Considering our history of defiance and revolution, why are we now so apathetic?

munkifisht

Up front I will admit that I am as guilty as anyone of what I am about to discuss, and in writing this perhaps even more so, but I am keen to hear other peoples views and theories.

We have a history of a nation that stood up to the English and their tyrannical rule constantly during their 800 year occupation of this country (no, they do not occupy the North any more, the majority in that area want a union - deal with democracy), but today, as the rest of Europe rises up to defy unjust austerity measures we in Ireland are happy to let that suppurating little worm Edna to go cap in hand to the EU to beg for a token respite in the from of a longer period of time to repay the so-called promissory notes and we as a people are quite happy to let this type of thing go on. Hearing his pathetic whinge to our Kaiser overlords on the radio today reminded me of Oliver Twists "Please sir, can I have some more" line. As a people, we have no concept of people power. None. And this when you consider the year that has just gone where two tyrannical regimes in the middle east have toppled due in no small part to the power of social media, and over the past week and a bit Joseph Kony has been transformed into one of the most famous men in the world due to YouTube.

What is even more surprising is that when people do try and stand up (or sit down in the case of the occupy movement) the general consensus seems to be "bloody wasters, why do they get a job and re stimulate the economy, don't they see that newsagents over there is loosing money". Not only do we have no time to protest ourselves, but we will expend energy in lambasting those who at least try to make a difference (I will say here I do think the ODS movement did have some success in that a handful of people were able to make national headlines to highlight an arguably just cause).

We moan and moan in the pub about what's happened to us since the heady heights of the Celtic Tiger, and of course everyone is now an expert on promissory notes, income taxes, budgets, public service waste, what we should do next and when the property market is going to finally do what the titanic eventually did also and bottom out, but will we do anything about it, hell no. We voted for Fianna Mash-up (seriously, what's the flipping difference between FF or FG except for Cowen) or Labor a little over a year ago, and we will wait 4 more years until we can make another collective mistake. We lap up the propaganda shoveled down our throats by lazy journalists who are happy to garner the vast majority of the drivel they slop on paper via press conferences, and above all we are absolutely terrified of offending any multinational or government willing to make money off our back. We refuse to step out and stand up and let the policy makers and those in Europe know that we're not happy. How can we be like this when we, Hibernia, a tiny nation on a small rock in the Atlantic managed to stand up to our bully neighbor, the largest empire the world has ever known, for over 800 years.

But I do have a theory, and I don't think it is all due to apathy. I think that despite the rhetoric that is spouted about the damn good trashing we gave em black n tans, how we all boisterously roar rebel songs in drunken hazes, and how we all had a Granddad who fought in the rising, the truth then is the same as it is now. We are a nation that was historically beaten down on two fronts, firstly by the churches ultra conservatism and secondly by the Brits second class citizen in our own country attitude. I don't think I'm wrong in saying this, but the vast majority of Irish people have never wanted to rise up and fight, it has always been a minority who have been looked on unfavorably by the majority around them as trouble makers and upstarts.

It is that molding of our national identity that has led us today to whispering of conspiracy while we sip our over priced pints, all of us sure that what is happening to us is patently unjust, but who are at a base level whimpering cowards who are terrified that anyone who speaks out will suffer the wrath of the EMFs cane. We have been bred into a country of people scared to challenge any authority. Indeed we mock those who even try to do it.

As my old buddy Billy B Yeats said,
"Romantic Ireland's dead and gone--
It's with O'Leary in the grave"

Amirani

I don't think our collective population ever took a considered stance against the English occupation of the island. It was always small, guerrilla type groups that aspired to any sort of defiance and revolution. The 1916 rising itself was quite unpopular. Public opinion only swung in favour of the rebels after their execution.

Also, I don't think any show of defiance is going to improve our current situation and most people realise this. They just get on with it.

woodoo

We allowed ourselves to be treated very badly by the British and we basically turned away from our own language. I don't think we were ever really defiant. We turned on each other if anything.

munkifisht

NiallSparky wrote: »

I don't think our collective population ever took a considered stance against the English occupation of the island. It was always small, guerrilla type groups that aspired to any sort of defiance and revolution. The 1916 rising itself was quite unpopular. Public opinion only swung in favour of the rebels after their execution.

