Rangers FC lodge papers to go into administration

lubo_moravcik · 04-04-2012 01:14PM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Out of interest can anyone provide figures, even a guesstimate, as to how much money RFC actually owe?

Would especially love to hear from the bears on this.

Thanks.

about 3p in the pound

Jelle1880 · 04-04-2012 01:18PM

lubo_moravcik wrote: »

about 3p in the pound

He said owe, not own :pac:

lubo_moravcik · 04-04-2012 01:27PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

He said owe, not own :pac:

How much would you say that the club owe? Just a guesstimate

Jelle1880 · 04-04-2012 01:38PM

Not a clue.

Obviously the money to Ticketus is around 27m, not sure if the deal with Murray will go through which will see that decrease significantly.

But everything atm will be dwarfed imo by the tax case, should we lose it.

Dempsey · 04-04-2012 01:43PM

The tax case is effectively lost, given what Whyte was told by HMRC. They are currently determining the level of liability.

bobbysands81 · 04-04-2012 02:30PM

Would I be right in saying that if they lose the Tax Case then the worst case scenario would see them owe something north of £100m?

Dempsey · 04-04-2012 02:36PM

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Would I be right in saying that if they lose the Tax Case then the worst case scenario would see them owe something north of £100m?

Worst case scenario from what I've read is between £50m - £75m. Where did you hear £100m+?

bobbysands81 · 04-04-2012 03:17PM

Dempsey wrote: »

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Would I be right in saying that if they lose the Tax Case then the worst case scenario would see them owe something north of £100m?

Worst case scenario from what I've read is between £50m - £75m. Where did you hear £100m+?

That's the worst case scenario for JUST the Tax Case which commentators seem to be saying could be £49m plus penalties which bring it to circa £75m.

I'm wondering how much they might end up owing in total which, if they lose the Tax Case would seem to be well over £100m whilst at the same time they'll be completely hamstrung by a lack of income.

One of the bears said a few pages back that liquidation is merely wishful thinking on our behalf. I think if you look at what they owe and factor in current income and expenditure then it's far more than just wishful thinking, it's a real possibility.

So can anyone tell me how much RFC actually owe?

Dempsey · 04-04-2012 03:53PM

Ah, I misread your post.

Ticketus currently own the season ticket revenue stream for 3 more season which will convert into £10m debt if Murray/Ticketus are successful.

Is the small tax case resolved yet?

Dempsey · 05-04-2012 03:28PM

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-central/302779-rangers-crisis-administrators-reveal-club-owes-63m/

Rangers administrators have revealed the club owes at least £55m and is facing a further tax bill of up to £75m.

The full list of creditors and debts owed by the Ibrox club has been set out in the statement of affairs by Duff and Phelps.

Administrators admit that any sale will be dependent on "the prospective purchaser and the ability to obtain control of RFC Group's majority shareholding."

Rangers FC Group is owned by Craig Whyte and has an 85% stake in the club. Mr Whyte’s company Liberty Corporate has also taken out a floating charge over the group, which may ensure he receives the proceeds of any sale of shares before other creditors.

Duff and Phelps highlighted in the report their duty to investigate whether there have been any transactions to defraud Rangers creditors.

Administrators also said they could still tear up the £25.3m Ticketus deal if they considered in the interest of the creditors as a whole. This could leave them open to "a claim for damages against the club for breach of contract" by Ticketus, however they believe this would "rank as an ordinary unsecured claim in the administration." They said there may be further legal action regarding the deal.

In the report released on Thursday, administrators confirmed they had already held several meetings with HM Revenue and Customs about "the progress" and "likely exit routes from administration."

Up until March 31, Duff and Phelps have accumulated fees larger than the amount of money Rangers have earned during that time. Administrators claim their time costs are £1.1m. From their appointment on February 14 until the end of March, Duff and Phelps say Rangers have taken in just over £1m.

Rangers' administrators estimate that the club's total debts could top £134m.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17628749

The figure is revealed in the administrator's report to creditors published on the club's website.

A total of more than £93m is being claimed by HM Revenue and Customs, relating to the so-called big and small tax cases, and unpaid VAT and PAYE.

The report also reveals Rangers owe cash to other football clubs including Celtic, Hearts, Dundee United, Manchester City and Arsenal.

There lubo, Rangers owe £55m and potentially could owe £134m+ :eek:

Thats a higher gearing ratio than when the Glaziers dumped the debt from their takeover of Man United back on Man United. :eek:

Bolded for Jelle is the extra cost of Rangers being in administration.

Madam · 05-04-2012 03:32PM

Absolutely mindboggling:eek:

Leiva · 05-04-2012 03:57PM

Can somebody please give me the play-school explanation of how a figure of a £75million tax bill could have accumulated .

