Use Leap, got bus ticket with "ITS Purse Used"

foggy_lad wrote: »

But they are not sorting out the problems which have been ongoing since the launch

Possibly more to do with the drivers having a bus to drive and passengers to board and a schedule to keep so not having time to mess about navigating a broken system which should not have been launched until a flat fare or other driverless method of validation had been introduced.

Their complaints procedure is a bit hit and miss but the number of leapcard issues can't be making things any better.

there seems to be a lot of "human error" associated with the leapcard which is then considered to be working correctly but I would say that it is not working due to the high numbers of errors mostly from within Dublin bus whether from drivers or incorrectly programmed validators!

I'd agree with Foggy_Lad's sentiments here.

A great deal of the "Problems" associated with Dublin Bus's Leapcard infrastructure are almost blindingly basic.

I would guess that c.5% of my at-machine transactions are Leapcard ,a very small figure,destined to reduce if these issues are not attended to.

Probably THE most basic issue is the orientation of the Leapcard reader on the Ticket Machine.

Quite simply,it is wrong,allowing the Leapcard to slide off,usually falling onto the floor and destroying any natural flow of passengers,both machine and/or remote reader based.

The other issue I have difficulty with is the variation in read times before the Leapcard display activates,which is now compounded by a new found tendency for the Leapcard screen to flicker and rapidly alternate between Cash/Leap.

The actual time-delay between my pressing the appropriate Leapfare button and the green-light to the Cardholder also appears highly variable,which leads to me having to ask a departing cardholder to re-present as the deduction did not go through.

Again,a simple issue at play,but why the Leapcard developers did not provide an unambiguous "Transaction Complete" signal TO THE DRIVER,is to my mind incredible.

The entire Leapcard/Wayfarer interface is,sadly,a convoluted mess,particularly when dealing with non-standard fares such as Schoolchild,City-Centre,Transaction Annulments or Out-of-Credit situations.

There is virtually nothing intuitive about the structure of the Leapcard screens,with various functions being scattered about the display,and importantly,some buttons now having a different function for Leap than they have/had for cash.

Much of the flow asociated with Busdriving/Passenger handling relates to repetitive,single keystroke entries to the Ticket Machine..."Keep it Simple,Stupid".....In this,The U.S Marine Corps were absolutely on target,Bullseye.

What the developers of Leapcard have delivered to us (Busdrivers AND Customers) is a system which fails the KISS test at almost every point of use......That is unforgivable and was from day one,(10 years ago)TOTALLY avoidable.

It is equally of note,that to date,no feedback or opinion has been sought from Dublin Bus Staff who operate Leapcard.

My great fear is of the next Leapcard issue,probably something simple,being the Straw which breaks the Camels back and sends the user back to cash,or even away from Public Transport altogether...I believe it to be THAT important.

KD345 wrote: »

It is disappointing that there are still so many issues with Leap Card. Following an expensive and extensive advertising campaign, many passengers bought a leap card as they felt it would improve their experience of using public transport. I'm guessing many of these people probably bought a leap card with about €20 or €50 credit, but my worry now is how many of these passengers will be rushing to top up again once their credit runs out?

Think about it. What real benefits are there? You may be charged for topping up at a shop, if you top up online it can be difficult for a bus passenger to get that credit onto their card. Then there is the serious issue of bus drivers issuing incorrect fares or duplicate fares. Also, for the majority of bus passengers, I'm assuming they have now realised that there is very little "leaping" actually involved, as those passengers who have gone to the trouble of actually buying a leap card still have to queue with with fare paying passengers.

The NTA had one chance to get this right. I'm not sure they have. It will be interesting to see how many bus passengers and first time Leap card users actually continue to top up their card.

I actually take a far dimmer view of this KD345.

The NTA and before them the RPA and the ITIG,have had over a decade to get all of these issues sorted and put to rights.

The essentials of this scheme were well flagged over a decade ago,by successive individuals and groups of stakeholders.

Meeting after meeting discussed and kicked the issues further down the road until we were finally graced with the rushed introduction of an ITS system with the flaws of a decade ago still firmly embedded within it.

WHY was at least some of the €40 million plus of "consultancy fees" and the like,not put to effective use to deliver a seamless Public Transport Ticketing Product FROM DAY 1...?

What we are currently struggling with is a chronic abberation and of little real advantage in terms of what was promised,but a solution remains possible IF the problems are addressed.

n97 mini wrote: »

Just checked on-line and indeed I have been charged twice for the single journey.

The 2nd most annoying thing is that the bolix of a bus driver knew well he had made a mistake but never said anything to me.

Could you perhaps offer us a definition of the term "Bolix" as used by you here n97mini ?

The reason I enquire is that thus far you have managed not only to deduce that the "Young wan" on the BAC customer service line was only interested in "going to the pub" and then you managed to further develop that into a specific pub (Coppers ?).

I am in awe of this ability to read personalities and intentions from afar ...;)

Got the bus today and the driver was fumbling with the machine, I suspected he was confused. Anyway he printed out a ticket with "ITS Purse Used" and at the bottom is says Purse Balance €14.25. The website says I have €17.65. Did he give me this ticket as he knew he had overcharged me? He never said anything.

As a long standing contributor to these threads you will have been aware that recieving a Paper Ticket for a Leapcard transaction means you have been charged a second fare,as you were on your own I presume you might have considered drawing this to the drivers attention at the time ?

Plenty of nonsense associated with Leapcard for sure,but calling a Busdriver,whom you concede, never even spoke to you,a "Bolix",kinda detracts from your angst at being charged a second €1.70 fare.....:)

At least it was'nt an Xpresso.