Well exactly. Since the fall of the O'Neills and the flight of the Earls in 1607 this country hasn't been unified under a banner of defiance for any cause (except of course under the banner of Daz for Whiter Whites).

NiallSparky wrote: »

Also, I don't think any show of defiance is going to improve our current situation and most people realise this. They just get on with it.

Does this not exactly prove that point?

rasper

We have and seemingly always will be under one jackboot or another be it British , roman or euro

Sunnyisland

I would be thinking the reason maybe that after 30 odd years of troubles/war/rebellion etc in the north of Ireland that a lot of people old enough to remember it and others been told so much about it,That the idea of violence happening on our cities and towns is a bit to much to fathom,For the most part we are all enjoying our peaceful freedoms & wouldn't have the stomach for it.imo of course.

john reilly

realistically we have by of deband large rolled over for anybody who wanted to run the country and those who rebelled were despised for rocking the boat. greece got a write dod the gwn of debt because the people anoverement rocked the boat. the irish people and goverment have again rolled over why would anybody give us a deal when are goverment proudly admitted it hasnt even asked.

JoeGil

What is there to stand up against?
Ireland voted to join the EU in 1973. Since then we received billions of EU subsidies to convert from a a backward agrarian society to a modern economy. Now that the FF governement and bankers spent a decade wrecking the country Europe has had to come back in and save the day again.

Amirani

john reilly wrote: »

realistically we have by of deband large rolled over for anybody who wanted to run the country and those who rebelled were despised for rocking the boat. greece got a write dod the gwn of debt because the people anoverement rocked the boat. the irish people and goverment have again rolled over why would anybody give us a deal when are goverment proudly admitted it hasnt even asked.

Greece didn't get a write-down on their debt because people were rioting in Athens. The write-down was allowed purely to stabilise a crumbling Eurozone and thus protect the larger economies against the repercussions of Greek bankruptcy.

munkifisht

JoeGil wrote: »

What is there to stand up against?
Ireland voted to join the EU in 1973. Since then we received billions of EU subsidies to convert from a a backward agrarian society to a modern economy. Now that the FF governement and bankers spent a decade wrecking the country Europe has had to come back in and save the day again.

I think the point is being missed here. Firstly we are talking about legitimate peaceful protest, not radical violent riots, secondly the point is not that we are too lazy to protest the EU, but that we are too lazy to protest anything, including corrupt politicians, giving away our natural resources, letting banks that we've bailed out to fire its staff and refuse to give its customers, and in a sense, owners, similar debt forgiveness for starters.

I'm so completely surprised at how like cattle being hearded to the abattoir we simply go with the flow without showing and signs of discontent. Is it so surprising then to see FF are deluded enough to host a back slapping conference while outside people are queuing to leave the country?

K-9

We have a history of generally peaceful protest since the state was founded, farmers, PAYE workers in the 80's, pensioners a couple of years ago etc. We don't have a violent history like Greece, the French farmers etc.

Jaafa

I think the weather is a factor.

'Hey John will we go start a riot later on''?

'I dunno Brian, heard there's gona be rain'

'Ah suppose, sure the match will be later too'

sarkozy

Another reason is the a deep conservatism, strengthened by the power of the Catholic church even before independence. It was fine for an anti-British Catholicism to limit public outrage and political violence in the service of revolution, but that largely took place in the context of a deeply conservative Catholic moral framework. Post-independence, things turned inward where the obsession was with maintaining internal order - both political (the civil war) and moral (the Church regulating people's private lives). It was (and is) a world which casts radicals as outsiders.

I'd also add to this the manner in which Sinn Féin/Fianna Fáil consolidated power in this way which has led to a uniquely Irish populist form of politics which absorbs all opposition.

Another aspect is how land reform did not happen as promised leading to the replacement of one landed 'foreign' ruling class with a landed 'homegrown' ruling class.

