Most of the worlds economy is a waste of time and space

toughbuttfair · 09-03-2012 11:50AM #1

Watched a documentary few months ago that made the claim that by the 1920's mankind had reached a point where it could produce everything it needed for people to survive. It went on to say that post 1920's any economic growth was based on producing and buying and selling goods to each other that are not really needed i.e. consumer goods.

The only reason we buy these goods is because of an advertising machine that convinces us that they are essential for our happiness, and without them we will be total losers. I've come to the conclusion that about 60% of the world's economy is a waste of time and effort.

For example iPhones, smartphones, do we real need an updated one every year? Couldn't we make do with updating them every five years? Same with laptops, computer, T.V's etc. Do we really need Blu Ray? Whats wrong with DVD's? The housing ladder? For me a three bed semi is more than enough. You're only likely to have one or two kids at the most. Why the hell do you need a seven bed mansion with 5 bathrooms? Facebook? It's not like any of this crap is going to make you live longer?

fungun · 09-03-2012 11:54AM

Some of it is for enjoyment, not just to 'live longer.'

However this thread is a waste of time and space.

Logical Fallacy · 09-03-2012 11:54AM

toughbuttfair wrote: »

For me a three bed semi is more than enough. You're only likely to have one or two kids at the most. Why the hell do you need a seven bed mansion with 5 bathrooms? Facebook? It's not like any of this crap is going to make you live longer?

Indeed, but the concept of profitability through progress since the 1920's has actually led to quite a bit of stuff that does make you live longer.

ScumLord · 09-03-2012 11:56AM

toughbuttfair wrote: »

The only reason we buy these goods is because of an advertising machine that convinces us that they are essential for our happiness, and without them we will be total losers. I've come to the conclusion that about 60% of the world's economy is a waste of time and effort.

Making and selling goods is essential to the way the economy works now. If we don't make them then nobody has a job to buy food. While it's a giant waste of time if we don't do it the current shambling system breaks down around us and if there's nothing in place to replace it people will die.

For example iPhones, smartphones, do we real need an updated one every year?

Yes, technological advancements are essential to getting human off this planet.

What's wrong with DVD's?

They're crap compared to Blueray, why would you want crap?

I'm afraid your just going to have to make do, nobodies going to risk what they have for an untested way of doing things. Unless the global economy gets so bad people have no choice but I don't think even that will happen. The global economy is a fantasy that they'll change just enough to keep the power where it is.

im invisible · 09-03-2012 11:57AM

Meh

Yakult · 09-03-2012 12:03PM

toughbuttfair wrote: »

For example iPhones, smartphones, do we real need an updated one every year? Couldn't we make do with updating them every five years? Same with laptops, computer, T.V's etc. Do we really need Blu Ray? Whats wrong with DVD's? The housing ladder? For me a three bed semi is more than enough. You're only likely to have one or two kids at the most. Why the hell do you need a seven bed mansion with 5 bathrooms? Facebook? It's not like any of this crap is going to make you live longer?

Terrible examples, please try again.

Sergeant · 09-03-2012 12:04PM

You could take a stand and reject all these modern conveniences. I look forward to reading your penny pamphlet where you extol the virtues of living a simpler life.

CreepingDeath · 09-03-2012 12:05PM

toughbuttfair wrote: »

Watched a documentary few months ago that made the claim that by the 1920's mankind had reached a point where it could produce everything it needed for people to survive.

Ah yes, I think you're talking about the documentaries from "Luxstock"
They're available from YouTube here.

YouTube documentary links

Before the 1920's the Americans were frugal, only buying what they needed etc. Then the realm of public relations & marketing came in with the help of psychoanalysts who managed to manipulate people into buying things they didn't need. Getting people to indulge themselves, and obviously that shaped American society from then on.

toughbuttfair · 09-03-2012 12:09PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Making and selling goods is essential to the way the economy works now. If we don't make them then nobody has a job to buy food. While it's a giant waste of time if we don't do it the current shambling system breaks down around us and if there's nothing in place to replace it people will die.

Yes, technological advancements are essential to getting human off this planet.

We got off the planet way before iPhones were around. Not exactly essential.

Yakult wrote: »

Terrible examples, please try again.

You give us a few then.

Sergeant wrote: »

You could take a stand and reject all these modern conveniences. I look forward to reading your penny pamphlet where you extol the virtues of living a simpler life.

So buying something is equated with complexity?

toughbuttfair · 09-03-2012 12:11PM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Indeed, but the concept of profitability through progress since the 1920's has actually led to quite a bit of stuff that does make you live longer.

Did for a while. Now its working against itself

foxyboxer · 09-03-2012 12:16PM

Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need.

All you really need is oxygen, food, water and shelter.
Anything else is a bonus!

ScumLord · 09-03-2012 12:20PM

toughbuttfair wrote: »

We got off the planet way before iPhones were around. Not exactly essential.

We need to be able to live in space if we are to keep going the way we're going. Its the only place we can have infinite growth.

