Considering our history of defiance and revolution, why are we now so apathetic?

munkifisht · 14-03-2012 07:34PM #1

Up front I will admit that I am as guilty as anyone of what I am about to discuss, and in writing this perhaps even more so, but I am keen to hear other peoples views and theories.

We have a history of a nation that stood up to the English and their tyrannical rule constantly during their 800 year occupation of this country (no, they do not occupy the North any more, the majority in that area want a union - deal with democracy), but today, as the rest of Europe rises up to defy unjust austerity measures we in Ireland are happy to let that suppurating little worm Edna to go cap in hand to the EU to beg for a token respite in the from of a longer period of time to repay the so-called promissory notes and we as a people are quite happy to let this type of thing go on. Hearing his pathetic whinge to our Kaiser overlords on the radio today reminded me of Oliver Twists "Please sir, can I have some more" line. As a people, we have no concept of people power. None. And this when you consider the year that has just gone where two tyrannical regimes in the middle east have toppled due in no small part to the power of social media, and over the past week and a bit Joseph Kony has been transformed into one of the most famous men in the world due to YouTube.

What is even more surprising is that when people do try and stand up (or sit down in the case of the occupy movement) the general consensus seems to be "bloody wasters, why do they get a job and re stimulate the economy, don't they see that newsagents over there is loosing money". Not only do we have no time to protest ourselves, but we will expend energy in lambasting those who at least try to make a difference (I will say here I do think the ODS movement did have some success in that a handful of people were able to make national headlines to highlight an arguably just cause).

We moan and moan in the pub about what's happened to us since the heady heights of the Celtic Tiger, and of course everyone is now an expert on promissory notes, income taxes, budgets, public service waste, what we should do next and when the property market is going to finally do what the titanic eventually did also and bottom out, but will we do anything about it, hell no. We voted for Fianna Mash-up (seriously, what's the flipping difference between FF or FG except for Cowen) or Labor a little over a year ago, and we will wait 4 more years until we can make another collective mistake. We lap up the propaganda shoveled down our throats by lazy journalists who are happy to garner the vast majority of the drivel they slop on paper via press conferences, and above all we are absolutely terrified of offending any multinational or government willing to make money off our back. We refuse to step out and stand up and let the policy makers and those in Europe know that we're not happy. How can we be like this when we, Hibernia, a tiny nation on a small rock in the Atlantic managed to stand up to our bully neighbor, the largest empire the world has ever known, for over 800 years.

But I do have a theory, and I don't think it is all due to apathy. I think that despite the rhetoric that is spouted about the damn good trashing we gave em black n tans, how we all boisterously roar rebel songs in drunken hazes, and how we all had a Granddad who fought in the rising, the truth then is the same as it is now. We are a nation that was historically beaten down on two fronts, firstly by the churches ultra conservatism and secondly by the Brits second class citizen in our own country attitude. I don't think I'm wrong in saying this, but the vast majority of Irish people have never wanted to rise up and fight, it has always been a minority who have been looked on unfavorably by the majority around them as trouble makers and upstarts.

It is that molding of our national identity that has led us today to whispering of conspiracy while we sip our over priced pints, all of us sure that what is happening to us is patently unjust, but who are at a base level whimpering cowards who are terrified that anyone who speaks out will suffer the wrath of the EMFs cane. We have been bred into a country of people scared to challenge any authority. Indeed we mock those who even try to do it.

As my old buddy Billy B Yeats said,
"Romantic Ireland's dead and gone--
It's with O'Leary in the grave"

Amirani · 14-03-2012 08:16PM

I don't think our collective population ever took a considered stance against the English occupation of the island. It was always small, guerrilla type groups that aspired to any sort of defiance and revolution. The 1916 rising itself was quite unpopular. Public opinion only swung in favour of the rebels after their execution.

Also, I don't think any show of defiance is going to improve our current situation and most people realise this. They just get on with it.

woodoo · 14-03-2012 09:21PM

We allowed ourselves to be treated very badly by the British and we basically turned away from our own language. I don't think we were ever really defiant. We turned on each other if anything.

munkifisht · 14-03-2012 09:36PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

I don't think our collective population ever took a considered stance against the English occupation of the island. It was always small, guerrilla type groups that aspired to any sort of defiance and revolution. The 1916 rising itself was quite unpopular. Public opinion only swung in favour of the rebels after their execution.

