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Force a Referendum on the Property Tax

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    #32
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Sudsy86 wrote: »
    I'm sure you are not disagreeing that their are more spending custs required...Your question is very valid...A massive reduction of the public sector pay bill would be a nice start but I didn't now want to say as threads have a nice ability in going off topic when these are mentioned...)

    A massive reduction of the public sector pay bill, I assume by cutting pay to public servants again. Two questions:

    (1) Do you know how much the pay bill (not including pensions) has gone down by already?
    (2) What strategy do you have for dealing with the inevitable strike action?
    Sudsy86 wrote: »

    I may not have made my point about wages difference clearer...Cost of living in this country is the same for every person with or without a job...Now its is getting extremely more difficult to get pay increases as most employers play the recession card but this does not mean the cost of living is decreasing in tune with the reduction in wages...)

    Yes, it is getting extremely more difficult to get pay increases as employers play the recession card but you are advocating pay cuts for the public sector and you are crying about no pay increases for the private sector? Lots of people working in companies in the private sector got increases this year, about 2% being the norm, mostly in large retail, pharma companies, IT companies, union-organised companies etc.

    Sudsy86 wrote: »
    Ya ok God given was the wrong choice of words but again we all curse in the name of god out of habit...

    That is the point on the agenda, where are they going...I wish I could answer this...

    Iceland's GDP from what I have read will recover alot faster than ours...For one the stood up to EU and burned their bondholders (this is not an excuse for not paying the tax, its an example of the ppl of iceland standing up for what they believe is right decision for them)

    Do you want to live in Iceland and eat nothing but fish for the next fifty years? Iceland is far from recovered, its economy collapsed further than Ireland's and its net growth since 2006 is less than Ireland's. Its ability to borrow on the bond markets is limited - one of the advantages of the EU/IMF bailout is that we are paying around 3% for our borrowing, Iceland is paying a lot more.


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    #33
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    The property tax would have to require a constitutional amendment to be constitutional. Step one would be to identify how the proposed tax is unconstitutional.


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    #34
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    I don't get it. Nobody here has suggested the property tax is unconstitutional.


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    #35
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Sudsy86 wrote: »
    I'm sure you are not disagreeing that their are more spending custs required...
    No I’m not, I’m just highly sceptical that cuts alone can balance the books.
    Sudsy86 wrote: »
    I may not have made my point about wages difference clearer...Cost of living in this country is the same for every person with or without a job...Now its is getting extremely more difficult to get pay increases as most employers play the recession card but this does not mean the cost of living is decreasing in tune with the reduction in wages...
    Gross salaries in Ireland, on average, have not decreased to any significant extent over the last number of years (although net salaries will have due to increased deductions).
    Sudsy86 wrote: »
    That is the point on the agenda, where are they going...I wish I could answer this...
    They’re going to the exchequer to lower the budget deficit.
    Sudsy86 wrote: »
    Iceland's GDP from what I have read will recover alot faster than ours...For one the stood up to EU and burned their bondholders (this is not an excuse for not paying the tax, its an example of the ppl of iceland standing up for what they believe is right decision for them)
    It’s already been pointed out on this thread, but the situation in Iceland has been portrayed in a rather creative manner on more than one occasion.
    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    I'd go with cutting back to a small budget deficit...
    Ok, but do you think a small budget deficit is obtainable through spending cuts alone?


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    #36
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    later12 wrote: »
    I don't get it. Nobody here has suggested the property tax is unconstitutional.
    So why would we need a referendum on it? Unless the suggestion is that we hold an Ordinary Referendum for the first time in the state (still don't see a good reason for that though)?

    If this thread falls at the most basic of hurdles I'm surprised it's still open.


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    #37
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    So why would we need a referendum on it?
    Did you read the OP?

    He is talking about a new constitutional proposal, not the amendment of an existing provision.


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    #38
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    later12 wrote: »
    Did you read the OP?