I think if you read Diarmaid Ferriter's 'The Transformation of Ireland', you'll see precisely how the tumult of radical, progressive voices in Irish society were consistently shouted down and silenced since at least the late 19th century. It doesn't take a genius to surmise that things could have been a lot better in this country if those voices had been heeded.

Wider Road

munkifisht wrote: »

Up front I will admit that I am as guilty as anyone of what I am about to discuss,

We moan and moan in the pub about what's happened to us since the heady heights of the Celtic Tiger, and of course everyone is now an expert on promissory notes, income taxes, budgets, public service waste, what we should do next and when the property market is going to finally do what the titanic eventually did also and bottom out, but will we do anything about it, hell no. We voted for Fianna Mash-up (seriously, what's the flipping difference between FF or FG except for Cowen) or Labor a little over a year ago, and we will wait 4 more years until we can make another collective mistake. We lap up the propaganda shoveled down our throats by lazy journalists who are happy to garner the vast majority of the drivel they slop on paper via press conferences, and above all we are absolutely terrified of offending any multinational or government willing to make money off our back. We refuse to step out and stand up and let the policy makers and those in Europe know that we're not happy. How can we be like this when we, Hibernia, a tiny nation on a small rock in the Atlantic managed to stand up to our bully neighbor, the largest empire the world has ever known, for over 800 years.

As my old buddy Billy B Yeats said,
"Romantic Ireland's dead and gone--
It's with O'Leary in the grave"

Who moan and moan in the pub?
You said we moan, who is WE?
Please answer honestly, please.

Lantus

Firslty, all nations have at some point been invaded by others and England is no exception having seen a number of invaders over the last 2000 years.

Back on point.....

We live a world where we are kept busy and comfortable. The threat of losing our comfortable lifestyles is just too much for most people to contemplate. Fighting on a point of principle no matter how worthy is probably not worth winning if the prize is a loss of your standard of living, services and employment prospects.

In that sense most people are more than happy to moan in front of the tv.

Secondly the internet and other media gives people the opportunity to vent and feel that they are sharing a common issue without actually doing anything or meeting in person. For this reason the internet I think can actually have the effect of acting as a sort of safety valve where as previously people may of been inclined to march or physically protest. Most governments probably worry only about a sea of outrage on twitter and the possibility of a downed server but nothing much else.

By the time we've all spouted our anger into the ether were typically all tired and in need of a hot soak and some sky sports.

Lastly, even though we have a perverse 2 party system in which the 2 major parties simply take turns at being our rulers just like most other major western powers (in particular the US) we still believe we have a free and democratic society which I've always found odd.

Today they are so alike it's hard to tell them apart. It's a one party system in all but name. However, the illusion of choice ensures that no one ever feels oppressed or enprisoned by the society they live in. Democratic totalitarianism is a wonderful system that keeps otherwise intelligent creatures in a passive and restful state because they believe they are free. And who would want to rise up against freedom?

And there in lies a problem. Because we are laelled as a free and democratic society any advances or protests against it are more and more often becoming labelled as an attack against freedom itself. Giving governments far reaching powers to curb such protests and maintain 'order'. Worse still, the threat of terror encourages us to give up more freedoms so the state has even more power.

jimmycrackcorm

Just as much as our revolutionary history, we also have a history of being subservient to the Catholic church but in both cases are much the wiser now.

jimmycrackcorm

munkifisht wrote: »

I think the point is being missed here. Firstly we are talking about legitimate peaceful protest, not radical violent riots, secondly the point is not that we are too lazy to protest the EU, but that we are too lazy to protest anything, including corrupt politicians, giving away our natural resources, letting banks that we've bailed out to fire its staff and refuse to give its customers, and in a sense, owners, similar debt forgiveness for starters.

I'm so completely surprised at how like cattle being hearded to the abattoir we simply go with the flow without showing and signs of discontent. Is it so surprising then to see FF are deluded enough to host a back slapping conference while outside people are queuing to leave the country?

