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Schools want to drop LC physics, chemistry, economics

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Comments

  • #32
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Mr. Rager wrote: »
    Sorry but you're wrong, unless your talking about primary schools/bogger community schools.
    Does Dublin get it's own curriculum now? We all use the same books lad.

    Please someone post a link to the new religion book because as far as I remember it was all happy Jesus pictures, my entire religion class consisted of making funny cartoons out of the pictures in the religion book. It was actually my favourite class.


  • #33
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Getronicle wrote: »
    Removing science subjects is ridiculous. How about encouraging students who are going to choose construction studies as a subject to pick physics or chemistry instead? Would seem more reasonable now that there's not much construction happening in the country.
    I'd second that... but a lot of the people who studied construction studies (At least in my school) were the ones who "hated siense nd all dat crap"...


  • #34
    titan18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,080 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    I went to a Catholic school, and religion was taught as an insight into multiple religions and morality, not just Catholicism.


  • #35
    Doctor_Socks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 337 ✭✭Doctor_Socks


    Dropping subjects because they're too expensive, that is easily one of the stupidest things i've heard in a long time in this country!! The government wants students to study science and engineering subjects in college yet they want to remove the fundamental subjects students need for these?? Our economy is going to do fantastic when we have a load of LC graduates that don't know anything about science or economics!

    I work in engineering and i've heard numerous times that students in secondary schools need better education in science and maths to help get them through 3rd level education!

    I don't agree with some posts about abandoning subjects. I hated Irish with an absolute passion in secondary school, but after travelling a lot of the world I realised that the subject thought me a lot about Irish heritage aswell which I really enjoy telling to people when they ask me about where i'm from.

    Amalgamation of some subjects could work, but that's going to take even more money to structure the new subject properly for examination in the long run!


  • #36
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    About time, these are only nonsense subjects anyway of no importance.physics:rolleyes:Chemistry:rolleyes:Economics..not important at all, no jobs in those ..now religion on the other hand


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  • #37
    token56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭token56


    benway wrote: »
    FYP

    Physics and chemistry we need, economics is only a bunch of pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo anyhow, no better than religion.

    *EDIT

    I did music for my leaving, was a while ago at this stage.

    Would you care to back this assertion up with some evidence?

    Many of the areas within economics have strong underlying mathematical foundations and principles. Many of these are applicable not only in economics but in other disciplines such as engineering. It's far from pseudo-science, to call it that is an insult really.


  • #38
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Mountainlad wrote: »
    Yeah but you coul move school if you wanted to do a particular subject. If they remove them altogether, then what can you do?

    In some areas yeah, not in others. Even in big-ish towns there'll only be a choice of a couple of schools for each gender.


  • #39
    Sergeant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,362 ✭✭✭Sergeant


    dlofnep wrote: »

    Neither however should be made a scapegoat for the lack of funding. That's the real issue here.

    Lack of funding? We had an 83% increase in government spending over the past 15 years across all three levels of education. The issue isn't the amount of taxpayers money that we throw at it, it's the very system itself. 8 billion as opposed to 8.6 billion is still very bad value for money. We've an increasing number of teenage males who are functionally illiterate, and a LC system that emphasises rote learning over critical thought and analysis.


  • #40
    micropig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,366 ✭✭✭micropig


    token56 wrote: »
    Would you care to back this assertion up with some evidence?

    Many of the areas within economics have strong underlying mathematical foundations and principles. Many of these are applicable not only in economics but in other disciplines such as engineering. It's far from pseudo-science, to call it that is an insult really.

    engineering:rolleyes:


    We need lots of arts students, that'll get the country back on it's feet:p


  • #41
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    The best and most famous economists in the land showed themselves up as fools

    Where's our soft landing Jim Power?

    If we're going to keep the subject I hope the young students do better when it's their turn to comment and lead in twenty years time


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  • #42
    Mountainlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    amacachi wrote: »
    In some areas yeah, not in others. Even in big-ish towns there'll only be a choice of a couple of schools for each gender.

    True, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to cut them even further. Like, if effect it's saying ''sure plenty of students don't have the option of doing these subjects, so lets deprive even more.''


  • #43
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    ...

    You can complete the entire exam without so much as mentioning Christianity if you so desired.