EL_Loco · 09-03-2012 12:27PM

I saw something on the financial system and basically money gets created through borrowing and interest, and it's all a big loop of creating money out of nothing in the hopes of paying it back further down the line. So yeah, it's a bit mad alright.

FoxT · 09-03-2012 12:31PM

Hmmm.. iphones & bluray players not the most vital things in the whole world, but since the 1920s a lot of work has gone into things like X-ray machines, antibiotics, transport, energy, communications - with the result that for many people, the availability & quality of goods like healthcare, travel, education, housing - have improved immensely.

bullpost · 09-03-2012 12:36PM

Is that you Joe Higgins?

toughbuttfair wrote: »

Watched a documentary few months ago that made the claim that by the 1920's mankind had reached a point where it could produce everything it needed for people to survive. It went on to say that post 1920's any economic growth was based on producing and buying and selling goods to each other that are not really needed i.e. consumer goods.

The only reason we buy these goods is because of an advertising machine that convinces us that they are essential for our happiness, and without them we will be total losers. I've come to the conclusion that about 60% of the world's economy is a waste of time and effort.

For example iPhones, smartphones, do we real need an updated one every year? Couldn't we make do with updating them every five years? Same with laptops, computer, T.V's etc. Do we really need Blu Ray? Whats wrong with DVD's? The housing ladder? For me a three bed semi is more than enough. You're only likely to have one or two kids at the most. Why the hell do you need a seven bed mansion with 5 bathrooms? Facebook? It's not like any of this crap is going to make you live longer?

toughbuttfair · 09-03-2012 12:43PM

ScumLord wrote: »

We need to be able to live in space if we are to keep going the way we're going. Its the only place we can have infinite growth.

Totally agree with you on this point. But its not going to happen if our brightest minds spend all of their time coming up with "complex" financial algorithms, or developing faster ways to download porn. There hasn't been any real development in space exploration since the late sixties.

EL_Loco wrote: »

I saw something on the financial system and basically money gets created through borrowing and interest, and it's all a big loop of creating money out of nothing in the hopes of paying it back further down the line. So yeah, it's a bit mad alright.

Thats it exactly; one 300 year old pyramid scheme.

toughbuttfair · 09-03-2012 12:45PM

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Ah yes, I think you're talking about the documentaries from "Luxstock"
They're available from YouTube here.

YouTube documentary links

Before the 1920's the Americans were frugal, only buying what they needed etc. Then the realm of public relations & marketing came in with the help of psychoanalysts who managed to manipulate people into buying things they didn't need. Getting people to indulge themselves, and obviously that shaped American society from then on.

Yep that's the one.

srsly78 · 09-03-2012 12:50PM

Automatic luddite fail for using the internet.

ScumLord · 09-03-2012 12:50PM

toughbuttfair wrote: »

Totally agree with you on this point. But its not going to happen if our brightest minds spend all of their time coming up with "complex" financial algorithms, or developing faster ways to download porn. There hasn't been any real development in space exploration since the late sixties.

There have been loads as a matter of fact. Everything we do in relation to low power consumption electronics will eventually be of benefit in space. NASA started the miniaturisation craze as they couldn't send the massive old computers into space.

Everything we do towards environmental concerns will helps us make the most of resources in space. Even bureaucracy has it's place as we'll need to be very careful with our resources in space and everything will have to be done flawlessly to prevent accidents.

The fact is we are in a sense living on a spaceship right now and all the problems we face with over population and limited resources are problems we would face in space on man made ships.

toughbuttfair · 09-03-2012 12:58PM

ScumLord wrote: »

There have been loads as a matter of fact. Everything we do in relation to low power consumption electronics will eventually be of benefit in space. NASA started the miniaturisation craze as they couldn't send the massive old computers into space.

Everything we do towards environmental concerns will helps us make the most of resources in space. Even bureaucracy has it's place as we'll need to be very careful with our resources in space and everything will have to be done flawlessly to prevent accidents.

The fact is we are in a sense living on a spaceship right now and all the problems we face with over population and limited resources are problems we would face in space on man made ships.

We're about 30 years behind where we should be, walking on Mars, Europa, Titan etc. Instead we're buying overpriced handbags

toughbuttfair · 09-03-2012 12:59PM

srsly78 wrote: »

Automatic luddite fail for using the internet.

Again you're confusing technological advancement with buying and selling crap.

Red_Wake · 09-03-2012 01:08PM

toughbuttfair wrote: »

We're about 30 years behind where we should be, walking on Mars, Europa, Titan etc. Instead we're buying overpriced handbags

What makes you think that we could overcome the challenges facing visiting Mars/Europa/Titan?

And in fairness, most people don't give a **** about space exploration. They like consumer goods, so society prioritises the production of consumer goods.

Drumpot · 09-03-2012 01:57PM

I agree very much with the ops sentiment and have been arguing with friends for sometime that consumerism is less about improving people's lives as it is about feeding a financial system that demands consumption.

I have and love my iPhone. You don't have to hate inventions or indeed not use them to acknowledge that they are not a necessity for the improvement of humans lives. The presumption that choice automatically makes fr better living is naive and a very cOnformed line of thought.