At least your paper ticket now identifies the Driver/Duty concerned,so the Company may be able to upskill the specific individual to ensure you don't experience the situation again..and perhaps transmit apologies for rushing to judgement online ?

n97 mini wrote: »

Look, I'm not getting into an argument about this. I understand you blindly defending bus drivers because you are one. But you weren't there and didn't see the nature of the transaction. I was. So please, as I am the one out of pocket and majorly inconvenienced through the actions of other(s), I reserve the right to call it as I see it.

No arguement at all n97 mini....as 1 of 2000+ Dublin Bus drivers I most certainly do not put myself forward as a "defender" of their faith at all.

Your Driver did not meet your expectations in this instance,something which you initially put down to confusion.

Yet as the thread expands,we see this interpretation alter to the individual Driver being a "Bolix".

As,by your own account,there was NO other interaction between you and he,I'm curious as to what occurred to harden your view of this person,for that is what he is,rather than in integral part of the Bus itself.

You have every right to call it as you see it,and doubtless exercise that right,however you do not have a right to become abusive towards an individual on the basis of a single momentary interaction.

You most certainly have issue with Dublin Bus/Leapcard on a variety of problems, including Driver Training for ITS and poor general awareness of Leapcard procedures.

You are already aware of the avenues available to pursue those issues,however,yet again when outlining your complaint you choose to embark on a similar path of denigration...

I spoke to DB who were not aware of what "ITS Purse Used" meant. I explained, and that as they have the option of backing transactions out before they're billed (as it's not real-time) that it would be a good way to undo drivers' mistakes. I asked had the a feedback system to record my suggestion and, well, I'd say the young wan I was talking to was more interested in going to the pub. Very polite, but didn't know much and was disinterested.

I asked that question, and yer one was "Oh yeah, sure, no problem" as she looked at the clock with Coppers on her mind.

From my perspective,and I'd suggest the perspective of ANY Customer Service operation,once an individual comes out with remarks as bolded above,they substantially reduce the impact of their own complaint.

That,n97 mini,is me calling it as I see it.

n97 mini wrote: »

New information became available as the thread went on. When I started the thread I had a suspicion I had been overcharged. I could not confirm it. It was not until it appeared on my Leap card on-line account the next day that it was confirmed that said driver had overcharged me without saying anything.

As I said, I'm not arguing it. I was there, and I told it as I see it.


On an internet forum, not the real world. But you can do what you like.

There's no arguing is there...?

Different perceptions perhaps,but reasoned nonetheless.

The Ticket Machine display would have shown the Cardholder,at the time of transaction,what the available card balance was.

The DublinBus Leapcard experience is flawed,and thats for sure,however thats a different issue altogether to intimating that an individual Busdriver has deliberately issued you with a second ticket.l

Are you suggesting that this fellow has embarked upon a crusade to overcharge all Leapcard holders,or alternatively has targeted You specifically ?

You have experienced a mistake on the Busdrivers part...you have raised the issue with the relevant companies...why the urge to denigrate individual staff members who,in the case of the BAC Customer Care gal,you have never even met ?

My issue here,is the nonchalant ease with which you casually abuse,on an internet forum or otherwise a complete stranger who never even spoke with you,even after your "suspicions were aroused" and you had opportunity to raise it with him then.

I'm afraid it appears a rush to judgement and execution from my (real world) perspective.

bk wrote: »

I have not seen the interface of the ticket machines, but from AlexSmarts description and as a software engineer myself, it sounds like a very shoddy user interface design job.

Having seen the pretty terrible design of the leap.ie website, it really doesn't surprise me *

As it has been said, the KISS principle rules user interface design. But to my mind the entire Leap experience is completely broken on Dublin Bus.

- Can't top up on DB, automated top-ups should have been available from day one.
- Paying by Leap seems slower then by cash
- Too many mistakes by drivers (either due to user error or bad UI and software).

To really follow the KISS principle that primary focus and aim of DB should be to eliminate driver/passenger interaction to a minimum so that the diver can focus on driving and operating the bus safely.

Ideally Leap should be a flat fare on Dublin Bus. If that is too much to handle, then a compromise of setting Leap maximum fare either at the price of a travel 90 or the 1.90 fare and giving the option to tag off for shorter journeys.

* Different teams probably developed the website and the ticket machine interface as it requires a different set of skills, embedded programing versus web application programming. However it shows the same shoddy management decisions to me.

Could'nt have put it better meself !!

From my perspective the current DublinBus Leapcard interface is a classic case of "Too Many Cooks" having rather spectacularly spoiled the Leapcard broth.

However,I'm loath to blame Dublin Bus entirely for this sad situation.

There is no gatting away from the fact that Leapcard remains a mainstream Government Policy issue relating to Public Transport.

The various agencies involved in it's gestation and eventual birth comprise a full list of STATUTORY Bodies assiciated with Public Transport from the Department of Transport down.

ANY ONE of these agencies,including the ITIB itself had the power to set the parameters for the ITS scheme and thus ensure it's comprehensive success.

For whatever reason however,NONE of these agencies managed to display even a smidgin of understanding as to the vast possibilities inherent in Contactless Card technology to improve the lot of the Public Transport user.

It should be noted that Dublin Bus's own Contactless Products have been operational and trouble free for some years now.

This,as a result of the early decision to allow Operators to develop and introduce individual contactless products with a vague committment to integrate the various products at a later stage.

This "Later Stage Integration" remains,for me,the basic flaw in the entire project,as the integration process for the CIE group alone graphically demonstrates.

What we now have is a situation which renders the KISS principle almost impossible to achieve,unless one of the Statutories gets a huge rush of reality to it's head and legislates it's way out of this mess.