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Why don't so many people train their dogs properly;

  • 06-03-2012 01:41PM
    #1
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭


    It drives me mad, today I was barely out the door when I saw a typical scene, a man walking his dog, well, in all honesty the dog was walking him, dragging him left right and centre. I was walking past and his dog jumped up on me, suit pants ruined.

    Its not the first time this has happened, next time I'm going to make the owner pay for dry cleaning. Its not hard to train your dog not to jump up on people.

    Why do so many people not bother to train their dogs properly, ie to walk calmly beside them, not to jump up etc? One of the great pleasures I get from owning a dog is teaching new tricks/tasks. Old dogs can learn knew tricks.

    Bit of a rant I know, but I only have one suit and I had to wear jeans instead to an important meeting.


Comments

  • #2
    littlebug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,832 ✭✭✭littlebug


    :D

    16 months since my getting my dog (then aged about 2), 3 different trainers, an attempt at obedience classes, a lot of time and money and still my dog jumps (or tries to) on people and will pull like a steam train :) I've almost* accepted that some old dogs just can't (or won't) learn new tricks.... if they don't want to.
    (*small part of me still hoping for a miracle)

    eta... I did offer to pay for dry cleaning of kids' headmaster's coat :o I feel like apologising to you OP even though it wasn't me/ my dog:o


  • #3
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    All it takes to train a dog is mind numbing repitition.

    If anyone wants to stop their dog pulling, don't use a harness, it just makes it fun for them (like pulling a sled!) I don't know how anyone can enjoy walking a dog that pulls.

    What would you say if your dog muddied my clothes and I asked you to pay to get them cleaned? If my dog did it(she wouldnt because she is properly trained) I'd think its only fair to make amends.

    You can teach an old dog new tricks, saying otherwise is just giving up.


  • #4
    littlebug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,832 ✭✭✭littlebug


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    All it takes to train a dog is mind numbing repitition.

    If anyone wants to stop their dog pulling, don't use a harness, it just makes it fun for them (like pulling a sled!) I don't know how anyone can enjoy walking a dog that pulls.

    What would you say if your dog muddied my clothes and I asked you to pay to get them cleaned? If my dog did it(she wouldnt because she is properly trained) I'd think its only fair to make amends.

    You can teach an old dog new tricks, saying otherwise is just giving up.

    I'd offer to pay for cleaning your clothes before you asked ;)
    I use a front clip harness and for the most part my dog doesn't pull "that" much anymore (because it's uncomfortable) with it unless her nose gets stuck into something or she sees something to chase or someone she wants to get to. Same with halti etc. I've been doing the mind numbing stop, turn etc thing when she pulls for 16 months.
    same with jumping.... she never jumps on kids but if adults make eye contact with her at all when we're out, front paws are up in the blink of an eye. I usually keep her on very short lead if there are people around so she wouldn't usually make contact. Been working on this on a daily basis for 16 months.

    I think my dog just isn't like other dogs:o... very highly strung and impulsive. Don't get me wrong ... she's like a different dog to the one we took home so our efforts have made a change but i can't help feeling we've reached a plateau and it's now all about management rather than training. Would love to see continued improvement but it's been a while. It's not always "that" easy.


  • #5
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    I think it's sheer unadulterated laziness, the fact that some people don't put even a modicum of effort into training their dogs. Stopping Tegan pulling on the lead took months, but now she walks on a loose lead. It only took a couple of days to stop Rani jumping up on people.

    It's just calm perseverance and repetition.


  • #6
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    get a dog - prepare for long training

    giving anything less is an in justice to the dog. man i nearly pulled my hair out many time thru the years. i seem to be drawn to stubborn headstrong dogs :D


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  • #7
    gamgsam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 292 ✭✭gamgsam


    Just to explain the part of the story ye don't seem to see.

    I own a dog. He's well behaved to a certain extent i.e. doesn't defecate inside, won't bite your hand off for food.

    But he isn't trained to walk on a lead. I don't agree with turning a dog into an object of my forced obedience. I put him on the lead when I absolutely have to, otherwise he is off it to do his own thing. By the way, he would by no means be the type to jump on a stranger, and if he was, that is one thing that I would train out of him.

    Minimal training for my dog, I think he is happier. He's a very cool dog :)


  • #8
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    gamgsam wrote: »
    Just to explain the part of the story ye don't seem to see.

    I own a dog. He's well behaved to a certain extent i.e. doesn't defecate inside, won't bite your hand off for food.

    But he isn't trained to walk on a lead. I don't agree with turning a dog into an object of my forced obedience. I put him on the lead when I absolutely have to, otherwise he is off it to do his own thing. By the way, he would by no means be the type to jump on a stranger, and if he was, that is one thing that I would train out of him.

    Minimal training for my dog, I think he is happier. He's a very cool dog :)

    but if he doesnt jump on people or harass them, then minimum training is all that was needed with him and fair play to both you and him :)

    i think OP is talking about the dogs that are clearly in need of manners around people but dont have them.


  • #9
    gamgsam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 292 ✭✭gamgsam


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    but if he doesnt jump on people or harass them, then minimum training is all that was needed with him

    Yeah I suppose that's right. He does pull like crazy on the lead though, but as I said he's barely ever on it so it could never really annoy me. I don't think it would anyway, just him being a dog


  • #10
    gud4u
    Closed Accounts Posts: 369 ✭✭gud4u


    My JRT dirtied my friends white jeans:eek:, I offered to wash them, but she was too p*ssed at me. I've since trained her not to jump, it was surprisingly easy, a few smacks to the head and she was grand...only joking:eek:. A few well placed ah ahs was all it took, I guess my voice is higher because she will not respond to hubbie. He has to clap his hands.

