Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

philologos wrote: »

Disillusioned with religion? - Anyone can be disillusioned with religious institutions.

I was referring to the core of religon, i.e. the Bible in the case of Christianity.

philologos wrote: »

As a Christian. I acknowledge that that means that I am a follower of Jesus, that I accept by His death and resurrection that He stood in my rightful place and took away my sin. As a result, I live in acknowledgement of God and I seek to serve Him fully. The church from a Biblical point of view is simply a grassroots movement of those who follow Him.

Ultimately, belief Biblically is just a wholehearted acknowledgement of Jesus, and walking in it. It isn't a "feeling" or anything else that you've described. It's simply a well founded trust in who God is and what He did through Jesus.

Belief doesn't have much to do with feeling from a Christian perspective. Irrespective of what people think or not about Christianity, ultimately something is true about God whether we like it or not. I believe in Jesus, because there is simply put good reason for me to put my trust in Him.

Muslims aren't convinced by Christianity in a similar way that you aren't convinced by Christianity. It's either because one hasn't sought out God in fullness, or it is because one has never heard of God. It could be also because people want to run from Him, because they are not willing to acknowledge that in His sight their works are evil. Jesus ultimately demands a transformation, that is costly. It can lose us friends and family, it can lose people their jobs, and ultimately people are in some regions of the world killed for believing in Jesus.

Or that a Muslim considers the Koran as the word of God for the exact reasons you consider the bible to be the one true religon.

Ive read your reply but I still dont feel satisfied that my question has been answered, why is belief so important. I ask again, name a moral or ethical act done by a believer that could not be done by a non believer?

philologos wrote: »

Limbo has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity. The concept isn't listed in the Bible once. I'm a non-Catholic Christian, I simply defend God's word on boards.ie.

Thats a fair point, however the bible (Mark 16) says:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved", implying that if you are not baptized you wont be saved. Elsewhere it implies you dont need baptism to be saved but this creates confusion as sentences conflict with others elsewhere.

philologos wrote: »

The rejection of God is profoundly wrong. It separates us from our Creator, and ultimately leads us into the delusion that we can better guide ourselves rather than accepting the rightful standard of God. At best it is a mistake, at worst it is a lie that denies the fundamental truth about reality.

Your comment ("rejection of God") suggests that these people who dont believe in God are completely immoral with no ethics, charity or compassion which may not be the case. These can be people who help the poor, are good parents, ethical, law abiding citizens. They dont steal, or kill etc etc. I would also argue that a person who does a moral or charitable act without a hope of eternal reward (a non believer) is perhaps a more noble person than someone who does a charitable act mainly because they believe they will be rewarded in the next life. Surely some credit would be due here?

marienbad wrote: »

Only some have been offered the gift of salvation Fanny .

How so?

marien, its not as black n white as you paint it. We don't know about anyone else we only know that Jesus came to redeem the world and if we accept Him we too can be redeemed.
"I am the way the truth and the light" Did He mean that His mission was to set up a Christian church that could give out passes into heaven or did He mean that His death and resurrection made the gates of heaven open to everyone? I go with the latter, it makes more sense for God to do that than to set up a franchise. The RCC claim to have the keys in a vault somewhere and only they can open the gate for you if you know the secret handshake but so do all the rest.

marienbad
As for the Hitler conundrum ? What is wrong with asking it ? Either I am wrong or not according to Christianity. If I am wrong show me and if i am not , then accept the consequence of your belief . If you don't know - say so - it is not a crime.

It's a fair question and deserves an answer.
You know I'll have a go According to Christian theology Adolf has as much chance of getting into heaven as anyone else. He was baptized and lived a good life, oh wait no he didn't. Well he has the option of repentance and for all we know may have in his last hours repented and sought forgiveness, I hope he did. And even if the rotten basterd didn't we should at least ask God to show mercy feel a little saddened for his destruction in the fiery lake.
Now the Jews. not baptized but chosen people who presumably led good lives and suffered through no fault of their own, no idea, best ask God for mercy and pray for their souls.
Hows that?

I think that the game is almost up for christianity and most other religions around the world. The primary source of knowledge for christianty is a 2000+ year old book which is (having read some last night) written in a very ambiguous and open manner leaving huge swathes of interpretation to the user.

The bible tethers christians to the past like an anchor that over time does more harm than good as its relevance eventually diminishes. Bizzarely enough even though most devotees of christianty claim that free will prevents god from proving he exists as its faith based they then hold up the bible as irrefutable truth of his existence.

What is the bible? Probaby the best computer program you can get a person to learn and recite without question. Any attempt to engage in logical discussion results often in long passages being quoted in return.

I think thats sad because the bible however marvellous the believer thinks it is is just one small book in a universe where knowledge stretches out as far as the cosmos. Again, to anchor yourself to what is essentially a small collection of words seems at best bizzare.

I cannot believe in any god that wants us all to just learn and recite 2000 year old words that have no relevance to our own lives or our place in time. (genetics, space travel, cutting edge science.) how silly would that be! It's far more liley that IF such a god existed he would almost want to deliberately create such a story to see who could evolve and move forward from it and who couldn't see past it and stay routed in one place.

