Thieving backstards (Thieves, and the bank!)

dlofnep · 14-03-2012 02:06PM #1

So my brother's debit card was compromised, and some thief stole 2 grand from his account, spending it on betting websites and plain tickets, etc.

My brother lodged a dispute with the bank - but they are refusing to refund it, because the thief had somehow worked out the pin. Now my brother is oblivious as to how - but you know in these days and ages, with social engineering and phishing scams - anything is possible.

So now my brother is 2 grand short, and some spud-picking thief has got away scot-free with two grand. This is not even my money and I'm furious! The cheek of the bank to charge my brother for the acts of thieves. My brother works long and hard hours, doing two jobs. He doesn't deserve some thieving scumbag to take all of his hard earned dough.

And their reasoning for not refunding it cited (without even knowing how the thief obtained it) - that the pin was not kept safe. Banks, thieves... In cahoots - robbing the working man of all his money in anyway they can

Swampy · 14-03-2012 02:07PM

Plane ticket to cheltnham. Nice.

dlofnep · 14-03-2012 02:10PM

I looked at his account, and it looks like the first transaction occurred after my brother used an ATM - so they could have carded him. I wonder if the pin used on the ATM's are the same as the pins used for the online VISA transactions by default?

Sofaspud · 14-03-2012 02:10PM

He used it to buy plane tickets? That leaves a pretty obvious paper trail to find his identity then . . .

ScouseMouse · 14-03-2012 02:11PM

Can you not cancel the tickets as fraud?

forfuxsake · 14-03-2012 02:12PM

Are you sure he isn't trying to hide a gambling problem. It makes absolutely no sense for a thief to use his card to gamble online, any winnings would go to your brother and therefore it wouldn't be gambling. Secondly, if a person got 'plain' tickets then it is very easy to find their name and passport number and arrest them.

he needs this
http://www.gamblersanonymous.ie/gamanon/gam_anon_20_questions.html

dlofnep · 14-03-2012 02:12PM

Sofaspud wrote: »

He used it to buy plane tickets? That leaves a pretty obvious paper trail to find his identity then . . .

Yeah - and I suppose their IP address(s) from the betting websites. The details have been passed onto the Gardaí of course, but you know the types of people who do this shíte - never work a day in their life, and won't be in a position to actually pay back the money. Meanwhile, my brother is penniless after working day, noon and night in 2 jobs. I feel for him, poor fella.

Same happened to me years back - my credit card was carded, but the bank didn't charge me for it.

Cuddlesworth · 14-03-2012 02:13PM

There are more ways to steal a pin then humanly possible to list here. Since its two grand, I'd suggest legal aid for the issue. If the false payments are in Ireland it compounds the issue.

dlofnep · 14-03-2012 02:13PM

forfuxsake wrote: »

Are you sure he isn't trying to hide a gambling problem.

Speak up, I can't hear you from under that bridge!

forfuxsake · 14-03-2012 02:13PM

This is not real. You do not need a pin to gamble online or book flights.

dlofnep · 14-03-2012 02:14PM

superscouse wrote: »

Can you not cancel the tickets as fraud?

My brother was away on holidays while they were on a spending spree, when he got back - he only noticed it. They had gone to town for like 2 weeks at that stage - it was too late by then.

Pace2008 · 14-03-2012 02:14PM

Happened to my mother recently. Some thief used her Laser to do her out of €1,500. Luckily, the money was refunded immediately as the thief used her details to purchase 2 laptops online. My Ma's been with AIB for more than 20 years and she'd never once used her card to purchase anything online so the fraud department accepted it probably wasn't her who'd made the transaction. They were able to tell her that her details were not skimmed from an ATM, but couldn't give her any information aside from that.

How do these scammers acquire and use Laser details, and is there anything you can do to stop them?

bijapos · 14-03-2012 02:15PM

Visa and other cards do not have the same PIN by default although most people tend to change the PIN to have the same one for all cards.

