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An Irish Libertarian Party

13567…12

Comments

  • #62
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #63
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Endless Nameless wrote: »
    The Flying Circus is my favourite tv show but I fail to see how they would make a sketch making fun of people who don't want excessive red tape and Government meddling in their healthcare and want to be able to acquire it more easily and at more affordable prices.

    Where does the notion that handing healthcare over to privates mean that its easier to get and more affordable come from? This is not my experience of healthcare.

    Removing regulation from markets just means that the stronger corporations will swallow the weak, right up to the point where we have replaced state services which allow access to everyone and which are at least answerable to the people in theory, for total corporate monopolies. Who on earth would want this? Other than the vested interests in those corporations of course - rich, priveledged, white people who trade on the stock market. (Any of those in this thread?, oh look)

    An amoral corporate monopoly in something like healthcare is like something out of a dystopian nightmare. People will pay any money for health, it would be a licence to bleed people dry.

    Libertarians are not interested in systems which benefit the actual people, they are interested in themselves only. Nobody buys the smokescreen they put up pretending that their policies are to benefit anyone else.


  • #64
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #65
    Dirk Gently
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,779 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    no, im arguing the state should regulate them instead of creating them, notice the subtle difference? Where's the historical evidence for libertarianism? Neither of us like the status quo, one of us is a realist though, and one of us is looking for an easy answer. No doubt you're the realist :)


  • #66
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #67
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Nobody is saying the current systems are perfect.
    Private corporations at least answer to the consumer. If they don't provide quality services, they don't profit, and they cease to exist.
    Rubbish, they answer to their shareholders, which is totally different. This notion that modern corporations will simply go out of business when their business models fail is fantasy, these are political organisations designed to harvest power for their owners not to provide sunshine and lolipops to the masses.


  • #68
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #69
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭Soldie


    Dirk Gently wrote: »
    Was it the state that turned 40 american banks into just 4 in under 20 years. Perhaps a little regulation to ensure there's no such thing as too big to fail? No?

    By the way, criticising the Irish state doesn't there for prove libertarianism is a utopia. It's just a really obvious observation of a small corrupt crony system. We have a small population and a small elite who literally know, went to school and socialise with each other, be they politicians, corporate or media.

    There's a dog lying at my feet at the moment, the dog is black, there for because I observed the dog is black Libertarianism is the answer?

    You might be interested in reading Milton Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom. Specifically chapter 8 entitled Monopoly and Social Responsibility. Indeed, you're engaging in the very same logical fallacy that you accuse others of engaging in when you attribute bank mergers to unregulated capitalism. It's been a while since I've read the book and I don't have a copy at hand, but in that particular chapter Friedman points out that, amongst other things, one of the major contributory factors towards such monopolies is a tax structure which encourages the retention of corporate earnings. Ultimately this means that established corporations have an advantage over new enterprises in that they can be less productive while also providing their stockholders with an incentive not to sell their shares and re-invest them elsewhere.


  • #70
    Dirk Gently
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,779 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    competitive pressure from whom? It's a monopoly, it has the money, it has the market, it has research facilities, it has the work force, it's competitor has an idea but no money or resources to compete. The competitor cant mass produce, cant buy materials in bulk at discount like the monopoly can. The monopoly isn't particularly efficient, it mightn't have the best product but it has the money and the dominance to keep any potential competitors too small to become actual competitors.

    Like I said, what do you do, hit the reset button or regulate and break up the monopoly?


  • #71
    20Cent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,943 ✭✭✭20Cent


    I wish there was a libertarian party in Ireland. They are great at telling everyone else what they are doing wrong and how great libertarianism is online but never seem to be able to achieve anything in real life. It would be interesting to see how they got on.


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  • #72
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    20Cent wrote: »
    I wish there was a libertarian party in Ireland. They are great at telling everyone else what they are doing wrong and how great libertarianism is online but never seem to be able to achieve anything in real life. It would be interesting to see how they got on.
    Actually I think most of the libertarian-minded people on this forum are quite successful in high-level careers. Makes you wonder.


  • #73
    Endless Nameless
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 138 ✭✭Endless Nameless


    Channel Zero wrote: »
    Thanks but no thanks. I'd run down O'Connell St. naked myself if it means i don't get you guys coming door-to-door.

    Even if you don't agree with libertarianism as an ideology, I'm surprised you think it's a bad thing that a party wants to start up as an alternative to the Establishment parties


  • #74
    Dirk Gently
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,779 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    Soldie wrote: »
    one of the major contributory factors towards such monopolies is a tax structure which encourages the retention of corporate earnings.
    does he suggest a remedy for monopolies who retain accumulated wealth in the absence of government interference or does he assume the absence of government interference is enough in itself to avoid wealth concentration? Is the avoidance of wealth concentration even considered desirable to libertarians?


  • #75
    Soldie
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭Soldie


    Dirk Gently wrote: »
    does he suggest a remedy for monopolies who retain accumulated wealth in the absence of government interference or does he assume the absence of government interference is enough in itself to avoid wealth concentration? Is the avoidance of wealth concentration even considered desirable to libertarians?

