, not static ones. No matter who you pass to, if they are static they are at a disadvantage.

Ulster were content to play without the ball and soak up the pressure, Ferris and Henry made a mess of Munsters ball all game. Bossed the breakdown IMO, penalty count between the sides shows this.

ulster won through pure heart the fact that they made so many tackles and soaked up so much pressure proves it i dont think muster where blown off the pitch i just think ulster left everything on the pitch and munster didnt
its the type of win munster routinely got a few years ago but they dont seem capable of that type of win anymore.

molloyjh

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

And, we also need to stop this pod system and tell Murray to pass the ball to moving players, not static ones. No matter who you pass to, if they are static they are at a disadvantage.

Sounds distinctly like another team I know...

Would agree with this though. The platform was set as can be seen from the territory and possession. The issue wasn't in the forwards really. Yes a strong ball carrier would help, but even with that you need players on his shoulders to make full use of whatever breaks he can make. If the backs aren't doing the business then it makes it near impossible to get the scores.

yosser hughes

CiaranMT wrote: »

Murray is a better SH, and has the potential to be a far better SH.

Murray is not a better scrum half than Reddan and I'd have Boss and Marshall ahead of him as well.Loads of people here are talking about his potential. Kidney sees a player with potential as his first choice scrum half! I think it's bizarre that he has been fast tracked to the first choice position.
Munster can do what they like but he should not be playing for Ireland.

PhatPiggins

budhabob wrote: »

Leamy is still young enough to be a long term backrow. Considering he was carrying a injury for quite a while fingers crossed he can come back fit and fighting. None of our current crop has his physicality.

Realistically Leamy is done as a first choice pick for the HC. Injury has robbed him of a lot of that physicality he was famed for. He's certainly not as mobile as he used to be and he's been solidly average the last 3 years.

skregs

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Murray was poor yesterday but he's shown how good he can be over the last year. He really got under Morgan Parras skin in Paris, who's arguably one of the best 9's in the world

Parra is a grand total of 5 months older than him and has been first choice for France for 2 years now. Ben Youngs is younger than Murray and far far better. Genia became starting SH for the Wallabies younger than Murray is now, and was much much better than him.

How long exactly are you going to give Murray to develop? In terms of current talent, he's below Reddan, Boss and Marshall and arguably worse that TOL and Stringer.

But Murray is adored because he's a big guy, and everyone thinks he'll be the next Mike Phillips.
Let him play for Ireland when he becomes the next Mike Phillips, until then, Reddan should have the jersey

Clegg

The irony is that Mike Phillips is technically, a very poor scrum half.

He dithers over the ball, crabs with his passing and isn't very accurate with his throwing. That isn't the road that Munster and Ireland should be looking to go down with Murray.

Phillips works well for Wales because he can tie in forwards at ruck time with his physical presence. Then the ball gets whipped out to the massive Welsh backs who can wreak havoc on stretched defences. Ireland doesn't have the physicality of the Welsh backs. We should be looking for quick ball for Murray so he can give it to Sexton who can then unleash our backs.

He should be told to work on his passing and his speed at ruck time.

PhatPiggins

skregs wrote: »

Parra is a grand total of 5 months older than him and has been first choice for France for 2 years now. Ben Youngs is younger than Murray and far far better. Genia became starting SH for the Wallabies younger than Murray is now, and was much much better than him.

How long exactly are you going to give Murray to develop? In terms of current talent, he's below Reddan, Boss and Marshall and arguably worse that TOL and Stringer.

But Murray is adored because he's a big guy, and everyone thinks he'll be the next Mike Phillips.
Let him play for Ireland when he becomes the next Mike Phillips, until then, Reddan should have the jersey

I'm sick to death of the Murray debate and have no real opinion on him either way but all the players you name above have far more experience as they were given a chance at an earlier age. Murray has been a first choicer for about 18 months. Age hasn't a lot to do with it in this instance. The 'if you're good enough, you're old enough' rule doesn't seem to apply in Munster

Oh and Reddan should definitely be starting for Ireland

Hagz

Clegg wrote: »

The irony is that Mike Phillips is technically, a very poor scrum half.

He dithers over the ball, crabs with his passing and isn't very accurate with his throwing. I'm really not sure if Munster and Ireland should be looking to go down that route with Murray.

He should be told to work on his passing and his speed at ruck time.

Phillips would be the Lions 9 if it was this summer. I'd love Murray to be the next Mike Phillips.

Clegg

Phillips will probably be the Lions scrum half next year. But there really aren't many quality options at scrumhalf in Britain or Ireland.

Anyway, I believe that a scrum half like Mike Phillips wouldn't significantly improve Ireland as we lack the monster backs to take the advantage that Phillips offers.

He sucks defenders in at ruck time and then that leaves a stretched defence for the massive welsh backs to run at. We don't have many massive backs to use this strategy. We need quick ball with accurate passing. Something that Mike Phillips doesn't really provide.