Well exactly. Since the fall of the O'Neills and the flight of the Earls in 1607 this country hasn't been unified under a banner of defiance for any cause (except of course under the banner of Daz for Whiter Whites).

NiallSparky wrote: »

Also, I don't think any show of defiance is going to improve our current situation and most people realise this. They just get on with it.

Does this not exactly prove that point?

rasper · 14-03-2012 09:45PM

We have and seemingly always will be under one jackboot or another be it British , roman or euro

Sunnyisland · 14-03-2012 10:16PM

I would be thinking the reason maybe that after 30 odd years of troubles/war/rebellion etc in the north of Ireland that a lot of people old enough to remember it and others been told so much about it,That the idea of violence happening on our cities and towns is a bit to much to fathom,For the most part we are all enjoying our peaceful freedoms & wouldn't have the stomach for it.imo of course.

john reilly · 14-03-2012 10:26PM

realistically we have by of deband large rolled over for anybody who wanted to run the country and those who rebelled were despised for rocking the boat. greece got a write dod the gwn of debt because the people anoverement rocked the boat. the irish people and goverment have again rolled over why would anybody give us a deal when are goverment proudly admitted it hasnt even asked.

JoeGil · 14-03-2012 10:47PM

What is there to stand up against?
Ireland voted to join the EU in 1973. Since then we received billions of EU subsidies to convert from a a backward agrarian society to a modern economy. Now that the FF governement and bankers spent a decade wrecking the country Europe has had to come back in and save the day again.

Amirani · 14-03-2012 11:47PM

john reilly wrote: »

realistically we have by of deband large rolled over for anybody who wanted to run the country and those who rebelled were despised for rocking the boat. greece got a write dod the gwn of debt because the people anoverement rocked the boat. the irish people and goverment have again rolled over why would anybody give us a deal when are goverment proudly admitted it hasnt even asked.

Greece didn't get a write-down on their debt because people were rioting in Athens. The write-down was allowed purely to stabilise a crumbling Eurozone and thus protect the larger economies against the repercussions of Greek bankruptcy.

munkifisht · 15-03-2012 12:00AM

JoeGil wrote: »

What is there to stand up against?
Ireland voted to join the EU in 1973. Since then we received billions of EU subsidies to convert from a a backward agrarian society to a modern economy. Now that the FF governement and bankers spent a decade wrecking the country Europe has had to come back in and save the day again.

I think the point is being missed here. Firstly we are talking about legitimate peaceful protest, not radical violent riots, secondly the point is not that we are too lazy to protest the EU, but that we are too lazy to protest anything, including corrupt politicians, giving away our natural resources, letting banks that we've bailed out to fire its staff and refuse to give its customers, and in a sense, owners, similar debt forgiveness for starters.

I'm so completely surprised at how like cattle being hearded to the abattoir we simply go with the flow without showing and signs of discontent. Is it so surprising then to see FF are deluded enough to host a back slapping conference while outside people are queuing to leave the country?

K-9 · 15-03-2012 12:19AM

We have a history of generally peaceful protest since the state was founded, farmers, PAYE workers in the 80's, pensioners a couple of years ago etc. We don't have a violent history like Greece, the French farmers etc.

Jaafa · 15-03-2012 12:26AM

I think the weather is a factor.

'Hey John will we go start a riot later on''?

'I dunno Brian, heard there's gona be rain'

'Ah suppose, sure the match will be later too'

sarkozy · 15-03-2012 12:32AM

Another reason is the a deep conservatism, strengthened by the power of the Catholic church even before independence. It was fine for an anti-British Catholicism to limit public outrage and political violence in the service of revolution, but that largely took place in the context of a deeply conservative Catholic moral framework. Post-independence, things turned inward where the obsession was with maintaining internal order - both political (the civil war) and moral (the Church regulating people's private lives). It was (and is) a world which casts radicals as outsiders.

I'd also add to this the manner in which Sinn Féin/Fianna Fáil consolidated power in this way which has led to a uniquely Irish populist form of politics which absorbs all opposition.

Another aspect is how land reform did not happen as promised leading to the replacement of one landed 'foreign' ruling class with a landed 'homegrown' ruling class.