    He is talking about a new constitutional proposal, not the amendment of an existing provision.
    I did, but perhaps the quality leaves something to be desired (or else you just like to disagree with everything I say because you're bored or something)
    Seeing as the governement are going to force deduction-at-source, why can we not as people force a referendum on the issue?

    Point 1: which indicates that the referendum is necessary because of the "force[d] deduction-at-source" being the reason we should force a referendum on the "issue".
    I propose the following to be campaigned for inclusion in the constitution -

    "The family home, that is the primary residence of the family, shall be free from property taxes or rates"

    Point 2: Suggesting a flawed from the start proposal to add an additional article to the constitution which is, frankly, ridiculous.


    I'm asking, as per the thread title - why would we need a referendum on the property tax?


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    #39
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    I'm glad you have now read the OP.

    The OP is suggesting that an impermissibility of the introduction of a property tax/ domestic rates be established at constitutional level. If you have a problem with that, step one is questioning the desirability of a constitutional provision. Step one is not "to identify how the proposed tax is unconstitutional" as you suggested - for this suggests you thought the argument was that the property tax is not constitutional.


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    #40
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    You believe the OP is stating that it is not permissible to introduce a property tax without doing so at the constitutional level? Hm.
    No.

    I believe the OP wishes for there to be a constitutional provision rendering the introduction of such a tax by Government impossible. I believe his or her statement to that effect (whatever about the value of such a suggestion) would be glaringly obvious to anyone who read the OP.


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    #41
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,465 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    djpbarry wrote: »
    This has got absolutely nothing to do with "the banks". It's real simple - Ireland is spending way more than it can afford to on welfare and public sector salaries. Realistically, spending cuts alone are not going to plug the gap in spending, so the overall tax take has to be raised.

    Yep, Ireland is spending more than it takes in, that is very obvious.
    But to suggest that this property tax and a whole host of other measures have gotten "nothing to do with the banks" is to have a very small view on a very small picture.

    The country has taken on the debts of many private institutions, at great cost to this and future generations. These decisions were made on the fly without the consent of the population. We would hold a referendum for a hell of a lot less.

    I realise we have a major sovereign deficit and this has to be tackled but this has been made all the worse (lack of options for borrowing etc) by our massive exposure to banking debt.

    People have a right to link this and other measures to where the money gets spent. We've been told it gets spent locally. The reality is we have 3.1 billion to repay as part of the Anglo bailout this month as well as many more billions over the next number of years and an unknown amount of taxes to come down the line.


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    #42
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Perhaps "understanding" the OP requires either no legal knowledge or a suspension of same.

    The presumption here is that it is possible to somehow "force" a referendum to amend the Constitution on a whim. In reality, we have two possibilities:
    1. There is a Constitutionality issue with the proposed tax in relation to our Constitution as it stands. Therefore we would need to either alter the Constitution to allow a property tax, or we could not have one as it is somehow inconsistent with the current law.
    2. There is the 31st Amendment Bill proposed in the Dáil (the very people that have proposed the property tax) to amend the Constitution to state that "The family home, that is the primary residence of the family, shall be free from property taxes or rates".

    It would require 109 members of government and those opposition party members that support the property tax to simultaneously have a stroke to have any chance of happening in reality. Are we in la-la land here or am I missing something?

    So yes, pardon me for thinking that the OP may have believed there was some level of unconstitutionality in there being a property tax, because otherwise it's unmitigated nonsense.


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    #43
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    later12 wrote: »
    I'm glad you have now read the OP.

    The OP is suggesting that an impermissibility of the introduction of a property tax/ domestic rates be established at constitutional level. If you have a problem with that, step one is questioning the desirability of a constitutional provision. Step one is not "to identify how the proposed tax is unconstitutional" as you suggested - for this suggests you thought the argument was that the property tax is not constitutional.

    Can we perhaps manage with a little less of the snide?

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #44
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Perhaps "understanding" the OP requires either no legal knowledge or a suspension of same.