While I sympatise with your brother it doesn't seem to be the banks fault so far so I've no idea why you are blaming them. If your brother isn't happy with the terms and conditions of the ATM card he can always cut it up and go back to the old way of queueing in the bank for his cash.

dlofnep · 14-03-2012 02:15PM

forfuxsake wrote: »

This is not real. You do not need a pin to gamble online or book flights.

Yes you do! If you came out from under that bridge and got yourself a VISA, you'd know that all VISA transactions these days ask for you to enter a pin online.

dlofnep · 14-03-2012 02:17PM

bijapos wrote: »

While I sympatise with your brother it doesn't seem to be the banks fault so far so I've no idea why you are blaming them. If your brother isn't happy with the terms and conditions of the ATM card he can always cut it up and go back to the old way of queueing in the bank for his cash.

Well, they haven't proved that he hasn't taken care to protect his pin. They have assumed it's the case. Like I said - this happens all the time, and banks do not charge people for the transactions. It happened myself only a few years back.

The bank should follow up on all cases of fraudulent purchases, especially if they want to keep customers.

Kensington · 14-03-2012 02:17PM

Probably meant the CVV code, not the PIN.
Was it a Laser card or a Visa Debit?

dlofnep · 14-03-2012 02:18PM

Kensington wrote: »

Probably meant the CVV code, not the PIN.
Was it a Laser card or a Visa Debit?

Nope, it's not the CVV code. The Visa cards have pins for online transactions now. Not sure when it was brought in exactly. It's Visa Debt I believe.

Procasinator · 14-03-2012 02:19PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes you do! If you came out from under that bridge and got yourself a VISA, you'd know that all VISA transactions these days ask for you to enter a pin online.

There is verified by visa, which is different again though to what people traditionally think of as a PIN.

To me, the pin is what you use at the ATM. This is the first I've ever head of the PIN you use at the ATM/Point of Sale device being the same as the the one you use during purchases on websites.

forfuxsake · 14-03-2012 02:20PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes you do! If you came out from under that bridge and got yourself a VISA, you'd know that all VISA transactions these days ask for you to enter a pin online.

No you don't. You need CVV (card verification value code) which you do not enter when taking out money from a cash machine. It is printed on the back of a card.

You cannot use somebody else's card to gamble as any money won would be sent back to that card. Furthermore you cannot fly as the airline would have details of the passenger and their ID details.

So either the OP is making this up or his brother has a gambling problem and is using the premise that somebody stole his details to hide the missing money.

Kensington · 14-03-2012 02:20PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Nope, it's not the CVV code. The Visa cards have pins for online transactions now. Not sure when it was brought in exactly. It's Visa Debt I believe.

Ah right, the 3-D secure/Verified by Visa I take it?
Nope, that's entirely your (well, your brothers in this case) responsibility to keep that secure I'm afraid.

dlofnep · 14-03-2012 02:21PM

Procasinator wrote: »

This is the first I've ever head of the PIN you use at the ATM/Point of Sale device being the same as the the one you use during purchases on websites.

I'm not sure if the pins are the same myself - I know mine are different, but I changed my own visa pin ages ago, and can't remember if it was originally the same as the ATM pin. Does anybody know off the top of their head?

The reason why I'm asking is because judging by the card usage, they started scamming a few hours after he used a local ATM machine.

ballsymchugh · 14-03-2012 02:22PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes you do! If you came out from under that bridge and got yourself a VISA, you'd know that all VISA transactions these days ask for you to enter a pin online.

no they don't. every banking website will have a notice saying that they won't ask for a pin.
when you buy something online, you need the long card number, expiration date, 3 digits from the back and sometimes a name and address.
definitely no PIN needed for online shopping. it's only for use when the chip is used too.

pickarooney · 14-03-2012 02:23PM

I take payments by Visa, Visa Debit, Mastercard every day of the week and have never once needed a PIN to process the transaction. I don't even see how it would work - a PIN requires the presence of the physical card to perform the check on it.

