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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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  • Options
    #6542
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Biggins wrote: »
    Aye, that many, it must have all slipped their minds instead.
    If only it had of been publicised and spoken about on tv, radio and the papers!
    Darn those media types - they never cover some large stories or events! :(
    I wouldn't be rushing to declare success (or indeed failure) of any non-payment campaign until after the date has passed. It doesn't need to be paid until the end of next week. Therefore logic suggests that most people intending to pay it won't pay it until then.

    Come back to the figures on 4th April and we can start talking about whether or not 1.3million people oppose this tax.

    What I find funny is the people clinging onto a figure of 250,000 which is now almost a week out of date as definitive proof of anything.


  • Options
    #6543
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Originally Posted by Biggins
    We can rush through fast enough, laws for the internet though, related copyright and for the drinks business, when FG and co fear their mates might be losing profit?
    alastair wrote: »
    Apples and Oranges - but then you knew that already.

    Personally I would have said they were all nuts!


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    #6544
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    seamus wrote: »
    I wouldn't be rushing to declare success (or indeed failure) of any non-payment campaign until after the date has passed. It doesn't need to be paid until the end of next week. Therefore logic suggests that most people intending to pay it won't pay it until then.

    Eddie Hobbs stated months back that everyone should pay - on the final day of the deadline, as anything else wasn't prudent money management. I wouldn't like to be maintaining their website that day.


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    #6545
    CajunOnTour
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭CajunOnTour


    donalg1 wrote: »
    So basically they are the same as every other government ever elected in every democratic election in the world throughout the history of time. How come when they were banging on about fixing the countries finances and not paying any attention to the EU IMF during their election campaign I knew this was a load of bull. It was obvious they would have to do exactly what they were told to do by the lads in Europe, I cant be the only one here to have known this.

    I'm with Bill here. The sheer scale of the sell-out; the implementation of polices that were as totally rejected as our electoral system can manage and the importance of the issue involved. Taken together, the promises made by Fg&Labour to win followed by the implementation of the rejected FF policies was a serious, very very serious, blow to Irish democracy and leaves a Government with no mandate to do the things it is doing.

    With respect, what you knew or didn't know is not important. And indeed there are many other countries in the world that claim to be democracies but obviously are not. Ireland has joined their ranks, or is coming close to doing so.


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    #6546
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    CajunOnTour wrote: »
    I'm with Bill here. The sheer scale of the sell-out; the implementation of polices that were as totally rejected as our electoral system can manage and the importance of the issue involved. Taken together, the promises made by Fg&Labour to win followed by the implementation of the rejected FF policies was a serious, very very serious, blow to Irish democracy and leaves a Government with no mandate to do the things it is doing.

    With respect, what you knew or didn't know is not important. And indeed there are many other countries in the world that claim to be democracies but obviously are not. Ireland has joined their ranks, or is coming close to doing so.

    Why did you think that they were ever going to be able to follow through on their promises given that they would have no power at all?


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    #6547
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    donalg1 wrote: »
    The sooner you realise we are ruled by Europe the better you will be, you could even take the tin foil hat off then.

    So, you are now joining Alistair in conceding that Ireland isn't a democracy? :rolleyes:

    Amazing the way the "lunatic" reaction I get when I first start to explain this (at various points through the thread) turns into converts to reality after some tuition from me.

    Maybe my educational programme is actually working? :cool:


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    #6548
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    CajunOnTour wrote: »
    I'm with Bill here. The sheer scale of the sell-out; the implementation of polices that were as totally rejected as our electoral system can manage and the importance of the issue involved. Taken together, the promises made by Fg&Labour to win followed by the implementation of the rejected FF policies was a serious, very very serious, blow to Irish democracy and leaves a Government with no mandate to do the things it is doing.

    With respect, what you knew or didn't know is not important. And indeed there are many other countries in the world that claim to be democracies but obviously are not. Ireland has joined their ranks, or is coming close to doing so.


    No idea why anyone would think two parties that for certain areas have very conflicting ideas would ever be able to fulfill all election promises in a system that very rarely grants single party power.


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    #6549
    CajunOnTour
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 82 ✭✭CajunOnTour


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Why did you think that they were ever going to be able to follow through on their promises given that they would have no power at all?

    They were able to follow through. They chose not to. That's were the damage to Democracy was done.