    I think you'd be hard pressed to find examples of that, to be honest. In any case I think "interference" is probably the incorrect word to use in that, save for state companies, the government doesn't actively or directly enforce monopolies. Rather, it creates an environment which, indirectly, sees capital flow in predictable patterns.


  • #76
    V_Moth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭V_Moth


    Endless Nameless wrote: »
    How do you guys feel about the establishment of a libertarian party in Ireland?

    With the current climate and resentment towards most parties do you think it'd get much attention?

    I would oppose it, if necessary by force of arms. Everything about Libertarianism goes against the Constitution. Therefore any such party should not be allowed to exist in the state.


  • #77
    20Cent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,943 ✭✭✭20Cent


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Actually I think most of the libertarian-minded people on this forum are quite successful in high-level careers. Makes you wonder.

    Makes me wonder how come they can't get a party together, a website, have an AGM, a meeting, get a letter printed in a newspaper or anything offline. I can't even name a Irish libertarian, or a European one for that matter. It just seems to exist online. Wondering why that is if it's such a great idea.


  • #78
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    V_Moth wrote: »
    I would oppose it, if necessary by force of arms. Everything about Libertarianism goes against the Constitution. Therefore any such party should not be allowed to exist in the state.
    Examples please?


  • #79
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    20Cent wrote: »
    Makes me wonder how come they can't get a party together, a website, have an AGM, a meeting, get a letter printed in a newspaper or anything offline. I can't even name a Irish libertarian, or a European one for that matter. It just seems to exist online. Wondering why that is if it's such a great idea.
    Maybe we just don't want to be politicians? Ever considered that?


  • #80
    V_Moth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,421 ✭✭✭V_Moth


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Examples please?

    Well, the central tenet of Libertarianism is the abolition of the state. In that case, none of the rights upheld in the Constitution could be guaranteed as there would be no-one to ensure they are upheld.


  • #81
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    V_Moth wrote: »
    Well, the central tenet of Libertarianism is the abolition of the state. In that case, none of the rights upheld in the Constitution could be guaranteed as there would be no-one to ensure they are upheld.
    That's not correct at all. Abolition of government bodies is not the abolition of the state, the state exists as long as we exist.
    Article 5: Ireland is a sovereign, independent, democratic state.

    Its citizens are the sovereign.


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  • #82
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #83
    Dirk Gently
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,779 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    V_Moth wrote: »
    Well, the central tenet of Libertarianism is the abolition of the state. In that case, none of the rights upheld in the Constitution could be guaranteed as there would be no-one to ensure they are upheld.

    They're keeping the riot squad to maintain property rights and contracts. no need to worry.


  • #84
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Dirk Gently wrote: »
    They're keeping the riot squad to maintain property rights and contracts. no need to worry.
    An army kept for defence and An Garda Síochána could be kept too in many less severe leanings of libertarianism.


  • #85
    Endless Nameless
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 138 ✭✭Endless Nameless


    Dear Lord, that Communist Party looks organised.


  • #86
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Endless Nameless wrote: »
    Dear Lord, that Communist Party looks organised.
    Sweet retro Web 1.0 website they have there too :D


  • #87
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,302 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Actually I think most of the libertarian-minded people on this forum are quite successful in high-level careers. Makes you wonder.

    It does indeed, money and profit seems a driving motive with many, I suppose that fits in perfectly as profit is an integral part of it. My suspicion is libertarianism makes perfect sense to people who are money driven, so the politics suits their general outlook on life.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #88
    Dirk Gently
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,779 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    K-9 wrote: »
    It does indeed, money and profit seems a driving motive with many, I suppose that fits in perfectly as profit is an integral part of it. My suspicion is libertarianism makes perfect sense to people who are money driven, so the politics suits their general outlook on life.

    I was wondering if someone was going to pick up on that little gem. Certainly does make you wonder doesn't it.


  • #89
    Johnny Marr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10 ✭Johnny Marr


    20Cent wrote: »
    Makes me wonder how come they can't get a party together, a website, have an AGM, a meeting, get a letter printed in a newspaper or anything offline. I can't even name a Irish libertarian, or a European one for that matter. It just seems to exist online. Wondering why that is if it's such a great idea.

    Gerard Casey (UCD Philosophy prof. & CSP founder) is the only one I can think of. I know a few who are Tory/Republican/PD right, but would be considered fairly statist/socialist by some.

    In Northern Ireland there's Charles Symth of the "Pro-Capitalist" party. His vote increased from 22 in 2007 to 29 last year in Belfast South Assembly Constituency.
    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Maybe we just don't want to be politicians? Ever considered that?

    Maybe, but there's no lack of libertarians standing for elections in the US.


  • #90
    Channel Zero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 333 ✭✭Channel Zero


    20Cent wrote: »
    I can't even name a Irish libertarian, or a European one for that matter.

    That Ian O'Doherty of the Irish Independant is a libertarian, or so he says.


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  • #91
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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