Methanol in Petrol all over the country

Damien360 · 04-04-2012 07:27PM #1

I have a customer working in Customs testing diesel and petrol. They test the diesel to find washed diesel, just for lost revenue purposes. They also test the petrol for revenue purposes. They have found Methanol as a diluent in the petrol but I do not know to what percentage, all over the country in practically every garage with the exception of large maxol's and esso's.

A quick google tells me it is used in race engines as an additive. But I cannot find any good data on any long term issues on a petrol engine of this practice.

Can anyone shed any light on possible damage. Rubber hose damage springs to mind but over what period of time would this be an issue given that ethanol is used as an additive anyway.

Customs and Revenues only concern is lost revenue and these will be court cases/fines in the near future. They do not consider any damage to cars as relevant.

colm_mcm · 04-04-2012 07:32PM

Ethanol is wildly used, is methanol really any worse?

CiniO · 04-04-2012 07:34PM

colm_mcm wrote: »

Ethanol is wildly used, is methanol really any worse?

From what I heard is you get blind after methanol, while after ethanol you don't

Pottler · 04-04-2012 07:40PM

I believe it is actually ethanol that is being used as a stretcher, up to 40-50% in some/ quite a few cases, fuelled, ahem, by the fact that ethanol costs c.a €0.40 a liter and can be sold for €1.60+ a litre when added as a bulking agent to the petrol. It does not do modern petrol engines any good at those high levels of addition and is apparently a growing problem on a par with diesel laundering when it comes to tax evasion. Got that from a customs lad I know as well. The problem was apparently almost unheard of a couple of years ago. Now its the opposite and unadulterated is apparently harder to find than adulterated. Same issue a problem in UK as well.
A haulier from Monaghan was telling me yesterday that a lot of lads are having to run washed diesel just to be able to keep going at the prices diesel is now. As he put it himself, I know it's fecking up the engine but the real stuff is 60 cent dearer and if we use that we'll be bust in a month anyway. High fuel prices are causing a lot of hardship but also a lot of opportunities for the unscrupulous. As an example one guy I deal with a lot was paying for his diesel by card ahead of me in a ss queue and his bill was €524 for 330 litres. I commented on that along the lines of "jasus" and he said "sure thats every day Pottler", (that was for just 1 lorry!)

Atlantic Dawn · 04-04-2012 07:49PM

I can't see the likes of Tesco having dodgy fuel.

Marcusm · 04-04-2012 07:50PM

colm_mcm wrote: »

Ethanol is wildly used, is methanol really any worse?

No idea about cars but I wouldn't substitute methanol for ethanol down the pub.....

Voodoomelon · 04-04-2012 07:57PM

Funny you should post this now because I heard something similar last week.
I always thought it was only diesel that could be diluted, apparently its rampant with petrol too, regardless of the name on the station.

You can dilute petrol to about 70% max, go any lower and it will turn to a white goop. I was shocked to hear that *apparently*, virtually every station in my local 30,000+ people town is buying same.

Anyone reading this has no reason to believe me, but I believe the source.

Pottler · 04-04-2012 08:04PM

Seemingly the issues are much the same as with adding bio-diesel to regular diesel, < 10% is ok but does present issues mainly to do with algal growth and sludging. 10% ethanol is an acceptable dilution but the 40, 50 60 and even 70% addition does not do your car any good at all. Any clever types on here know of a simple "field test" for ethanol content? That would be useful imo. (could become a business for someone if a kit could be put together for retail as this becomes more publicly known)

Voodoomelon · 04-04-2012 08:06PM

Pottler wrote: »

Seemingly the issues are much the same as with adding bio-diesel to regular diesel, < 10% is ok but does present issues mainly to do with algal growth and sludging. 10% ethanol is an acceptable dilution but the 40, 50 60 and even 70% addition does not do your car any good at all. Any clever types on here know of a simple "field test" for ethanol content? That would be useful imo. (could become a business for someone if a kit could be put together for retail as this becomes more publicly known)

Sorry, I meant down to 70% of what it was, so 30% methanol addition maximum (or whatever bulking agent).

coylemj · 04-04-2012 08:09PM

There is 5% ethanol in all Maxol unleaded....

http://www.maxol.ie/general-content/maxol-bioethanol-e5

matt-dublin · 04-04-2012 08:10PM

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I can't see the likes of Tesco having dodgy fuel.