What did all the protests achieve for the Greeks?
There was no back-slapping at the FF Ard Fheis; Brian Cowen actually received applause for bravely showing his face in public.;)

Jorah

You guys should join the UK again and that way we can help rule Europe together.


We'd love to have you back.

MadsL

Interestingly enough the '800 years' cliche began with a King who spoke French.

sarumite

Jorah wrote: »

You guys should join the UK again and that way we can help rule Europe together.


We'd love to have you back.

Lol's. I don't see the advantage to either country if Ireland with its high unemployement and an unsustainable deficit rejoined the UK which also has high unemployment and an unsustainable deficit.

RichardAnd

I think alot of the apathy comes from the very "us and them" attitude that many people seem to display. Looking at some of the posts upon this forum, people are often very quick to draw a distinction between themselves and some perceived group.

The best example of this is how some posters regard public servants as a totally separate entity from the private sector workers of the state. Another may apply the same ideal to unemployed persons, farmers, taxi drivers or any other group with whom they take exception. This is a fallacy as for none of the above can truly be said that they are totally separate from everyone else because they are not. How many public servants are married to private sector workers? How many unemployed people have immediate family still working and again, how many farmers might have family employed by the sate?

In my own case, my mother is a civil servant, my father works for a private company, my brother is a student and I have friends that are unemployed. Should I apply the concept of separation to my own family? I think my point should be quite clear but what I'm saying is that with such a divided population, finding a common unity is extremely difficult.

The Occupy protesters demonstrated this very well because whilst many might have agreed with the general point that the system is rife with problems, they could not establish rapport because they perceived the said protesters as being too different from themselves. A fear of what is different perhaps?

But of course, the question arises; just what is the cause of this wickedly negative and self-defeating outlook? The natural answers might seem to be that our people were oppressed by the English and then the Church but I'm unsure if this is true. Perhaps the collective personality of this country has no palpable origin and maybe we simply are the way we are.

djpbarry

munkifisht wrote: »

We have a history of a nation that stood up to the English and their tyrannical rule constantly during their 800 year occupation of this country...

It’s difficult to take an argument seriously when it opens with this kind of clichéd nonsense.

munkifisht wrote: »

I think the point is being missed here. Firstly we are talking about legitimate peaceful protest, not radical violent riots, secondly the point is not that we are too lazy to protest the EU, but that we are too lazy to protest anything...

I’m pretty sure there have been numerous protests in Dublin over the last few years?

munkifisht wrote: »

I'm so completely surprised at how like cattle being hearded to the abattoir we simply go with the flow without showing and signs of discontent.

The abattoir being a metaphor for what exactly?

djpbarry

john reilly wrote: »

greece got a write dod the gwn of debt because the people anoverement rocked the boat. the irish people and goverment have again rolled over why would anybody give us a deal when are goverment proudly admitted it hasnt even asked.

What is this Irish obsession with wanting to be like Greece? You’re aware that Greece is utterly ****ed, yes?

djpbarry

Lantus wrote: »

It's a one party system in all but name.

When was the last time Ireland had a single-party government?

Lantus wrote: »

However, the illusion of choice ensures that no one ever feels oppressed or enprisoned by the society they live in. Democratic totalitarianism is a wonderful system that keeps otherwise intelligent creatures in a passive and restful state because they believe they are free. And who would want to rise up against freedom?

And there in lies a problem. Because we are laelled as a free and democratic society any advances or protests against it are more and more often becoming labelled as an attack against freedom itself. Giving governments far reaching powers to curb such protests and maintain 'order'.

You could wander down to Kildare St and time you like and protest against pretty much anything. I don’t think the same could be said of someone in Damascus or Moscow, for example.

Dubhlinner

We have a history of a nation that stood up to the English and their tyrannical rule constantly during their 800 year occupation of this country (no, they do not occupy the North any more, the majority in that area want a union - deal with democracy)

For the love of god. 800years is one hell of a long time. Cultures change back and forth many a time over that kind of period.

Even going back as far as 1798 is a huge amount of time - between now and then there's been just as much time of content with British rule than rebellion against it.