Surely this is all scare mongering

RoryMac · 05-04-2012 04:00PM

Leiva wrote: »

Can somebody please give me the play-school explanation of how a figure of a £75million tax bill could have accumulated .

Surely this is all scare mongering

From the Administrators report:

The Big Tax Case was brought against the Company by HMRC in respect of outstanding amounts owed from the use of the EBT scheme to make payments to employees of the Company between the tax years 2000/01 and 2009/10.

The total amount determined as due by HMRC in respect of this case is in the region of £75,000,000, including interest and penalties.

The Big Tax Case is disputed by the Company and is subject to first tier tax Tribunal Proceedings instigated by HMRC. An outcome has yet to be determined by the Tribunal.

Leiva · 05-04-2012 04:09PM

RoryMac wrote: »

From the Administrators report:

10+ years its been going on :eek:

If Rangers FC are relatively successful with the tax bill and get it halved at around £37 million , then that plus the debt ( £37 + £55 = £92million ) would surely put them out of business ??

The mind really does boggle .

Dempsey · 05-04-2012 04:11PM

Leiva wrote: »

Can somebody please give me the play-school explanation of how a figure of a £75million tax bill could have accumulated .

Surely this is all scare mongering

Rangers were caught evading tax from 2000-2009 (i.e. Large Tax Case). Evidence, including ex directors suggest it was going on during the 90's too. The amount is being calculated by HMRC is £49m + ~£25m in penalties (worst case scenario).

Rangers were put into administration by the 'small tax case'. They didnt pay PAYE or VAT at all this season and Whyte filed for administration in Feb to pre-empt a move by HMRC to appoint their own administrators.

BBC Sport wrote:

A total of more than £93m is being claimed by HM Revenue and Customs, relating to the so-called big and small tax cases, and unpaid VAT and PAYE.

Eirebear · 05-04-2012 04:13PM

Leiva wrote: »

10+ years its been going on :eek:

If Rangers FC are relatively successful with the tax bill and get it halved at around £37 million , then that plus the debt ( £37 + £55 = £92million ) would surely put them out of business ??

The mind really does boggle .

Honestly, i don't think we#ll end up paying even half of that in terms of the "Big Tax Case".
We're small fry compared to the Premiership behemoths that HMRC are after, and there have been plenty of rumours suggesting that all they really want out of this case is the verdict and that we'll end up with a 15-20m bill.

Add into that any agreed CVA with new owners, and your looking at an actual bill of closer to 50m at most.

That said, it could all go the other way and we end up with a huge tax bill, and creditors not agreeing to a cva - then we're ****ed.

Dempsey · 05-04-2012 04:19PM

Yep, HMRC got a setback with Portmouth & CVA's. Now Rangers are their test case and they want to set a precedent that will allow them to cut through the bureaucracy quicker in future with clubs that owe alot more than Rangers. Tax evasion is rife in football.

RoryMac · 05-04-2012 04:23PM

Dempsey wrote: »

Rangers were put into administration by the 'small tax case'. They didnt pay PAYE or VAT at all this season and Whyte filed for administration in Feb to pre-empt a move by HMRC to appoint their own administrators.

I always thought the small tax case referred to the PAYE & VAT outstanding this season too but according to the Admins

The Small Tax Case was bought against the Company by HMRC in respect of outstanding amounts owed from the use of a discounted options tax scheme for payments made to Tore Andre Flo and Ronald De Boer between the tax years 2000/01 and 2002/03.

The total amount determined as due by HMRC in respect of this case is in the region of £4,000,000, after interest and penalty charges.

Dempsey · 05-04-2012 04:26PM

RoryMac wrote: »

I always thought the small tax case referred to the PAYE & VAT outstanding this season too but according to the Admins

Is it? LOL, So there is 3 open tax cases against the club. I blame the lack of transparency at iBroke for this misunderstanding!

We'll call it the 'open and shut tax case' so! :pac:

RoryMac · 05-04-2012 04:29PM

Dempsey wrote: »

Is it? LOL, So there is 3 open tax cases against the club. I blame the lack of transparency at iBroke for this misunderstanding!