_feedback_ · 14-03-2012 02:23PM

Why would a thief use a card to gamble online? Any winnings would go back to the card? Or else to an online account in the thiefs name. Tickets have to be in their name too..

Doesn't make any sense at all.

44leto · 14-03-2012 02:23PM

dlofnep wrote: »

So my brother's debit card was compromised, and some thief stole 2 grand from his account, spending it on betting websites and plain tickets, etc.

My brother lodged a dispute with the bank - but they are refusing to refund it, because the thief had somehow worked out the pin. Now my brother is oblivious as to how - but you know in these days and ages, with social engineering and phishing scams - anything is possible.

So now my brother is 2 grand short, and some spud-picking thief has got away scot-free with two grand. This is not even my money and I'm furious! The cheek of the bank to charge my brother for the acts of thieves. My brother works long and hard hours, doing two jobs. He doesn't deserve some thieving scumbag to take all of his hard earned dough.

And their reasoning for not refunding it cited (without even knowing how the thief obtained it) - that the pin was not kept safe. Banks, thieves... In cahoots - robbing the working man of all his money in anyway they can

Sorry but that seems reasonable to me, think of it this way, I could give my mate my card, tell him the number, he withdraws 2000 gives me 1000 and I go to the bank and scream thief and expect them to refund me.

I hardly think so.

forfuxsake · 14-03-2012 02:24PM

dlofnep wrote: »

My brother was away on holidays while they were on a spending spree, when he got back - he only noticed it. They had gone to town for like 2 weeks at that stage - it was too late by then.

Away on the flights he booked and betting money on his card.

Not much of a spending spree - gambling money (when you can't access the winnings) and booking flights you can't use.

Cuddlesworth · 14-03-2012 02:24PM

dlofnep wrote: »

My brother was away on holidays while they were on a spending spree, when he got back - he only noticed it. They had gone to town for like 2 weeks at that stage - it was too late by then.

Did he use his card on Holidays? If he did and he has proof he was away then there is a big case there for a scam.

dlofnep · 14-03-2012 02:25PM

forfuxsake wrote: »

No you don't. You need CVV (card verification value code) which you do not enter when taking out money from a cash machine. It is printed on the back of a card.

You're simply wrong. It's called a VBV password, look it up!

forfuxsake wrote: »

You cannot use somebody else's card to gamble as any money won would be sent back to that card.

The money could be deposited into another account.

forfuxsake wrote: »

Furthermore you cannot fly as the airline would have details of the passenger and their ID details.

Yes - they could fly. Anyone can pay for the flights of someone with their credit card. I paid for my mother's flights to Scotland with mine. All it means is that the scammers are obviously stupid and have a good chance of being caught.

forfuxsake wrote: »

So either the OP is making this up or his brother has a gambling problem and is using the premise that somebody stole his details to hide the missing money.

Oh jesus christ, you're as annoying as thrush. Why would I want to make it up? My brother doesn't gamble. Stop trolling.

forfuxsake · 14-03-2012 02:25PM

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Did he use his card on Holidays? If he did and he has proof he was away then there is a big case there for a scam.

Yes, he was gambling and booking his flight home :eek:

dlofnep · 14-03-2012 02:26PM

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Did he use his card on Holidays? If he did and he has proof he was away then there is a big case there for a scam.

The scams began before he went on holidays. It's just that because he was on holidays, he didn't actually get around to checking his statements to actually notice he was being scammed.

dlofnep · 14-03-2012 02:27PM

pickarooney wrote: »

I take payments by Visa, Visa Debit, Mastercard every day of the week and have never once needed a PIN to process the transaction. I don't even see how it would work - a PIN requires the presence of the physical card to perform the check on it.

It's called a VBV password. I have it on my VISA too - it's used to verify transactions.

See here for more info: https://usa.visa.com/personal/security/vbv/index.jsp

Thieving backstards (Thieves, and the bank!)

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