Why no real revolution against the bailouts/austerity etc? If a revolutionary force was to take over a la the Cuban revolution then there would have to be concrete change. The political system would have to be replaced with something based on socialism/communism.

That would go down like a lead balloon in Ireland. Land ownership is extremely important to people. Particularly farmers. and most people in the cities have relatives who are farmers. They would win the war of hearts and minds and we'd be back to square one in no time.

tbh

I think the assumption that the OPs of threads like these make is that everyone in the country feels the same way about things as they do.

From my point of view, I appreciate the country is fckd, I understand why it's fcked, I understand what has to be done to unfck it and I broadly agree with the action the government has to take, even if it's hitting me hard in the pocket and I don't like it. That's why I'm not protesting.

The reason I don't go around telling people this all the time is because I'm sick of the same people who told me I was an idiot for not voting FF during the tiger now calling me a sheep for doing what I think needs to be done to get the country out of the mess it's in - i.e. not protesting, not striking and paying my fcking household charge.

Jorah

sarumite wrote: »

Lol's. I don't see the advantage to either country if Ireland with its high unemployement and an unsustainable deficit rejoined the UK which also has high unemployment and an unsustainable deficit.

We could be highly unemployed and unsustainably debt ridden together.

bullpost

Nah - way too simplistic.
Doesnt explain the thousands who fought and died in the World wars. Doesn't explain the fact that in the US the medals of honour awarded to foreigners is lead by the Irish.

munkifisht wrote: »

But I do have a theory, and I don't think it is all due to apathy. I think that despite the rhetoric that is spouted about the damn good trashing we gave em black n tans, how we all boisterously roar rebel songs in drunken hazes, and how we all had a Granddad who fought in the rising, the truth then is the same as it is now. We are a nation that was historically beaten down on two fronts, firstly by the churches ultra conservatism and secondly by the Brits second class citizen in our own country attitude. I don't think I'm wrong in saying this, but the vast majority of Irish people have never wanted to rise up and fight, it has always been a minority who have been looked on unfavorably by the majority around them as trouble makers and upstarts.



As my old buddy Billy B Yeats said,
"Romantic Ireland's dead and gone--
It's with O'Leary in the grave"

later12

Ireland's history is that of a nation of idealists who do not allow their ideals to get in the way of their anticipated progress.

I don't know where the OP is getting this "history of defiance and revolution" from. As others have suggested, all insurrections - certainly all of those since the industrial revolution - have been small scale, splinter groups whose sentiments might sometimes have enjoyed public popularity, but did not enjoy such popularity in terms of men committing themselves and their arms to any such cause.

Nowhere was this more true than the 1916 rising when the men were hissed and spat at going into Kilmainham, and woefully mourned when they came out and British lead had rendered them useless, and quite dead.

We were always the nation of peasant famers and poets who flirted valiantly with the idea of a revolution never realized.
If anything, our role tended to be passive: hiding men on the run, concealing disaffection, and an almost sarcastic acceptance of the 'national hierarchy', be that in the form of religious institutions, feudalism, landlordism and the role of the Anglo Irish, particularly in administrative affairs. I say sarcastic because they seem to have often been mocked and lampooned, but never quite taken on in an aggressive way which challenged their authority.

A similar passivity does remain today. Most likely, such submission is an economic asset. But it does exist, and it is rather curious, but it is not without precedent.

golfball37

bullpost wrote: »

Nah - way too simplistic.
Doesnt explain the thousands who fought and died in the World wars. Doesn't explain the fact that in the US the medals of honour awarded to foreigners is lead by the Irish.

Acually it does. It shows they'd fight for another country at the drop of a hat but not their own.

I'm not diminishing their personal sacrifice I'm just saying they wouldn't have done the same for Ireland imo, which ties in with the OP argument.

bullpost

A lot of them did hope their fight would benefit this country - particularly in the first world war.

golfball37 wrote: »

Acually it does. It shows they'd fight for another country at the drop of a hat but not their own.

I'm not diminishing their personal sacrifice I'm just saying they wouldn't have done the same for Ireland imo, which ties in with the OP argument.