I think if you read Diarmaid Ferriter's 'The Transformation of Ireland', you'll see precisely how the tumult of radical, progressive voices in Irish society were consistently shouted down and silenced since at least the late 19th century. It doesn't take a genius to surmise that things could have been a lot better in this country if those voices had been heeded.

Wider Road · 15-03-2012 01:20AM

munkifisht wrote: »

Up front I will admit that I am as guilty as anyone of what I am about to discuss,

We moan and moan in the pub about what's happened to us since the heady heights of the Celtic Tiger, and of course everyone is now an expert on promissory notes, income taxes, budgets, public service waste, what we should do next and when the property market is going to finally do what the titanic eventually did also and bottom out, but will we do anything about it, hell no. We voted for Fianna Mash-up (seriously, what's the flipping difference between FF or FG except for Cowen) or Labor a little over a year ago, and we will wait 4 more years until we can make another collective mistake. We lap up the propaganda shoveled down our throats by lazy journalists who are happy to garner the vast majority of the drivel they slop on paper via press conferences, and above all we are absolutely terrified of offending any multinational or government willing to make money off our back. We refuse to step out and stand up and let the policy makers and those in Europe know that we're not happy. How can we be like this when we, Hibernia, a tiny nation on a small rock in the Atlantic managed to stand up to our bully neighbor, the largest empire the world has ever known, for over 800 years.

As my old buddy Billy B Yeats said,
"Romantic Ireland's dead and gone--
It's with O'Leary in the grave"

Who moan and moan in the pub?
You said we moan, who is WE?
Please answer honestly, please.

Lantus · 15-03-2012 02:13AM

Firslty, all nations have at some point been invaded by others and England is no exception having seen a number of invaders over the last 2000 years.

Back on point.....

We live a world where we are kept busy and comfortable. The threat of losing our comfortable lifestyles is just too much for most people to contemplate. Fighting on a point of principle no matter how worthy is probably not worth winning if the prize is a loss of your standard of living, services and employment prospects.

In that sense most people are more than happy to moan in front of the tv.

Secondly the internet and other media gives people the opportunity to vent and feel that they are sharing a common issue without actually doing anything or meeting in person. For this reason the internet I think can actually have the effect of acting as a sort of safety valve where as previously people may of been inclined to march or physically protest. Most governments probably worry only about a sea of outrage on twitter and the possibility of a downed server but nothing much else.

By the time we've all spouted our anger into the ether were typically all tired and in need of a hot soak and some sky sports.

Lastly, even though we have a perverse 2 party system in which the 2 major parties simply take turns at being our rulers just like most other major western powers (in particular the US) we still believe we have a free and democratic society which I've always found odd.

Today they are so alike it's hard to tell them apart. It's a one party system in all but name. However, the illusion of choice ensures that no one ever feels oppressed or enprisoned by the society they live in. Democratic totalitarianism is a wonderful system that keeps otherwise intelligent creatures in a passive and restful state because they believe they are free. And who would want to rise up against freedom?

And there in lies a problem. Because we are laelled as a free and democratic society any advances or protests against it are more and more often becoming labelled as an attack against freedom itself. Giving governments far reaching powers to curb such protests and maintain 'order'. Worse still, the threat of terror encourages us to give up more freedoms so the state has even more power.

jimmycrackcorm · 15-03-2012 02:15AM

Just as much as our revolutionary history, we also have a history of being subservient to the Catholic church but in both cases are much the wiser now.

jimmycrackcorm · 15-03-2012 02:17AM

munkifisht wrote: »

I think the point is being missed here. Firstly we are talking about legitimate peaceful protest, not radical violent riots, secondly the point is not that we are too lazy to protest the EU, but that we are too lazy to protest anything, including corrupt politicians, giving away our natural resources, letting banks that we've bailed out to fire its staff and refuse to give its customers, and in a sense, owners, similar debt forgiveness for starters.

I'm so completely surprised at how like cattle being hearded to the abattoir we simply go with the flow without showing and signs of discontent. Is it so surprising then to see FF are deluded enough to host a back slapping conference while outside people are queuing to leave the country?

What did all the protests achieve for the Greeks?
There was no back-slapping at the FF Ard Fheis; Brian Cowen actually received applause for bravely showing his face in public.;)

Jorah · 15-03-2012 02:58AM

You guys should join the UK again and that way we can help rule Europe together.

