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'Traveller housing not wanted here,' say locals

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Comments

  • #62
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    I will give my solution to the traveller halting site issue. Its simple. The theory is

    1) Travellers are badly treated by society.
    2) We need to give them better facilities and areas to live in.

    And yet - this simple theory never leads to the obvious conclusion.

    Put all traveller sites in the rich areas. Mostly Dublin, mostly south side, mostly the rich. Dalkey, Howth, Ballsbridge. And so on. Top 10%, and top 10% only.

    There are a number of reasons for this.

    1) Poorer and lower middle class areas have only so many resources, in schools, in council facilities etc. Pushing more human poverty on these areas is unfair.
    2) If travellers are poor because of their surrounding environment ( as well as their own sites etc.) then it will help alleviate the poverty if the environment of the travellers improves. In theory, of course.
    3) It is unfair to blame "society" for ill treatment of travellers, if only some of society are charged with dealing with it, and that some is the bottom 50-60% who are least resourced to dealing with it.
    4) It seems that a lot of the whining about the "racism" comes from traditionally elite institutions ( like Trinity) from where the great and good who opine then decamp in the top areas, ghettoed by distance from the rest of us. Not just travellers. ( the main reason to pay more to live in an elite area is to live beside the kind of people who live in an elite area. The rich want to ghettoise themselves from nurses, IT workers, teachers, and office workers, and whine about the lower middle, and working class hostility to, and ghettoisation from travellers).

    So far when halting sites are mentioned, it always Tallaght, or the poorest country towns and the poor parts of those country towns, who seem to get sites. Lets distribute them more equitably.


  • #63
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Dubit10 wrote: »
    :pac: Irish people are the best, the same people who would die of shock if you called every Nigerian in the country "scammers" feel it's okay to label all travellers scum or the such. Loltastic

    Race is based on genetics. Culture is based on choices.


  • #64
    Smeggy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 329 ✭✭Smeggy


    Freddie59 wrote: »

    A few of them called to our door on Friday, stating they were "working on behalf of the neighbours":rolleyes: power hosing driveways. When I said no, an aggressive streak developed. Grand - I could tell them to eff off and they left. What if it were an elderly person living on their own?

    .

    That is exactly what happened to my aunt who is in her 80s, living alone, a group of travellers called and offered to power hose the outside of her house... They were very insistent so she agreed.. They were there for half a day, charged her 4 grand for the pleasure, even drove her into the bank to get it! This is the kind of behaviour that adds to my intolerance of travellers!! Cal me racist if you want but I have no time for any of them


  • #65
    juan.kerr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭juan.kerr


    They certainly don't do themselves any favours.

    I have only ever had one encounter with the Travellers, which involved me being run off the road, which was pleasant.


  • #66
    MadYaker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    I work in a shop at weekends when I'm not in college and quite a few travellers visit the shop. Based on experience I would say about 30% are sound and the rest are very unpleasant people, I could use other words to give a more accurate description but id probably get banned. They are constantly trying to steal stuff or shouting at eachother or letting their rabble of completely uncontrollable children run riot in the shop. They just don't give a sh!t about anyone and think they can get away with anything.

    I think they are having a bit of an identity crisis, they can't live today the way they did 2 generations ago, as a nomadic people who helped on a farms fixing stuff etc. Their old ways of life are gone but they haven't blended into the rest of irish society. It seems to me that they kind of don't fit in anymore.


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  • #67
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 33,055 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    MagicSean wrote: »
    Race is based on genetics. Culture is based on choices.

    Nobody chooses their culture.

    Travelling culture, like any other culture, is neither inferior nor superior to that of the settled Irish, its just different. The level to which their culture is de-humanised is shocking, they're the only ethnic minority that it's socially acceptable to openly deride. We've even passed laws which more or less criminalise their whole culture.

    I seriously doubt a tv show called My Big Fat Black Wedding would get aired.


  • #68
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Nobody chooses their culture.

    Can choose to leave
    Travelling culture, like any other culture, is neither inferior nor superior to that of the settled Irish, its just different.

    Rubbish, this is nonsense cultural relativism.
    The level to which their culture is de-humanised is shocking, they're the only ethnic minority that it's socially acceptable to openly deride. We've even passed laws which more or less criminalise their whole culture.

    What laws?
    I seriously doubt a tv show called My Big Fat Black Wedding would get aired.

    Thats in the UK.


  • #69
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Nobody chooses their culture.

    I come from a culture known for heavy drinking yet I don't drink.
    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Travelling culture, like any other culture, is neither inferior nor superior to that of the settled Irish, its just different. The level to which their culture is de-humanised is shocking, they're the only ethnic minority that it's socially acceptable to openly deride. We've even passed laws which more or less criminalise their whole culture.