Tesco = Topaz

04-04-2012 08:24PM

Pottler wrote: »

Seemingly the issues are much the same as with adding bio-diesel to regular diesel, < 10% is ok but does present issues mainly to do with algal growth and sludging. 10% ethanol is an acceptable dilution but the 40, 50 60 and even 70% addition does not do your car any good at all. Any clever types on here know of a simple "field test" for ethanol content? That would be useful imo. (could become a business for someone if a kit could be put together for retail as this becomes more publicly known)

SAAB with biopower soft and opensid displays ethanol content and it has been hovering around 9 percent since about last spring. Before that it was always 0.

E85 was displaying around 80 percent so seems pretty accurate. Tesco, Esso, Maxol and Applegreen seem to all be the same now.

matt-dublin · 04-04-2012 08:34PM

I presume because of this yOu get a less efficient burn and reduced mpg

dr.fuzzenstein · 04-04-2012 09:09PM

And the only ones punished probably are the unsuspecting saps who get dipped I presume?

Pottler · 04-04-2012 09:18PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

And the only ones punished probably are the unsuspecting saps who get dipped I presume?

I don't think it's policy to prosecute motorists for this at the mo, issue is more with ss evading duty etc.

Matt Simis · 04-04-2012 09:34PM

matt-dublin wrote: »

I presume because of this yOu get a less efficient burn and reduced mpg

Actually you will get a smoother running engine (well over 100octane fuel at this point) and more efficient burn. I used to run E85 in a variety of cars whenever I could. You will get much lower MPG though, in the region of 20-40% hit depending engine type.. so the claims of 50% mixing cannot be correct as even the most dense consumer would notice such a dramatic drop off in economy. Cold starting would be noticably worse too.

The question of mixing Methanol vs Ethanol is new though, Im not aware of Methanol being used, I wonder which is cheaper as a bulk chemical? Perhaps methanol as its not taxed as a fuel at all.

I made this chart a few years ago comparing major fuel types and their corrosiveness:

Methanol is marginally worse than Ethanol as a fuel additive. Outside of motor applications, Gasoline is far worse than either. Adding Acetone (nail polish remover) or Toulene (paint thinners) is a well known MPG enhancing tip but clearly a bad additive from a safety perspective.

Mycroft H · 04-04-2012 10:07PM

why on earth are they putting stuff in petrol to make it less fuel efficient therefore burning more of stuff

Pottler · 04-04-2012 10:38PM

BX 19 wrote: »

why on earth are they putting stuff in petrol to make it less fuel efficient therefore burning more of stuff

Because their business is to sell fuel at maximum profit. Not economy or the life of your engine.

Matt Simis · 04-04-2012 11:00PM

Pottler wrote: »

Because their business is to sell fuel at maximum profit. Not economy or the life of your engine.

Yeah, its actually the perfect scam, they pay less for the product, sell for a premium and its consumed at a faster rate than the norm meaning faster return to sell more. Its a double win.

Marcusm · 04-04-2012 11:01PM

Toluene not Toulene

Matt Simis · 04-04-2012 11:02PM

Marcusm wrote: »

Toluene not Toulene

Im totally not editing that picture to correct that!

fasttalkerchat · 04-04-2012 11:04PM

matt-dublin wrote: »

I presume because of this yOu get a less efficient burn and reduced mpg

Makes no difference to prefoemance on most engines.