    There are alternative policies spelt out by very many economists and politicians from Shane Ross to Sinn Fein and even some people in the IMF. Under threat from Europe they buckled and surrendered to save the EU banking system (and their own pensions and grossly excessive salaries).

    They had no mandate to do that, the very opposite in fact. And now that they have decided to screw their citizens to pay the Europeans they find they have no mandate to to that either.


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    #6550
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    CajunOnTour wrote: »
    Taken together, the promises made by Fg&Labour to win followed by the implementation of the rejected FF policies was a serious, very very serious, blow to Irish democracy and leaves a Government with no mandate to do the things it is doing.
    And yet the recent opinion polls largely show FG holding its position, Labour loseing some ground, but the coalition would be re-elected if a GE was to be called now.

    The idea that the government has no mandate isn't living in the real world. It'll be there for another few years - get used to it.


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    #6551
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    So, you are now joining Alistair in conceding that Ireland isn't a democracy? :rolleyes:

    Amazing the way the "lunatic" reaction I get when I first start to explain this (at various points through the thread) turns into converts to reality after some tuition from me.

    Maybe my educational programme is actually working? :cool:

    Ha ha laughing my ass off here, good god, do you really think I would listen to the ramblings of a crazy person?

    Your loony view of the world is absolutely mental, funny but fricking crazy.

    "Some tuition from you" gets crazier by the post, cant believe you think you are tutoring anyone in the ways of the world, unbelievable, great entertainment but unbelievable all the same.

    Ireland is a democracy because the people can vote for who they would like to see sitting in the Dail simple as that.

    You have given me a great idea though come the next election I will run myself as an independent and promise everyone everything, I will promise to borrow a trillion euro from Europe then turn around and tell them to bugger off that they will never see another cent from Ireland and we can all live like kings off the trillion euro. Everybody gets everything they want, no taxes for anyone, everyone paid a million quid a year. Sure I will definitely get elected, get a nice salary for myself good pension, and then I can crack on with doing nothing but what Europe tells me to do.

    I never realised there were so many gullible people in this country that would vote for me based on my election promises no matter how absurd they are. And sure what will happen when I dont deliver on these promises, few people on an Internet forum saying I am an illegitimate Taoiseach, whoopdy doo. A small little protest here and there about how I am treating everyone unfairly, wow who cares I wont sure I will be gone off with my pension and name in the history book as a one time democratically elected Taoiseach of this country


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    #6552
    xflyer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭xflyer


    alastair wrote: »
    Eddie Hobbs stated months back that everyone should pay - on the final day of the deadline, as anything else wasn't prudent money management. I wouldn't like to be maintaining their website that day.
    I think the website is safe enough. There will be a final rush of the waverers but an awful lot of people will not be paying this ridiculous and unfair charge.

    Then the nightmare begins, for the people tasked with tracking down the non payers like me. They have to compile a list of everyone who hasn't registered. How is that going to work? Unless you've registered you won't be on their list. Half the reason for this tax is simply an information gathering exercise so they can get an idea of who owns what and where for future taxes like water rates and property taxes.

    Sure they have access to other databases but if they use them they'll end up sending threatening letters to dead people, people who've paid, people who don't have to pay like tenants. People like my eighty six year old Mother living on her state pension.

    If enough people don't pay the sheer cost of collecting the money will exceed any benefit it gains. I suspect the government are in a state of near panic at the way this is going, particularly the Labour party.

    If I'm tracked down, I'll be happy to pay it and the fine. But I'm not worried too much. The most likely scenario is that the government will do nothing except mutter threats about how we'll all pay dearly for this. There won't be court cases either as they'll do anything to prevent Joe Higgins from having his day in court.

    It's a typical Irish farce!


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    #6553
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    seamus wrote: »
    But why do you believe that payment has to be requested? Do you withhold your PAYE until revenue come calling for it? Any contest on the grounds that you received no request for payment would be swiftly defeated and you'll be left with a huge legal bill. It's not a service charge, it's a law. Notice is not required, it's your obligation to comply with it.

    If they don't ask for it how am I to know I should pay it? Seriously though, yes, I get a bi-monthly request from Revenue for PAYE and PRSI and on foot of it pay my taxes. I am self-employed, so can slip your example ;)

    My recollection from being employed is you get a payslip, a P60 and other notifications - addressed to you - advising what taxes are due.