    You mean the equality laws? They did pretty well there. Or do you mean the laws banning trespassing?
    Mickeroo wrote: »
    I seriously doubt a tv show called My Big Fat Black Wedding would get aired.

    Again, the difference between a persons colour, which is genetic, and their culture, which is not. A persons colour plays no part in their choices, their background does.


  • #70
    old_aussie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Ireland's gone to the dogs travellers

    Gotta luv the EU


  • #71
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 33,055 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    Can choose to leave

    How does one leave a culture exactly? You can change aspects of yourself of course but you'll never entirely shake off the cultural programming you've undergone through out your life.
    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    Rubbish, this is nonsense cultural relativism.

    no, its nonsense to think your culture is superior to any other. Its also perfectly normal to think it though in fairness, thats how culutres survive afterall.
    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    What laws?

    The ones mentioned in this article: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0321/1224313640600.html

    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    Thats in the UK.

    So? Point still stands, we get those channels here too.


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  • #72
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Nobody chooses their culture.

    No, but they can choose to leave. Given the educational resources now placed at the disposal of travellers it would seem a pretty clear choice.
    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Travelling culture, like any other culture, is neither inferior nor superior to that of the settled Irish, its just different.

    Yes, I don't have horses in my back garden or race sulkies along a dual carriageway. It's called socially acceptable behaviour.
    Mickeroo wrote: »
    The level to which their culture is de-humanised is shocking, they're the only ethnic minority that it's socially acceptable to openly deride. We've even passed laws which more or less criminalise their whole culture.

    Dehumanised? How so? Travellers nowadays are provided with every State resource available, with their children being collected in minibuses and taxis for school, while members of the neighbouring communities have to make their own way there with their children.
    Mickeroo wrote: »
    I seriously doubt a tv show called My Big Fat Black Wedding would get aired.

    With the blessing of travellers themselves. They were loving it. They could have chosen NOT to do it.


  • #73
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    Travellers who get houses are no longer travellers - They have settled. If they want all the benefits their "culture" entitles them to, they should have to live in the caravan and travel.


  • #74
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 33,055 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    MagicSean wrote: »
    Again, the difference between a persons colour, which is genetic, and their culture, which is not. A persons colour plays no part in their choices, their background does.

    Sorry, I'll change it to My Big Fat African Wedding then, you know the point I was making.


  • #75
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Deleted User wrote: »
    They're just like settled folk. There's nice ones and ar$eholes.

    As i've already asked: what is the ratio of each in both communities?


  • #76
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Sorry, I'll change it to My Big Fat African Wedding then, you know the point I was making.

    My Big Fat Greek Wedding? The Original "Big Fat" buzz?

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0259446/


  • #77
    Paulie Gualtieri
    Closed Accounts Posts: 420 ✭✭Paulie Gualtieri


    passed through colloney yesterday , so dont know what the hassle is , its a kip , little boy racer town , retards with dump valves on a 97 micra , and muppets with frying pan exhausts ,

    so maybe the site will add a touch of class to to the place.


  • #78
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    How does one leave a culture exactly?
    You walk.


  • #79
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    The State had “effectively institutionally criminalised” this section of society, he said, by introducing the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994, which strengthened anti-trespass laws.

    And this is to be welcomed

    Unless you want to go back to the old days of spending thousands in getting injunctions or paying slightly less to the boyos in a bribe to shift them on.
    Why should a landowner have to pursue a civil case to shift on trespassers.

    They changed it to a criminal offence and we're better off having it this way.

    Travellers weren't the only reason the law was changed, a lot of it was to due to with compo culture and claims from trespassers.
    People used to write that we were second only to the USA in claims and suing, wasn't that long ago
    “Somebody should tell the Irish Government that this is not the Eurovision song contest. On this issue you need to get nul points.”

    Condescending comment from an arrogant British lawyer


  • #80
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 33,055 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    no, but they can choose to leave. Given the educational resources now placed at the disposal of travellers it would seem a pretty clear choice.

    Leave what exactly? THey can settle, go to school etc. They'll still be regarded as settled travellers rather than just settled people.

    Freddie59 wrote: »
    Yes, I don't have horses in my back garden or race sulkies along a dual carriageway. It's called socially acceptable behaviour.

    It is socially aceptable within travelling culture to do those things.
    Freddie59 wrote: »
    Dehumanised? How so?

    The title of thread says it all really
    Freddie59 wrote: »
    With the blessing of travellers themselves. They were loving it. They could have chosen NOT to do it.

    This is true, but it doesn't make the show any less abhorrent imo. It only exists to make a freak show of a minority.


  • #81
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 33,055 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    My Big Fat Greek Wedding? The Original "Big Fat" buzz?