    I know having a popular rant and getting thanked for it is great... but sometimes knowing what you're talking about can save a lot of embarrassment.

    You could have made your point just as easily without throwing the dig in at the end. It was an utterly pointless jab that makes you look like a smart arsed tool.

    The simple fact is that 90% of our schools are run by the Church and the Leaving Certificate syllabus has **** all to do with the fact that because the Church has this control over education, the majority of children in the country continue & will continue to be educated under a Catholic doctrine that includes bringing those children through the religious ceremonies of Communion & Confirmation.

    If that is not teaching Catholicism, then what the hell is?


  • #44
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I believe they should stop trying to teach subjects altogether and instead encourage children to learn, discover and investigate.


  • #45
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    You can complete the entire exam without so much as mentioning Christianity if you so desired.

    And the last LC religion paper I did the calculations on you could easily get a C2 at honours level without straying from Catholicism, but that's beside the point, as I'm sure you're well aware feck all students study religion towards an exam, instead many go through the schools own "religion" class, a ridiculous exercise which has no place in our education system.

    I have a fun fix for the problem we're having funding nearly empty classrooms, make science compulsory at JC level and design it to better spark interest in the sciences. I went to a school where it was and the vast, vast majority of people went on to take at least one science for the leaving, anyone I meet who gives out about the difficulty of science subjects generally never studied one.


  • #46
    Mountainlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    mikemac1 wrote: »
    The best and most famous economists in the land showed themselves up as fools

    Where's our soft landing Jim Power?

    If we're going to keep the subject I hope the young students do better when it's their turn to comment and lead in twenty years time

    Not everyone that does Economics is going to be an Economist. It has practical uses in day to day life, and gives an understanding of how our financial systems work on a basic level and a broader level. If there are less people educated in this field, how are people going to people able to challenge decisions made by the government if they haven't a clue what's actually going on?


  • #47
    A Primal Nut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭A Primal Nut


    karma_ wrote: »
    Save your faux rage, if you had your way all education would be privatised.

    Surely the fact that public schools are being forced to drop the most important subject is one more reason to support privatisation. The government have always being terrible at providing services and it isn't going to get any better anytime soon.


  • #48
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Sergeant wrote: »
    Lack of funding? We had an 83% increase in government spending over the past 15 years across all three levels of education. The issue isn't the amount of taxpayers money that we throw at it, it's the very system itself. 8 billion as opposed to 8.6 billion is still very bad value for money. We've an increasing number of teenage males who are functionally illiterate, and a LC system that emphasises rote learning over critical thought and analysis.
    I learned next to nothing in school, I was half illiterate (somewhat dyslexic, or stupid as it was known back then) leaving school, since leaving school my grammar is in a completely different league and I actually love learning new things. I'm even a little bit obsessed with learning new things and wish I had my youth back to take advantage of that young supple brain.

    The school system is a complete and utter joke, it ruins learning.


  • #49
    benway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    token56 wrote: »
    Would you care to back this assertion up with some evidence?

    Many of the areas within economics have strong underlying mathematical foundations and principles. Many of these are applicable not only in economics but in other disciplines such as engineering. It's far from pseudo-science, to call it that is an insult really.

    Look, I caught one!

    Not 100% serious in that ... although, the a priori mathematical reasoning is often based on unsustainable assumptions about human nature, particularly neoclassical economics, and especially the homo economicus myth. Also, I think that voguish economic theories are more derived from political reality than scientific truth. Agree 100% with this:

    http://www.iasc-culture.org/publications_article_2010_Summer_mirowski.php

    In truth, I don't think that any subjects should be dropped, but this is a reasonably foreseeable consequence of the government's approach to deficit-reduction by cutting, rather than making a serious attempt to increase revenues.
    A Primal Nut wrote: »
    Surely the fact that public schools are being forced to drop the most important subject is one more reason to support privatisation. The government have always being terrible at providing services and it isn't going to get any better anytime soon.

    So it begins. Was only saying to my mate the other day that it wouldn't be long before the looney right / libertarian fringe started using public sector difficulties owing to funding and staffing problems as further "proof" of Public Sector Inefficiency™.

    Some pretty messed up logic, right there - we pull funding from schools, and then blame underfunded schools for not providing the same levels of service they did a couple of years back.