Survival should be our overriding drive as a species. Space exploration, global warming, asteroid protection , disease prevention, health issues should be the single most important things to our most intelligent and suvcessfuk innovators. But vested interests and greed seems to be excused and ignored at what will eventually be to the cost of humanity. I'm not a hippie, I just see the complete and utter stupidity of humanity. I can't change or enlighten the world so I will just run with it and enjoy it for as long as i can.

I just wish I could take a red pill (like the matrix) so I could forget what is obvious ignorance of man and be as non self aware as the majority who confirm to conventional "wisdom". The movie idiocracy is a parody on the world. It's not far off wrong with regards to humans priorities.

09-03-2012 02:00PM

http://static.moviefanatic.com/images/gallery/tyler-durden-pic.jpg

sup tyler

toughbuttfair · 09-03-2012 02:00PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

What makes you think that we could overcome the challenges facing visiting Mars/Europa/Titan?

And in fairness, most people don't give a **** about space exploration. They like consumer goods, so society prioritises the production of consumer goods.

The biggest technical challenges to exploring these places have already been overcome such as escaping the Earth's gravity. The main obstacle is a man made one in the form of lack of adequate funding.

People would prioritize space exploration if they realized that not doing so can kill them. The crux of my argument is that we waste a huge amount of time and resources convincing people that they have to engage in activity that wastes a huge amount of time and resources, in order to feel good about themselves.

09-03-2012 02:22PM

toughbuttfair wrote: »

The biggest technical challenges to exploring these places have already been overcome such as escaping the Earth's gravity. The main obstacle is a man made one in the form of lack of adequate funding.

People would prioritize space exploration if they realized that not doing so can kill them. The crux of my argument is that we waste a huge amount of time and resources convincing people that they have to engage in activity that wastes a huge amount of time and resources, in order to feel good about themselves.

Not exploring space isn't going to kill anyone alive right now you moron

Logical Fallacy · 09-03-2012 02:26PM

toughbuttfair wrote: »

We're about 30 years behind where we should be, walking on Mars, Europa, Titan etc. Instead we're buying overpriced handbags

I actually don't think so, i reckon we are ahead of the game. Given the period of human history where practically nothing changed...at all...what we have acheived in the last 100 years is nothing short of astounding.

foxyboxer · 09-03-2012 02:27PM

"If I asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said, a faster horse"
Henry Ford.

If for example the US and Russia planned a joint Mars landing project, they are going to need the funding to achieve that goal. The funding would be derived from taxes so buying a handbag or the latest iGimmick would ironically be partially funding space exploration.

bnt · 09-03-2012 02:28PM

If I try to put the OP's concerns in to economic language, it comes back to the notion of GDP (Gross Domestic Product) and the flaws with how we measure that. Much of what we call "the economy" consists not of creating wealth, but moving wealth around. If you buy a house, for example, that is counted in the GDP of a country ... but what has been created in that transaction? If you paid more than the house was worth, the seller has gained wealth, but you have lost wealth. The bank gives you a mortgage, and the interest on it is a gain to them - but again, it came out of your pocket, so no wealth has been created.

Think of all the money that moved around within Ireland - and in and out of Ireland - over the last decade or so. What is left behind to be called "wealth"? The Book of Kells? :cool:

If you dig down through the layers in the economy, to see where real wealth is being created, it always comes down to stuff we don't get from other people: fish from the sea, oil and minerals from the ground, and so on. The problem I have with GDP is that "moving money around" is "economic activity" included in GDP, but that's not a true measure of a society's overall wealth.

(Note: I know it's not quite that simple, and macroeconomists do make some effort to account for "externalities", but GDP is still over-used by the media as a measure of a country's success. )

Too much for AH? Tough.

Tiddlypeeps · 09-03-2012 02:30PM

Drumpot wrote: »

I just wish I could take a red pill (like the matrix) so I could forget what is obvious ignorance of man and be as non self aware as the majority who confirm to conventional "wisdom". The movie idiocracy is a parody on the world. It's not far off wrong with regards to humans priorities.

You're so deep... :rolleyes:

http://xkcd.com/610/

I on the other hand am happy out in my apparent ignorance. I love my iPhone, gps and internet where ever I am has saved me so much hassel and time over the last couple of years. I don't have a smart phone because I was told by an advert that I needed one, I have one because it genuinely makes my life so much easier.

I like that technology has advanced to the point where we can produce so much excess that I don't ever have to look at a farm. Not having to worry about where your next meal is going to come from has left a lot of people with a mighty amount of free time. Time some use to research medicine which helps us all to live longer and more comfortable lives. Some use that free time to create beautiful works of art, I enjoy listening to music and watching movies, I'm fairly certain I wouldn't be happy if I had to spend all my time working and had no time for any entertainment.

So what exactly is so bad about consumerism?

People my be misguided in what makes up a quality, and may be victims of advertising in that respect but that's an entirely different issues.

Spacedog · 09-03-2012 02:34PM

OP, I have taken the time to watch the documentary you have posted, and you are 100% correct.

Most of the worlds economy is a waste of time and space

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