    As I said, I have no problem paying it, but if there is a law I should be advised of it, and if there is a requirement from me to make payment I should be informed - personally.

    I looked on their website and it nowhere that I can see refers to any law, and calls the charge essential to fund local services. Maybe I'm a pedant, but that's a lot like service charge to me.


  • Options
    #6554
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    xflyer wrote: »

    Then the nightmare begins, for the people tasked with tracking down the non payers like me. They have to compile a list of everyone who hasn't registered. How is that going to work? Unless you've registered you won't be on their list. Half the reason for this tax is simply an information gathering exercise so they can get an idea of who owns what and where for future taxes like water rates and property taxes.

    Sure they have access to other databases but if they use them they'll end up sending threatening letters to dead people, people who've paid, people who don't have to pay like tenants. People like my eighty six year old Mother living on her state pension.

    Pensioners tax letters Mk II
    THE pensioner tax controversy descended into farce last night after thousands of retirees were told to pay income tax they do not owe.
    Revenue officials admitted they will hit 15,000 people who have small occupational pensions with a higher tax bill.
    But the tax hit will only be temporary because these people are exempt. That means the taxman will take the money -- for a while -- and then return it to the pensioners.
    The bizarre decision raises serious questions about Revenue's handling of what has now become a fiasco.
    However, the reality for thousands of elderly people now is confusion and a sense of alienation, according to Pensions Ombudsman Paul Kenny.
    He revealed yesterday that dozens of pensioners had been upset on the phone because of the anxiety and fear generated by the tax demands.
    "They were not able to get through to the Revenue so they rang us and they were in tears," he said.
    Mr Kenny said it was "disturbing" that people who were not liable for any extra tax on pension income had received letters about the issue.


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/pensioners-told-to-pay-tax-they-do-not-owe-2983530.html

    A PR nightmare.
    Good enough for the stuffed shirts.


  • Options
    #6555
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Ha ha laughing my ass off here, good god, do you really think I would listen to the ramblings of a crazy person?

    Your loony view of the world is absolutely mental, funny but fricking crazy.

    "Some tuition from you" gets crazier by the post, cant believe you think you are tutoring anyone in the ways of the world, unbelievable, great entertainment but unbelievable all the same.

    Ireland is a democracy because the people can vote for who they would like to see sitting in the Dail simple as that.

    You have given me a great idea though come the next election I will run myself as an independent and promise everyone everything, I will promise to borrow a trillion euro from Europe then turn around and tell them to bugger off that they will never see another cent from Ireland and we can all live like kings off the trillion euro. Everybody gets everything they want, no taxes for anyone, everyone paid a million quid a year. Sure I will definitely get elected, get a nice salary for myself good pension, and then I can crack on with doing nothing but what Europe tells me to do.

    I never realised there were so many gullible people in this country that would vote for me based on my election promises no matter how absurd they are. And sure what will happen when I dont deliver on these promises, few people on an Internet forum saying I am an illegitimate Taoiseach, whoopdy doo. A small little protest here and there about how I am treating everyone unfairly, wow who cares I wont sure I will be gone off with my pension and name in the history book as a one time democratically elected Taoiseach of this country

    Ignoring the personal abuse I will merely point out that you stated it was time I realised that we "are ruled by Europe".

    If that is the case then Ireland is not a democracy.

    The USA (may be) a democracy; but Illinois is not. To be a democracy a country must be sovereign.

    Carlow Town Council is elected by democratic means; that doesn't mean that "Carlow Town is a Democracy"

    I realize you are probably feeling a bit frustrated at finding yourself out of your intellectual comfort zone - perhaps out of your depth (a situation you won't improve by reading the posts or your "allies" here) - but I would ask that you tone down the personal abuse directed at myself.

    Thanking you in anticipation. :cool:


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    #6556
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Mr. Presentable wrote: »
    If they don't ask for it how am I to know I should pay it? Seriously though, yes, I get a bi-monthly request from Revenue for PAYE and PRSI and on foot of it pay my taxes. I am self-employed, so can slip your example ;)
    Are you sure it's not a reminder? Most self-employed people I know get no bills to pay PAYE or PRSI at any stage. They get reminders, but that's because they've registered. When you first started working for yourself, you registered didn't you? Revenue didn't magically know that you were due to pay tax :) You could have worked for yourself and not paid tax on the basis that no-one ever asked you to. Why did you register and pay?
    My recollection from being employed is you get a payslip, a P60 and other notifications - addressed to you - advising what taxes are due.
    Nope. It advises you what taxes have already been paid. It's a receipt, effectively.
    I looked on their website and it nowhere that I can see refers to any law, and calls the charge essential to fund local services. Maybe I'm a pedant, but that's a lot like service charge to me.
    The law is referred to a number of times in the FAQ on the website, including links.