RichardAnd

golfball37 wrote: »

Acually it does. It shows they'd fight for another country at the drop of a hat but not their own.

Alot of Irish men that fought in the wars did so to earn money.

Dirk Gently

I think a few people have already pointed it out but we most certainly do not have a history of defiance and revolution. Ireland has always been a rather conservative place. People accepted poverty and emigration as a way of life and rarely done anything about it. As was pointed out, any "revolution" in this country has always been a tiny band of people with little or no popular support, save for the aftermath of 1916 when people only really reacted against the harsh treatment of the prisoners, whom they didn't support at the time of the rising. Even our eventual Irish state was possible the most conservative revolution ever had, i.e it was not at all revolutionary and infact was a very repressive regime which the population accepted. We accepted a virtual theocracy, that was our "great revolution".

It's not why now are we so apathetic, the answer is we always have been. Why? I don't know, serious lack of education through out our history maybe, even after our independent state was formed it was a conservative catholic education we got. Not exactly useful or productive or inspiring but it was very much in keeping the theme of control and sacrifice and be damned anyone who thinks differently.

In short, for the most part, we're a nation of followers, not independent thinkers.

KeithAFC

I think it is a bit of a myth about revolution on the island of Ireland. Never has a rebellion had any large support. And most of the fighting stems from one province anyway.

Tazz T

djpbarry wrote: »

What is this Irish obsession with wanting to be like Greece? You’re aware that Greece is utterly ****ed, yes?

And we're not?

I sincerely hope you can still say that in five years. Because I'll believe Greece will be out of the euro, back in a devalued drachma with a newly burgeoning economy, having not paid back a cent while we'll have unemployment above 20%, taxed to starvation and with no end in sight.

djpbarry

Tazz T wrote: »

And we're not?

Relative to Greece, Ireland is a virtual utopia.

Tazz T wrote: »

I sincerely hope you can still say that in five years. Because I'll believe Greece will be out of the euro, back in a devalued drachma with a newly burgeoning economy, having not paid back a cent while we'll have unemployment above 20%, taxed to starvation and with no end in sight.

I'll take that bet.

The Waltzing Consumer

Tazz T wrote: »

And we're not?

I sincerely hope you can still say that in five years. Because I'll believe Greece will be out of the euro, back in a devalued drachma with a newly burgeoning economy, having not paid back a cent while we'll have unemployment above 20%, taxed to starvation and with no end in sight.

eh no, no we are not. We are really nothing like Greece.

What are you basing this five year prediction on? The economy is more stable now then it was 2008/09 so where is this fear mongering coming from?

munkifisht

later12 wrote: »

I don't know where the OP is getting this "history of defiance and revolution" from. As others have suggested, all insurrections - certainly all of those since the industrial revolution - have been small scale, splinter groups whose sentiments might sometimes have enjoyed public popularity, but did not enjoy such popularity in terms of men committing themselves and their arms to any such cause.

Thanks, exactly the point I was making in the opening post. Quoting myself

"I don't think I'm wrong in saying this, but the vast majority of Irish people have never wanted to rise up and fight, it has always been a minority who have been looked on unfavorably by the majority around them as trouble makers and upstarts."

as well as the quote from Sept 1913 by WB. Some others have made the same point, so I can only guess that got lost somewhere in my overly verbose writing.

@tbh, re what I feel and what others feel, that is really not what I am talking about. What I am doing is looking into Europe and around the rest of the World where there seems to be a more active participation (rightly or wrongly) of the citizens of nations in trying to steer the course of those nations, while in this country we will tolerate the kind of paddy whackery of giving away for free 3,514 barrels of oil a day when the world is on the verge of a massive energy crisis, of as I say, allowing banks to screw their customers into the ground who are paying them twice, once for the mortgage they can no longer afford, and once for the bail out, taking blindly the words of our seemingly inept leaders that we must pay back the bond holders without question and follow all the rules laid down by the Troika without ever asking for any kind of renegotiation on what was a very very bad deal for us.