    The presumption here is that it is possible to somehow "force" a referendum to amend the Constitution on a whim. In reality, we have two possibilities:
    1. There is a Constitutionality issue with the proposed tax in relation to our Constitution as it stands. Therefore we would need to either alter the Constitution to allow a property tax, or we could not have one as it is somehow inconsistent with the current law.
    2. There is the 31st Amendment Bill proposed in the Dáil (the very people that have proposed the property tax) to amend the Constitution to state that "The family home, that is the primary residence of the family, shall be free from property taxes or rates".

    It would require 109 members of government and those opposition party members that support the property tax to simultaneously have a stroke to have any chance of happening in reality. Are we in la-la land here or am I missing something?

    So yes, pardon me for thinking that the OP may have believed there was some level of unconstitutionality in there being a property tax, because otherwise it's unmitigated nonsense.


    My reading of the OP is that the deduction at source part may cause a constitutional difficulty.

    The actual Referendum wording seems to be a different matter again.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #45
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    K-9 wrote: »
    My reading of the OP is that the deduction at source part may cause a constitutional difficulty.

    The actual Referendum wording seems to be a different matter again.
    That was mine too, but that brought on accusations that I hadn't read the OP. Perhaps I have missed the point as to what the rationale is for these types of deductions being unconstitutional or questionable on constitutional grounds though - it's an interesting, albeit extraordinarily hypothetical, question.


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    #46
    Ellis Dee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    There is no such thing as a free lunch (that would be ilmainen lounas in Olli Rehn's mother tongue) and no government can function without tax revenues. If they don't collect it one way, they'll just do it another way. How efficiently the tax revenues are used is, of course, another matter, but in the end it is up to us, the citizens, to be vigilant and make sure as little as possible of the money is wasted.:) But that does not change the fact that money has to be raised.

    As for property tax, I'm not exactly thrilled at the thought of paying it, but €100 isn't going to hit me too hard and I'm glad I don't have to pay rent and have something to leave the kids when I shuffle off this mortal coil.:D

    A referendum and the campaign associated with it would only cost millions more. And where is that going to come from if not from more taxes, fees or levies of some kind or other? Besides, our legislators need to concentrate as much as possible right now on sorting out the mess the country is in rather than fighting a referendum campaign, unless we want to continue to get lectures in Latin from a Finn.


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    #47
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    K-9 wrote: »
    Why would they have a right to own it? We had that thinking during the bubble and it didn't get us too far.

    Nobody has a right to own a home and there are measures the Government use to ensure everybody has a roof over their head, though sometimes imperfect, Rent Allowance and Council housing the two main ones.

    So we follow the Germans in this too then.
    Next we'll be putting out our towels on the beaches.


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    #48
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    That was mine too, but that brought on accusations that I hadn't read the OP. Perhaps I have missed the point as to what the rationale is for these types of deductions being unconstitutional or questionable on constitutional grounds though - it's an interesting, albeit extraordinarily hypothetical, question.

    I don't know myself, we seem have a new breed of legal experts these days, seems quite the in thing these days along with economists!

    I suppose PAYE/PRSI are deducted at source but seeing as this is a self assessment tax I don't know if they could deduct it from wages. There's a notion that they may use utility bills to deduct it but can't see it being a political runner, never mind constitutional matters.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #49
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    tayto lover wrote: »
    So we follow the Germans in this too then.
    Next we'll be putting out our towels on the beaches.

    Follow the Germans in what? The right to housing or the right to own a house? Do they even have a property tax, I don't have a clue.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #50
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    kippy wrote: »
    Yep, Ireland is spending more than it takes in, that is very obvious.
    But to suggest that this property tax and a whole host of other measures have gotten "nothing to do with the banks" is to have a very small view on a very small picture.
    It really isn't. Ireland splurged on the back of stamp duty and other consumer-related receipts. Those receipts have now dried up. Something has to plug the gap (and spending has to be reigned in). Banks do not feature.


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    #51
    Old Tom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭Old Tom


    jank wrote: »
    Eh, no. How are we going to pay for services?
    Exactly the same way as we used to be paying for the past 50+ years...?
    jank wrote: »
    Property taxes is a thing that is very common in the western world.
    Great, that is brilliant justification. What else is common in the western world and as such we have to adopt it?? 40% corporate tax perhaps? :rolleyes:


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    #52
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Old Tom wrote: »
    Exactly the same way as we used to be paying for the past 50+ years...?
    Another property bubble?