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    #6557
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    I think I can hear the rumble of tanks and heavy artillery being brought up to the front. Expect a few heavy volleys from the scaremongers lads.


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    #6558
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I think I can hear the rumble of tanks and heavy artillery being brought up to the front. Expect a few heavy volleys from the scaremongers lads.

    Incoming!!!!

    http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR6jzEtThyLcUzm5d7nIE1fSnVQwuw53OtJ_VRUYlMIPwJE6FtAyqV6Nsks


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    #6559
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Why are renters exempted from paying for council facilities which this tax is going to pay? That is BS!


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    #6560
    xflyer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭xflyer


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Why are renters exempted from paying for council facilities which this tax is going to pay? That is BS!
    Simple this is preparation for the introduction of a full property tax. Tenants don't own property. This tax is simply a way of finding out who owns what and were so we can all be fleeced.


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    #6561
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Why are renters exempted from paying for council facilities which this tax is going to pay? That is BS!

    Easier to charge the landlord and let him pass it on in rent.


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    #6562
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    xflyer wrote: »
    Simple this is preparation for the introduction of a full property tax. Tenants don't own property. This tax is simply a way of finding out who owns what and were so we can all be fleeced.

    For fleeced, see taxed.

    They already know who owns what. Stamp duty records, mortgage relief records, Registry of Deeds, etc etc. Fairly straightforward task to merge a few databases.


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    #6563
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Why are renters exempted from paying for council facilities which this tax is going to pay? That is BS!

    Private landlords will pay, so they can choose to pass this on to tenants via rental costs. People who live in council housing are exempt, which does seem a bit unfair.
    The household charge applies to residential property generally, including those properties that are liable to the €200 charge on Non-Principal Private Residences


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    #6564
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    alastair wrote: »
    For fleeced, see taxed.

    They already know who owns what. Stamp duty records, mortgage relief records, Registry of Deeds, etc etc. Fairly straightforward task to merge a few databases.

    Yeahhhh, so simple............ just like ppars, pulse, means testing childrens allowance...............


  • Options
    #6565
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    mikom wrote: »
    Yeahhhh, so simple............ just like ppars, pulse, means testing childrens allowance...............

    No - nothing like any of those examples. There's no means testing, no new technology, no roll out concerns - it's a database merge task.


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    #6566
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    alastair wrote: »
    No - nothing like any of those examples. There's no means testing, no new technology, no roll out concerns - it's a database merge task.

    As simple as sending out a few leaflets...........


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    #6567
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    dvpower wrote: »
    Private landlords will pay, so they can choose to pass this on to tenants via rental costs. People who live in council housing are exempt, which does seem a bit unfair.

    They are essentially rewarding these people with yet another exemption.:rolleyes:


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    #6568
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    alastair wrote: »
    For fleeced, see taxed.

    They already know who owns what. Stamp duty records, mortgage relief records, Registry of Deeds, etc etc. Fairly straightforward task to merge a few databases.

    Why register then, if we are already registered?


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    #6569
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    mikom wrote: »
    As simple as sending out a few leaflets...........

    If you're trying to tell yourself they can't manage this task, then you'd be wrong - they can.


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    #6570
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    mikom wrote: »
    Yeahhhh, so simple............ just like ppars, pulse, means testing childrens allowance...............
    You might tender for the gig yourself mikom

    http://etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=MAR322235


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    #6571
    Beubeu
    Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭Beubeu


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    Why are renters exempted from paying for council facilities which this tax is going to pay? That is BS!

    Even if I agree with a property tax I actually agree with you and the unfairness of this tax (especially since we all know that owning a property in Ireland doesnt mean being rich).

    In France they have 2 type of taxes related to a house. The tax on property which is a tax on wealth. And a local tax which is connecting to where you live and it covers bin charges, school, roads etc...
    Basicly if you buy a house and rent it you will never pay this local tax simply because you dont get any benefits from it.

    Don't understand why this gvt doesn't want to do that. It brings a level of fairness and make everybody contribute.


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