Now maybe you agree or maybe you disagree, but I am sure that there is a large proportion of this island (maybe 1:4 at an uber conservative estimate) who would at least subscribe to one of these ideas or some other fairly substantial gripe that I have not listed, but the thought of getting out there and holding a banner in front of Leinster house is not only not being done by anyone.

WE have protested somewhat, and there have been some small marches. but when you compare us to what has gone on around the world, in the UK, the US, Iceland, Greece, Spain, France (who would protest if the price of Petti Folous went up a cent), Germany etc while here there doesn't seem to be any urge to make any kind of protest. We seem meek and uninterested in what is happening to us. I know I'm wrong, but that's the way things appear.

Not that not protesting or being otherwise politically active is not really the worst crime in the world, people are busy, everyone who is still working is probably working harder these days for less money (I know that I am), and people have families and so on and so forth. Not everyone can afford to protest, not everyone wants to protest, but something we do all seem to want to do is have a good ol moan about it all (pretty much like I'm am).

You can imagine the same being true in 1915 with people grumbling about the Act of Union and the delay on the establishment of Home Rule but with few people ready to stand up and do anything about it (I am NOT advocating revolution here -REPEAT - NOT advocating revolution - it is simply a metaphor). But when those people do stand up, a good proportion are not only unsupportive, but hostile to the rebels.

This is what is enraging about the Irish attitude. Even when people do try and protest and will get out there and try and make some kind of a mark to say No, we are not happy, No, we do not forgive you for the incompetent mistakes you made and the corruption you still display today, No, we do not think we should bail out banks that sold billions in bonds to foreign parties in the boom years, No, we do not think that all the money generated from the Austerity measures introduced should go to bond holders, No, we do not want to give away our oil for free, that even when this happens those people are looked on with such disdain and mockery.

Anyway, gone way off topic. I think there was the really interesting point raised first by sarkozy and then by RichardAnd about the Us and Them idea. Its a really interesting concept and I really that has a contributing factor. I suppose you could say that would go all the way back to out clan heritage, and this might then have bee perpetuated when we were part of Britain during the plantations.

The Waltzing Consumer

munkifisht wrote: »

while in this country we will tolerate the kind of paddy whackery of giving away for free 3,514 barrels of oil a day when the world is on the verge of a massive energy crisis

What?

We have oil now?

munkifisht

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

What?

We have oil now?

Yep, in Cork. Well, you say WE you mean Providence Resources. WE have no oil and will never make a brass penny out of it.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/oil-in-irish-waters-cork-well-raises-3514-barrels-a-day-3051267.html

The Waltzing Consumer

munkifisht wrote: »

Yep, in Cork. Well, you say WE you mean Providence Resources. WE have no oil and will never make a brass penny out of it.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/oil-in-irish-waters-cork-well-raises-3514-barrels-a-day-3051267.html

So in other words, what you said is not true. The country is not giving away thousands of barrels of oil a day for free. That was a lie no?

munkifisht

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

So in other words, what you said is not true. The country is not giving away thousands of barrels of oil a day for free. That was a lie no?

No. That was a truth yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76VOnzXQMsU&feature=player_embedded

The Waltzing Consumer

munkifisht wrote: »

No. That was a truth yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76VOnzXQMsU&feature=player_embedded

A youtube video does not make it true.

You made a statement saying we give thousands of barrells of oil away every day for free. Now from the Independent article, it seems to say that a company that have a licence struck oil. Can you confirm if that is accurate? Can you also tell me how many days we have been giving away this oil?

Do you think all the fish in the Irish sea belong to the Government, do you get annoyed at fishermen who take fish? Are they stealing from the state?

munkifisht

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

A youtube video does not make it true.

You made a statement saying we give thousands of barrells of oil away every day for free. Now from the Independent article, it seems to say that a company that have a licence struck oil. Can you confirm if that is accurate? Can you also tell me how many days we have been giving away this oil?

Do you think all the fish in the Irish sea belong to the Government, do you get annoyed at fishermen who take fish? Are they stealing from the state?