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    #53
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,465 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    djpbarry wrote: »
    It really isn't. Ireland splurged on the back of stamp duty and other consumer-related receipts. Those receipts have now dried up. Something has to plug the gap (and spending has to be reigned in). Banks do not feature.

    So Ireland hasn't taken on the debts of private banks?
    Ultimately, whether you like it or not, banks in this country were allowed gamble, bondholders of these banks were gambling and the nation has picked up the can. I wish I had the same level of security in my investments that some of the initial bondholders appear to have had.

    I get the whole spending has to be reigned in, but you cannot discount the actions of banks, the debts of banks and the desicions made to continue repaying the majority of banking dept at almost full whack.

    The bank guarantee scheme (and everything tied to it, including NAMA)had a major part to play in our requirement to go to the IMF/EU cap in hand and it will have a major part to play in future when we want to borrow money elsewhere.


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    #54
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Old Tom wrote: »
    Exactly the same way as we used to be paying for the past 50+ years...?

    Development Levies or Domestic Rates??

    If levies then this:
    ONE county council has recorded a near 16-fold drop in development levies because of the falloff in construction work.

    Clare County Council has confirmed that €11.3m was gathered in development contributions in 2007, but this fell to just €720,000 in the first 11 months of last year.
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/council-hit-by-16fold-drop-in-development-levies-2487629.html

    Now what? Rates? Aren't they a property tax?

    :confused:


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    #55
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    kippy wrote: »
    I get the whole spending has to be reigned in, but you cannot discount the actions of banks, the debts of banks and the desicions made to continue repaying the majority of banking dept at almost full whack.

    The main point is the money we're overspending right now, up to €15 billion, is not being put into the banks. The majority of the money we borrowed was not put into the banks full stop.

    So Tax revenue + 15 billion Troika borrowing = Government services + PS Pay and Social Welfare. We then get addition money to pay bondholders etc. Even if we don't pay a red cent to the banks now we still need that 15 billion. Government efficiency would be great but it's going to have to be coupled with additional taxes no matter what. No one wants to pay taxes but the reality is we are going to be paying more tax. Frankly most people should be applauding the introduction of a real property tax as it's a sustainable tax on wealth and as taxes go it's a fair one.


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    #56
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    A house is for living - it is not a wealth generator.


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    #57
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Manach wrote: »
    A house is for living - it is not a wealth generator.
    So there goes apartment rental! How is everyone expected to buy their own home?

    As an aside, I hope that we see a property tax that is fairly measured; how about a 10 year fixed tax of 0.1% per annum of the value of your property (either appraised right now or based on future sales) on the owner of the property and a flat €50 per annum "household charge" for renters?


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    #58
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Manach wrote: »
    A house is for living - it is not a wealth generator.

    Not sure if that was directed at me as I didn't say a house was a wealth generator. I said a real property tax is a sustainable tax on wealth, which it is.


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    #59
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    So there goes apartment rental! How is everyone expected to buy their own home?
    Gosh - Ask the government, I'm sure that they have a solution for everything. Though it will involve obtaining more money and expanding the reach of their services.


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    #60
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Manach wrote: »
    Gosh - Ask the government, I'm sure that they have a solution for everything. Though it will involve obtaining more money and expanding the reach of their services.
    So your answer is that all renters must rent from the government? Crazy stuff.


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    #61
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    kippy wrote: »
    So Ireland hasn't taken on the debts of private banks?
    Sure did, but I'm at a loss as to why this is used as an argument against just about any fiscal policy put forward by the government?

    It's real simple:

    Tax Revenue <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Welfare + Public Sector pay

    Furthermore:

    (Welfare + Public Sector Pay - Tax Revenue) * x >>>>>> Cost of bank recapitalisations

    where x is the number of years it takes Ireland to balance the books.


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