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0259446/

    Yea a rom com based on the writers own life. Similar only in name.


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  • #82
    theTinker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 638 ✭✭✭theTinker


    Smeggy wrote: »
    That is exactly what happened to my aunt who is in her 80s, living alone, a group of travellers called and offered to power hose the outside of her house... They were very insistent so she agreed.. They were there for half a day, charged her 4 grand for the pleasure, even drove her into the bank to get it! This is the kind of behaviour that adds to my intolerance of travellers!! Cal me racist if you want but I have no time for any of them

    4,000 for cleaning her driveway?


  • #83
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    How does one leave a culture exactly? You can change aspects of yourself of course but you'll never entirely shake off the cultural programming you've undergone through out your life.

    You leave the culture. It's simple.
    no, its nonsense to think your culture is superior to any other. Its also perfectly normal to think it though in fairness, thats how culutres survive after all.

    Nope, moral relativism again. People who go out to work are more moral than people who choose not to, and live off the people who go out to work.

    Your definition of culture could defend the Mafia, or Bankers - there is a baker culture of greed, people are born to it, who're we to condemn them. There is a mafia culture of greed and criminality, people are born to it, who are we to condemn them?
    The ones mentioned in this article: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0321/1224313640600.html

    A law which prohibited an illegal activity in most countries, and this muppet says that it is "targeting" a specific group? Its a law which applies to all groups.
    So? Point still stands, we get those channels here too.

    Nothing to do with Irish attitudes to travellers. By they way I live in London where the usage of the word p*ikey is widespread, funny enough even amongst liberals. Even in this thread, and in general life in Ireland, the middle classes don't use the K word.

    We do discrimiante on where we put the housing, as I mentioned before. Funny enough that is not really mentioned.


  • #84
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Leave what exactly? THey can settle, go to school etc. They'll still be regarded as settled travellers rather than just settled people.

    At least they'll have made the effort. As long as they don't bring the horses, etc with them.

    Mickeroo wrote: »
    It is socially aceptable within travelling culture to do those things.
    It is completely UNACCEPTABLE in a modern society to do these things. This is the 21st century.
    Mickeroo wrote: »
    The title of thread says it all really
    So not wanting horses, rubbish, and caravans in your vicinity is "dehumanising" someone? What about the protection of the local community's right to quiet?
    Mickeroo wrote: »
    This is true, but it doesn't make the show any less abhorrent imo. It only exists to make a freak show of a minority.

    So the travellers embraced and loved it, but you're abhorring it on their behalf? Strange indeed.:)


  • #85
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    It is socially aceptable within travelling culture to do those things.
    .

    So something "socially acceptable in a sub-culture", needs to be accepted by the rest of society. YOu are campaigning for FGM then, I take it?


  • #86
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 33,055 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    You walk.

    Its really not that easy to instantly dismiss everything you've seen as normal for your whole life.


  • #87
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    The ones mentioned in this article: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0321/1224313640600.html

    Criminalising trespassing only affects a culture which does a lot of trespassing. In any case, travellers don't need ethnic status because they are specifically mentioned in equality acts on their own merit.


  • #88
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 33,055 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »

    Nothing to do with Irish attitudes to travellers. By they way I live in London where the usage of the word p*ikey is widespread, funny enough even amongst liberals. Even in this thread, and in general life in Ireland, the middle classes don't use the K word.

    The K word is openly used in ireland just as much. The only reason the k word is not used on this thread is because it would be met with a ban/infraction and rightly so.
    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    So something "socially acceptable in a sub-culture", needs to be accepted by the rest of society. YOu are campaigning for FGM then, I take it?

    FGM is also socially acceptable within the cultures its practiced in, that doesn't mean I condone it in our society. You are quite right that you could justify just about anything on these grounds I admit, but that is the way of the world. We live in the bubble of western culture and everything outside of that is inferior to us, this is a perfectly normal mindset for any culture and it was one shared by all the great cultures that rose and collapsed before ours. There's things in our own culture that will be seen as morally abhorrent in a hundred years time, the thing is we have absolutely no way of knowing what those things are.


  • #89
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Its really not that easy to instantly dismiss everything you've seen as normal for your whole life.

    It should be when your state education presents you with what is ACTUALLY normal.


  • #90
    Paparazzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,395 ✭✭✭Paparazzo


    Dubit10 wrote: »
    :pac: Irish people are the best, the same people who would die of shock if you called every Nigerian in the country "scammers" feel it's okay to label all travellers scum or the such. Loltastic

    You're doing the exact same by saying "irish people" and grouping every irish person as a traveller hater.


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  • #91
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 33,055 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    It should be when your state education presents you with what is ACTUALLY normal.

    normality is entirely subjective.


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