No, the truth makes it true. The fact it's a fact makes it true. Surely you are not that ignorant, but lets for the sake of argument say you are.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/right-man-for-change-in-energy-tax-policy-1048797.html

But yes, you are right, we don't own all the fish in the sea, that belongs to the Spanish fishermen, but why stop there. What about our land, surely the people don't have a right to claim soil that came from the Iberian peninsula originally, Spain owns the land too, so you are spot on. The oil surely doesn't belong to the people. Why should we potato munching bog hoppers be entitled to a cent from the potential billions under our feet. It's not like we need it or anything. I mean, no other country has had any benefit from their luck of their homelands geography. You, you've convinced me, we don't deserve the oil, we should let whatever polluting bstrds who want to drill our coast lines like Swiss cheese and lay ruin to fossil coral beds do whatever the hell they like for free.

The Waltzing Consumer

munkifisht wrote: »

No, the truth makes it true. The fact it's a fact makes it true. Surely you are not that ignorant, but lets for the sake of argument say you are.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/right-man-for-change-in-energy-tax-policy-1048797.html

But yes, you are right, we don't own all the fish in the sea, that belongs to the Spanish fishermen, but why stop there. What about our land, surely the people don't have a right to claim soil that came from the Iberian peninsula originally, Spain owns the land too, so you are spot on. The oil surely doesn't belong to the people. Why should we potato munching bog hoppers be entitled to a cent from the potential billions under our feet. It's not like we need it or anything. I mean, no other country has had any benefit from their luck of their homelands geography. You, you've convinced me, we don't deserve the oil, we should let whatever polluting bstrds who want to drill our coast lines like Swiss cheese and lay ruin to fossil coral beds do whatever the hell they like for free.

Sorry, this is confusing. You made the claim:

"while in this country we will tolerate the kind of paddy whackery of giving away for free 3,514 barrels of oil a day "

Now please quote in the Independent article where it says the Government is giving away oil? This forum has standards, if you are going to make a claim, back it up. All I can read from that article is that a company which has a legal agreement with the Government, found amounts of oil, it does not mention them stealing oil, it does not mention them selling oil, it does not mention the government giving away this oil for free, so please, for the love of god, show me where this is?

As for the rant, seriously, standards, that does not match them so would not bother to think of any reply to that.

munkifisht

I do enjoy a good rant

Anyway, the article there is a buisness article and is only reporting that oil has been found. As any 8 year old knows, FF gave away for free any exploration rights to oil and gas in this country in the 80s. One of the last act they did in government was to give away billions of euros worth of exploration licences. One when to this company. If the company today decide they want to develop this field (they will, oil prices are heading in one direction and the price/l is expected to top €2 before the end of this year) they are only required to pay a piffy 20% on any net profit they make, that is net profit mind, so there is almost 0 risk. I suppose an analogy could be made here with the bondholders. The logic behind this move was that our oil and gas fields were so pathetic that no one would develop them without this kind of incentive. The truth as we now know is quite different.

Amtmann

What is this 'we' about? Do you think we're like a nest of ants, all of the same mindset? The use of 'we' as a catch-all term is laughably simplistic.

john reilly

djpbarry wrote: »

What is this Irish obsession with wanting to be like Greece? You’re aware that Greece is utterly ****ed, yes?

and yet in five years time they will probably be better off than us. but enda isnt going to let his pals in the e.c.b down. no he would rather lie to the irish people to get elected and then let them down. when are the people who are elected by the irish people going to start standing up for the irish people

munkifisht

Amtmann wrote: »

What is this 'we' about? Do you think we're like a nest of ants, all of the same mindset? The use of 'we' as a catch-all term is laughably simplistic.

We in terms of a nation or as a society. It's a generilisation but I thought it would take too long to list everyone by name

Amtmann

munkifisht wrote: »

We in terms of a nation or as a society. It's a generilisation but I thought it would take too long to list everyone by name

As a generalisation it fails.

munkifisht

Amtmann wrote: »

As a generalisation it fails.

Can I take it then that you disagree and believe that there is a significant proportion that are politically active? If so could you expand that point?