  • #50
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Mountainlad wrote: »
    True, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to cut them even further. Like, if effect it's saying ''sure plenty of students don't have the option of doing these subjects, so lets deprive even more.''
    Eh? They're important subjects but kids don't want to do them. They should be near enough top priority.
    pickarooney wrote: »
    I believe they should stop trying to teach subjects altogether and instead encourage children to learn, discover and investigate.
    That should be focussed on the 8 years wasted at Primary School IMO. There's very little in any Leaving Cert subject that's hard to understand or that people who've spent 11 years in education already shouldn't be able to figure out.


  • #51
    Frida Odd Vaccine
    Posts: 81,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Frida Odd Vaccine


    So glad I didn't have religion in school


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  • #52
    token56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭token56


    micropig wrote: »
    engineering:rolleyes:


    We need lots of arts students, that'll get the country back on it's feet:p

    I'm not what point you are trying to make here. Mathematical principles developed within the field on economics have been shown to be useful in other areas, for example, facility location problems have been widely used and developed within economics. Solutions to these problems have shown to be useful in finding solutions to problems in engineering in particular the area of network planning in wireless communication systems. I can provide you with some papers and books to read if you are really that interested.


  • #53
    AngryBollix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭AngryBollix


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    Religion maybe, Irish is a cultural thing.

    No it isnt


  • #54
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,424 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Mountainlad wrote: »
    Yeah but you coul move school if you wanted to do a particular subject. If they remove them altogether, then what can you do?

    And is science not compulsory for the junior cert?

    Then you end up getting too many people applying for a select range of courses amongst a limited number of schools which will require some form of rating system / interview stage to select successful candidates. Which cuts on the availability of any courses that get dropped from schools.


  • #55
    Mountainlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    amacachi wrote: »
    Eh? They're important subjects but kids don't want to do them. They should be near enough top priority.

    The growth in the amount of students doing third-level science courses would suggest otherwise


  • #56
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Why are we paying to educate other peoples kids in the first place, why is this island a nation state instead of just an economy etc etc


  • #57
    Daftendirekt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Daftendirekt


    Duggys Housemate wrote: »
    The OP is an anarcho-capitalist.

    What does that have to do with anything ? :confused:

    His point is perfectly valid.


  • #58
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    ScumLord wrote: »
    .
    I agree religion is of historical importance and should be studied, but in an unbiased and impartial way which doesn't happen in Irish schools.

    It did in my school, dropping that would have been a disaster as it was one of the only classes I had where students were encouraged to think for themselves and contribute rather than 'open your book to page x, this is what we're doing now'..


  • #59
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 27,498 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Literacy fail.
    The school do not 'want' to drop subjects, the cuts are forcing them to.

    As to which subjects, it will boil down to demand.


  • #60
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    benway wrote: »
    Look, I caught one!

    Not 100% serious in that ... although, the a priori mathematical reasoning is often based on unsustainable assumptions about human nature, particularly neoclassical economics, and especially the homo economicus myth. Also, I think that voguish economic theories are more derived from political reality than scientific truth. Agree 100% with this:

    http://www.iasc-culture.org/publications_article_2010_Summer_mirowski.php

    In truth, I don't think that any subjects should be dropped, but this is a reasonably foreseeable consequence of the government's approach to deficit-reduction by cutting, rather than making a serious attempt to increase revenues.

    Economics takes a lot of mathematical ability to explain very little, it is the most mathematical of the social science but is still social science ( i.e. not really a science).


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  • #61
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Sergeant wrote: »
    Lack of funding? We had an 83% increase in government spending over the past 15 years across all three levels of education. The issue isn't the amount of taxpayers money that we throw at it, it's the very system itself. 8 billion as opposed to 8.6 billion is still very bad value for money. We've an increasing number of teenage males who are functionally illiterate, and a LC system that emphasises rote learning over critical thought and analysis.

    While I agree on the latter, classroom sizes are increasing - making it very difficult for teachers to maintain the attention of the class, or give extra time to students who need it. The budget cut more than €130 million from education, that is of course going to hurt schools. Not to mention, the Irish population is growing and the demand for schools is increasing.

    So yes - there is a lack of funding. There are many pupils who are still stuck in cold, damp prefab schools. And many more waiting on new schools to be built.

    Funding is absolutely an issue in the Irish education system. To say that it isn't is grossly dishonest.


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