I've often tried to stimulate the minds of christians by suggesting that the bible and everything they know about religion is nothing but a springboard and a starting place for a bigger journey. A few have looked with at me with derision but a few have considered the thought with open possibility that gives me renewed hope in humanity.

tommy2bad wrote: »

Not correct, no one is consigned to hell.
Start from the point of view of God, He wants man to live with him, man FUBARS, God fixes. What happens now?
The idea that God done a botch job of fixing it or that man broke it so it couldn't be fixed and a kind of back door was patched on is nonsense.
We as Christians have a true method of getting to heaven, whatever that is, everyone else must be able to gain the same but we don't know the how that works so we can only say ' this' not 'that' Any one who claims that they have the only way are either Jesus back for the apocalypse or wrong.
Christians say they have the way that Jesus taught them and know it to be true.

But is the Christian way the only way ?

tommy2bad wrote: »

Might be, might not. All we know is that it a sure way.
Look I'm a believer, a bit heterodox but who isn't nowadays, all I know is the basic message Jesus gave was (I'm paraphrasing) Cop on and get on with each other. He came with a mission, didn't do much preaching and changer the world.
We trust in God to save us and we have to trust that He wont turn away anyone who lives in His way just because their form wasn't stamped at all the correct places.
Anyway I don't even believe in the God as presented by some of the bible authors, the God who runs the whole way through the bible like the writing in a stick of rock on the other hand.....

I don't think most Christans would agree with you- as far as I know they believe the Christian way is the only way and I venture to say if you don't accept that you are not really a Christian.

Again, as always , I am open to correction, what say you Fanny Craddock Philologos ?

tommy2bad wrote: »

Not correct, no one is consigned to hell.

Except for those who commit the sin mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32:

Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come

It is also commonly bandied about, at least by US Christians, that to personally deny Jesus in such a way that one would never repent that denial has earned unpardonable condemnation. Anyone who rejects the Christian doctrine and does so, even in part, due to the reprehensible morality expounded by Jesus would surely be in such a situation and is, therefore, consigned to hell.

And can I point out, related to this, that the doctrine of Vicarious Redemption through Ol' J.C. is one of the most broken moral lessons ever to see the light of day. One need only read a little of Christopher Hitchens to understand how truly reprehensible this doctrine is.

dj357 wrote: »

1 Except for those who commit the sin mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32:



2 It is also commonly bandied about, at least by US Christians, that to personally deny Jesus in such a way that one would never repent that denial has earned unpardonable condemnation. Anyone who rejects the Christian doctrine and does so, even in part, due to the reprehensible morality expounded by Jesus would surely be in such a situation and is, therefore, consigned to hell.

3 And can I point out, related to this, that the doctrine of Vicarious Redemption through Ol' J.C. is one of the most broken moral lessons ever to see the light of day. One need only read a little of Christopher Hitchens to understand how truly reprehensible this doctrine is.

1 OK well people have the right to choose hell too, can't stop the wicked from going to Babylon.
2 Hyperbole is never helpful.
3 And vicarious redemption is not the only model that applies, more ways to choke a dog than shoving a pound of butter down his neck, as my mother was fond of saying.

marienbad wrote: »

Those that have never encountered Christianity have not been offered that opportunity.

Abraham and Moses never encountered Christianity, right? So what does Christianity say about them?

marienbad wrote: »

And as to why I post here ? are you seriously asking that question ? Why have a christian/atheist thread if atheists are not welcome ?

I'm sorry but you seem misunderstood me. I didn't say, nor did I suggest, that you should not post here. I also did not say, nor did I suggest, that atheists, by the simple fact that they reject the existence of God (lack belief in the existence of God or whatever), are unwelcome to post on a forum I visit occasionally.

As for the Hitler conundrum ? What is wrong with asking it ? Either I am wrong or not according to Christianity. If I am wrong show me and if i am not , then accept the consequence of your belief . If you don't know - say so - it is not a crime.

What are you suggesting the consequences of my belief are? That potentially Hitler could go to heaven and others that we think of as better individuals wont? If that is what you are saying then, yes, I accept that this is a possibility. I also think it unlikely that he was in any way repentant. But that is really besides my point. Is it not?

Again, the notion that God is interested in talking out the cosmic weighing scales to see if you are more good than bad is not something supported by classical theology. What Christianity teaches is that each and every one of us has already failed the standard and that is why we need salvation. Mary Poplin shares the content of a dream she had (and she says that this was more than a dream) that is very pertinent to what I've said above. (About 12 minutes in.) You don't have to believe a word of to understand what she is getting at.

Let me be clear. What I have never claimed is that I have special knowledge about either the deepest thoughts of individuals or the result of God's judgement - who is saved and who is lost. I'm not a mind reader (of either man or God) and I can't know the result of a judgement that hasn't yet happened. In fact, I readily admitted that I don't have access to such knowledge. So I am therefore unsure what your point is.

Wh1stler wrote: »

So when Jesus said, 'no-one comes to my father but through me' He meant, 'no-one comes to my father but through me, except everyone who does'?

He went even further, even calling Jesus 'Lord!' (having faith) is not enough. 'The gate is narrow' and all that.

Also, according to Jesus' words, if you deny Him, He will deny you.

Where did the ambiguity of Jesus' words come from?

And when Jesus instructed that the gospel be taken to all nations, which nations were tacitly exempted?

According to the words of Jesus, if you don't recognise Him as God, or the son of God, then you go to hell.

If thats how you want to read it, then you better get saved fast or your going to hell.:p
Whats your point? That Jesus was ambiguous in His explanation of salvation theology? That its too damn hard to get to heaven? That none of it makes sense in a nice simple easy to understand way?
How about this;Galatians 5:14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
This stuff isn't hard to grasp, just to put into practice.
Tacitly excluded??? I give up. Whats the answer?