We'll call it the 'open and shut tax case' so! :pac:

Yeah there is £14m on top of the tax cases owed to HMRC which led to the administration. Not sure how much of that is actually over-due

Dempsey · 05-04-2012 04:34PM

RoryMac wrote: »

Yeah there is £14m on top of the tax cases owed to HMRC which led to the administration. Not sure how much of that is actually over-due

They havent paid any of it

RoryMac · 05-04-2012 04:41PM

Dempsey wrote: »

RoryMac wrote: »

Yeah there is £14m on top of the tax cases owed to HMRC which led to the administration. Not sure how much of that is actually over-due

They havent paid any of it

I understand that but it doesn't mean Rangers have missed payment on the full amount, some may not be due until a later date

Dempsey · 05-04-2012 05:02PM

RoryMac wrote: »

I understand that but it doesn't mean Rangers have missed payment on the full amount, some may not be due until a later date

In the UK, there are monthly deadlines for VAT & PAYE. They havent payed the outstanding amount that sent them into administration. Its unclear whether they are meeting the deadlines during their administration but they are struggling to repay amounts of £20-30k owed to clubs. They could be setting aside money toward a lump sum to be paid to HMRC or they could be leaving it all to the prospective new owners to sort out. Duff & Phelps arent getting into that much detail so its guesswork.

RoryMac · 05-04-2012 05:17PM

Dempsey wrote: »

RoryMac wrote: »

I understand that but it doesn't mean Rangers have missed payment on the full amount, some may not be due until a later date

In the UK, there are monthly deadlines for VAT & PAYE. They havent payed the outstanding amount that sent them into administration. Its unclear whether they are meeting the deadlines during their administration but they are struggling to repay amounts of £20-30k owed to clubs. They could be setting aside money toward a lump sum to be paid to HMRC or they could be leaving it all to the prospective new owners to sort out. Duff & Phelps arent getting into that much detail so its guesswork.

Yeah as you said it isn't clear from the report what the situation is with £14m but either way it needs to be paid soon and is probably incurring penalties.

Broxi_Bear_Eire · 05-04-2012 05:45PM

Leiva wrote: »

RoryMac wrote: »

From the Administrators report:

10+ years its been going on :eek:

If Rangers FC are relatively successful with the tax bill and get it halved at around £37 million , then that plus the debt ( £37 + £55 = £92million ) would surely put them out of business ??

The mind really does boggle .

No that's not a certainty would the tax people rather have a bit of the pie or all of it an agreement can be reached where they would accept a smaller amount paid over time
Other than that the club could go into liquidation and come back as a newco and no creditor would get a penny

bobbysands81 · 05-04-2012 08:32PM

277 companies are owed money by Rangers according to the administrators report today.

A possibility of owing more than £134m... That's why I was asking questions yesterday about the amount of money owed as one if the bear's on here said that talk of liquidation is wishful thinking, it's not.

Liquidation is a real possibility... and I think it's more likely today than yesterday. Remember Ibrox and Murray Park was valued at £109m today. If you were being offered 30p in the £ through a CVA then why would you accept it when you could get 75p through liquidation?

lubo_moravcik · 05-04-2012 08:59PM

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/rangers-debt-map/

Rangers debt map. Ordinary decent every day people are losing out here. Even a company on the Shankhill Rd are awaiting payment, tsk tsk

Jelle1880 · 05-04-2012 09:30PM

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

No that's not a certainty would the tax people rather have a bit of the pie or all of it an agreement can be reached where they would accept a smaller amount paid over time
Other than that the club could go into liquidation and come back as a newco and no creditor would get a penny

Exactly.

The numbers mentioned don't change a thing, they're possible outcomes in the best or worst case scenarios.
I don't think it'll have much, if any, impact on the talks with possible buyers.

Dempsey · 05-04-2012 10:15PM

lubo_moravcik wrote: »

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/rangers-debt-map/

Rangers debt map. Ordinary decent every day people are losing out here. Even a company on the Shankhill Rd are awaiting payment, tsk tsk

Did you zoom out? :eek:

lubo_moravcik · 05-04-2012 10:32PM

Dempsey wrote: »

lubo_moravcik wrote: »

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/rangers-debt-map/

Rangers debt map. Ordinary decent every day people are losing out here. Even a company on the Shankhill Rd are awaiting payment, tsk tsk

Did you zoom out? :eek:

Aye, crazy stuff.
Apparently there's an insolvency expert on Newsnight Scotland tonight talking about how deals of 5p to 12p in the £ are not uncommon, however, with regards to HMRC they will not do a deal when there is tax evasion involved

They then wheeled out the insolvency expert who looked at possible CVA scenarios. She envisaged 12p in the pound for creditors which is apparently not too shabby. Under another scenario she suggested it would only be 5p in the pound.

However, she then pointed out that HMRC would be the major creditor and so they would have to be happy. Finally, and this was the best bit of all, she quoted HMRC's policy on voluntary arrangements which make it very clear that where there is evidence of evasion they will not enter into a voluntary arrangement.

Rangers FC lodge papers to go into administration

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