We'd love to have you back.

MadsL · 15-03-2012 03:15AM

Interestingly enough the '800 years' cliche began with a King who spoke French.

sarumite · 15-03-2012 07:59AM

Jorah wrote: »

You guys should join the UK again and that way we can help rule Europe together.

We'd love to have you back.

Lol's. I don't see the advantage to either country if Ireland with its high unemployement and an unsustainable deficit rejoined the UK which also has high unemployment and an unsustainable deficit.

RichardAnd · 15-03-2012 09:18AM

I think alot of the apathy comes from the very "us and them" attitude that many people seem to display. Looking at some of the posts upon this forum, people are often very quick to draw a distinction between themselves and some perceived group.

The best example of this is how some posters regard public servants as a totally separate entity from the private sector workers of the state. Another may apply the same ideal to unemployed persons, farmers, taxi drivers or any other group with whom they take exception. This is a fallacy as for none of the above can truly be said that they are totally separate from everyone else because they are not. How many public servants are married to private sector workers? How many unemployed people have immediate family still working and again, how many farmers might have family employed by the sate?

In my own case, my mother is a civil servant, my father works for a private company, my brother is a student and I have friends that are unemployed. Should I apply the concept of separation to my own family? I think my point should be quite clear but what I'm saying is that with such a divided population, finding a common unity is extremely difficult.

The Occupy protesters demonstrated this very well because whilst many might have agreed with the general point that the system is rife with problems, they could not establish rapport because they perceived the said protesters as being too different from themselves. A fear of what is different perhaps?

But of course, the question arises; just what is the cause of this wickedly negative and self-defeating outlook? The natural answers might seem to be that our people were oppressed by the English and then the Church but I'm unsure if this is true. Perhaps the collective personality of this country has no palpable origin and maybe we simply are the way we are.

djpbarry · 15-03-2012 09:43AM

munkifisht wrote: »

We have a history of a nation that stood up to the English and their tyrannical rule constantly during their 800 year occupation of this country...

It’s difficult to take an argument seriously when it opens with this kind of clichéd nonsense.

munkifisht wrote: »

I think the point is being missed here. Firstly we are talking about legitimate peaceful protest, not radical violent riots, secondly the point is not that we are too lazy to protest the EU, but that we are too lazy to protest anything...

I’m pretty sure there have been numerous protests in Dublin over the last few years?

munkifisht wrote: »

I'm so completely surprised at how like cattle being hearded to the abattoir we simply go with the flow without showing and signs of discontent.

The abattoir being a metaphor for what exactly?

djpbarry · 15-03-2012 09:43AM

john reilly wrote: »

greece got a write dod the gwn of debt because the people anoverement rocked the boat. the irish people and goverment have again rolled over why would anybody give us a deal when are goverment proudly admitted it hasnt even asked.

What is this Irish obsession with wanting to be like Greece? You’re aware that Greece is utterly ****ed, yes?

djpbarry · 15-03-2012 09:43AM

Lantus wrote: »

It's a one party system in all but name.

When was the last time Ireland had a single-party government?

Lantus wrote: »

However, the illusion of choice ensures that no one ever feels oppressed or enprisoned by the society they live in. Democratic totalitarianism is a wonderful system that keeps otherwise intelligent creatures in a passive and restful state because they believe they are free. And who would want to rise up against freedom?

And there in lies a problem. Because we are laelled as a free and democratic society any advances or protests against it are more and more often becoming labelled as an attack against freedom itself. Giving governments far reaching powers to curb such protests and maintain 'order'.

You could wander down to Kildare St and time you like and protest against pretty much anything. I don’t think the same could be said of someone in Damascus or Moscow, for example.

Dubhlinner · 15-03-2012 10:44AM

We have a history of a nation that stood up to the English and their tyrannical rule constantly during their 800 year occupation of this country (no, they do not occupy the North any more, the majority in that area want a union - deal with democracy)

For the love of god. 800years is one hell of a long time. Cultures change back and forth many a time over that kind of period.

Even going back as far as 1798 is a huge amount of time - between now and then there's been just as much time of content with British rule than rebellion against it.

Why no real revolution against the bailouts/austerity etc? If a revolutionary force was to take over a la the Cuban revolution then there would have to be concrete change. The political system would have to be replaced with something based on socialism/communism.