Pottler · 04-04-2012 11:10PM

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Makes no difference to prefoemance on most engines.

issues apparently are with injectors, valves and ports - higher burn temp?? Not too sure but the win is 100000l petrol mixed with 25000l ethanol means an extra(uses fingers) 30K profit on top of the usual 6c/litre. 30 grand is not to be sniffed at and a lot won't sniff at it. Also, Petrol is considered "safe" from the fuel messers, but now it's not....

fasttalkerchat · 04-04-2012 11:42PM

Pottler wrote: »

issues apparently are with injectors, valves and ports - higher burn temp?? Not too sure but the win is 100000l petrol mixed with 25000l ethanol means an extra(uses fingers) 30K profit on top of the usual 6c/litre. 30 grand is not to be sniffed at and a lot won't sniff at it. Also, Petrol is considered "safe" from the fuel messers, but now it's not....

Petrol was never pure. Someone who owns a garage was saying one time that he got a warning about some Kerosene in one of his petrol pumps... he was ****ting it and had no idea how it got there. Turns out he was a tiny amount over the legal limit and nothing more was said.
Customs told them that almost every garage was adding kerosene intentionally up to the legal limit.
Also one large supermarket in the North add biodiesel to their diesel.

The purest fuel you will get now is red/green diesel!

celticcrash · 05-04-2012 12:13AM

Now I know why I am getting only 30mpg instead of my usual 40mpg.
I changed garages last week. I drove easier for the last few days and
still could not get over the 31mpg. At least now I know and so will a lot of others. They wont put this in the papers. Thanks for the thread;)

robbie_998 · 05-04-2012 01:06AM

So we just don't use garages anymore ?

I was planning on putting a good bit in going to work tomorrow at maxol on the way to drumcondra

Creamsoda · 05-04-2012 06:03AM

This makes perfect sense now. I usually filled up in Tesco and was getting about 500-550km to a tank. Last two times I filled up on a non-Tesco petrol station in Waterford that claim ill get 24km extra per 100km or something and was getting much worse mpg. Filled up last week and almost down to half a tank already which is unusual. Think I'll stick with Tesco from now on.

Bandara · 05-04-2012 06:56AM

Absolute nonsense to suggest that anything other than the minority are selling striped unleaded (which is what it's called).

It's the exact same situation as washed derv, just stay away from
The independant garages, the two pump operations and he pop up
Garages, stay away from places over 3-4 cent cheaper than the norm and you'll be ok.

I find it incredible that people blindly put fuel into their cars when it's obviously too good to be true prices wise, when a garage in the city centre sells fuel for 8 cents of more than everywhere else, and only gets its deliveries at 3am you'd have to be in denial not to ask yourself how/why can they do this. Yet it's full of taximen and the like constantly.

Striped Unl has been on the go for just short of a year, luckily all the washed derv/unl fuel situation has been rectified and a definitive stop will be put to it January 2013. It will be very interesting to see who closes down then, I can list about 30 places straight off the bat!

Anan1 · 05-04-2012 07:08AM

Why do they call it striped unleaded?

robbie_998 · 05-04-2012 08:39AM

Does anyone have an idea of garages safe to use then ?

cadaliac · 05-04-2012 08:56AM

Hammertime wrote: »

Absolute nonsense to suggest that anything other than the minority are selling striped unleaded (which is what it's called).

......

I find it incredible that people blindly put fuel into their cars when it's obviously too good to be true prices wise, when a garage in the city centre sells fuel for 8 cents of more than everywhere else, and only gets its deliveries at 3am you'd have to be in denial not to ask yourself how/why can they do this. Yet it's full of taximen and the like constantly.

........

Sorry but I don't get this.
A city center garage sells for 8c more and is full of taxi men? .....all the time? Are you saying that the fuel will last longer, hence the taxi men use the more expensive fuel?
Anyway, I never take a blind bit of notice what time garages take their deliveries, as I don't generally see and I also never take any notice who uses the garage. And, I leve next door to an AppleGreen.

Methanol in Petrol all over the country

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