That would go down like a lead balloon in Ireland. Land ownership is extremely important to people. Particularly farmers. and most people in the cities have relatives who are farmers. They would win the war of hearts and minds and we'd be back to square one in no time.

tbh · 15-03-2012 01:19PM

I think the assumption that the OPs of threads like these make is that everyone in the country feels the same way about things as they do.

From my point of view, I appreciate the country is fckd, I understand why it's fcked, I understand what has to be done to unfck it and I broadly agree with the action the government has to take, even if it's hitting me hard in the pocket and I don't like it. That's why I'm not protesting.

The reason I don't go around telling people this all the time is because I'm sick of the same people who told me I was an idiot for not voting FF during the tiger now calling me a sheep for doing what I think needs to be done to get the country out of the mess it's in - i.e. not protesting, not striking and paying my fcking household charge.

Jorah · 15-03-2012 02:37PM

sarumite wrote: »

Lol's. I don't see the advantage to either country if Ireland with its high unemployement and an unsustainable deficit rejoined the UK which also has high unemployment and an unsustainable deficit.

We could be highly unemployed and unsustainably debt ridden together.

bullpost · 15-03-2012 02:53PM

Nah - way too simplistic.
Doesnt explain the thousands who fought and died in the World wars. Doesn't explain the fact that in the US the medals of honour awarded to foreigners is lead by the Irish.

munkifisht wrote: »

But I do have a theory, and I don't think it is all due to apathy. I think that despite the rhetoric that is spouted about the damn good trashing we gave em black n tans, how we all boisterously roar rebel songs in drunken hazes, and how we all had a Granddad who fought in the rising, the truth then is the same as it is now. We are a nation that was historically beaten down on two fronts, firstly by the churches ultra conservatism and secondly by the Brits second class citizen in our own country attitude. I don't think I'm wrong in saying this, but the vast majority of Irish people have never wanted to rise up and fight, it has always been a minority who have been looked on unfavorably by the majority around them as trouble makers and upstarts.

As my old buddy Billy B Yeats said,
"Romantic Ireland's dead and gone--
It's with O'Leary in the grave"

later12 · 15-03-2012 03:15PM

Ireland's history is that of a nation of idealists who do not allow their ideals to get in the way of their anticipated progress.

I don't know where the OP is getting this "history of defiance and revolution" from. As others have suggested, all insurrections - certainly all of those since the industrial revolution - have been small scale, splinter groups whose sentiments might sometimes have enjoyed public popularity, but did not enjoy such popularity in terms of men committing themselves and their arms to any such cause.

Nowhere was this more true than the 1916 rising when the men were hissed and spat at going into Kilmainham, and woefully mourned when they came out and British lead had rendered them useless, and quite dead.

We were always the nation of peasant famers and poets who flirted valiantly with the idea of a revolution never realized.
If anything, our role tended to be passive: hiding men on the run, concealing disaffection, and an almost sarcastic acceptance of the 'national hierarchy', be that in the form of religious institutions, feudalism, landlordism and the role of the Anglo Irish, particularly in administrative affairs. I say sarcastic because they seem to have often been mocked and lampooned, but never quite taken on in an aggressive way which challenged their authority.

A similar passivity does remain today. Most likely, such submission is an economic asset. But it does exist, and it is rather curious, but it is not without precedent.

golfball37 · 15-03-2012 03:16PM

bullpost wrote: »

Nah - way too simplistic.
Doesnt explain the thousands who fought and died in the World wars. Doesn't explain the fact that in the US the medals of honour awarded to foreigners is lead by the Irish.

Acually it does. It shows they'd fight for another country at the drop of a hat but not their own.

I'm not diminishing their personal sacrifice I'm just saying they wouldn't have done the same for Ireland imo, which ties in with the OP argument.

bullpost · 15-03-2012 04:35PM

A lot of them did hope their fight would benefit this country - particularly in the first world war.

golfball37 wrote: »

Acually it does. It shows they'd fight for another country at the drop of a hat but not their own.

I'm not diminishing their personal sacrifice I'm just saying they wouldn't have done the same for Ireland imo, which ties in with the OP argument.

Considering our history of defiance and revolution, why are we now so apathetic?

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