    My gsd will jump on people I don't like, I think he's a mind reasder, I have not trained this out of him. If i'm walking somewhere isolated he used to be very protective but we sorted that early, once I was trained.;)

    If i'm out on a walk he doesn't bother with anyone, but if someone calls to the house at night(we have a specific type of uninvited person that use to call regularly)he tends to do a little hop and kick out his front paws at them.

    I was going to train him to stop, but instead, he'll now sit beside me when the doorbell rings, but just don't come in uninvited.:P


  • #11
    Cherry Blossom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,009 ✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    A lot of people don't try and give all sorts of excuses, sometimes it's laziness, ignorance or just plain arrogance.

    But . . everyone has to start somewhere and dogs aren't born with the knowledge of what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour in the human world. Every well trained dog started off as a crazy pup and went through a period where they were a 'work in progress' some longer than others on various aspects of their training depending on the individual dog, breed and the owners priorities of which aspects are more important.

    There is also a lot of misinformation out there as regards to 'how to train a dog'. Sometimes people try a method - find it doesn't work and become stumped as to what to do or keep trying something that goes nowhere. The owner's personality and how good a match this is for the dog also comes into play, a person who is somewhat impatient or lacking in confidence will struggle a lot with a dog that is headstrong and will-full for example. It doesn't come naturally to a lot of people and some peoples brains will work by a different sort of logic and things that might work for their dog don't always completely make sense to them. Sometimes failure leads to frustration which only further leads to lack of training.
    littlebug wrote: »

    16 months since my getting my dog (then aged about 2), 3 different trainers, an attempt at obedience classes, a lot of time and money and still my dog jumps (or tries to) on people and will pull like a steam train :) I've almost* accepted that some old dogs just can't (or won't) learn new tricks.... if they don't want to.

    Generalising a lot here but a little observation I have made about 'dog trainers' (in the broadest sense of the term) is that very few of them own breeds like terriers, scent dogs, huskies etc. Typically a dog trainers own pet will be a breed that is highly intelligent and very focused on their owner - breeds that excel in obedience (herding breeds, and less commonly - gun dogs), I'll bet a lot of the courses for would be dog trainers have lines of owner focused GSD's and border collies in attendance. Their own dogs have to be a walking example of the results of what they know. What makes a strong-willed terrier tick is very different, a lot harder to tap into and almost impossible to get complete consistency. Applying a method that works for herding dogs won't be guaranteed to work and a lot of the lesser qualified trainers may not have much experience with the more independent breeds. I get the impression that Kerry blues are the ultimate challenge so you should probably give yourself a bit of a break and a pat on the back for effort :D


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  • #12
    The Sweeper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,658 ✭✭✭✭The Sweeper


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    All it takes to train a dog is mind numbing repitition.

    And consistency. And motivation. And changing venues while you repeat. And positive reinforcement. Depending on the dog - some also require some form of negative reinforcement because the positive isn't sufficiently motivating if they're a high drive or dominant dog. And sometimes peace and quiet. And sometimes different tactics because the first tactics were improperly used by the original owner. And environmental considerations like whether the dog is in the right mood to respond to the motivator. And time. And energy. And money if you aren't getting it right and need an external trainer. And the realisation that training is life-long because everybody's definition of 'trained' is different.

    But that's okay, OP, it's good that you have had such successful results with your own dog. By the way, walking harnesses don't act like a sleigh-dog harness - they're designed to pull or turn the dog uncomfortably if it strains forwards, so essentially they're a self-correction harness - when the dog pulls, the harness feels unpleasant so they stop pulling.


  • #13
    Inexile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭Inexile


    I would love my dogs to be perfectly trained. But they are not.
    However, I manage them - and they are not let jump up on people or run riot. The ones I dont trust with recall are not let off outside.

    I have tried various things, self training, attending with a trainer, harness etc but I still have lots of things to work on. At one class my dog was perfectly behaved and never left my side. I get home and recall is nil!

    Unfortunately, we all dont have access to training classes - mine ones finished up and didnt continue - and we all arent blessed with trainer skills. I can teach sit, down, paw but not recall. One of my dogs got it the other didnt so we managed it.

    I think as long as you are aware of your dogs short comings and dont allow them to become a nuisance to others then its ok.


  • #14
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    adrenalinjunkie wrote: »
    Generalising a lot here but a little observation I have made about 'dog trainers' (in the broadest sense of the term) is that very few of them own breeds like terriers, scent dogs, huskies etc. Typically a dog trainers own pet will be a breed that is highly intelligent and very focused on their owner - breeds that excel in obedience (herding breeds, and less commonly - gun dogs), I'll bet a lot of the courses for would be dog trainers have lines of owner focused GSD's and border collies in attendance. Their own dogs have to be a walking example of the results of what they know. What makes a strong-willed terrier tick is very different, a lot harder to tap into and almost impossible to get complete consistency. Applying a method that works for herding dogs won't be guaranteed to work and a lot of the lesser qualified trainers may not have much experience with the more independent breeds.
    I'd so agree with this AJ. Some very owner focused breeds/individuals damn near train themselves, while others are a whole different ballgame. Something like a high energy husky with a high prey drive is going to be a very different prospect to say a border collie or lab. Doable certainly, but a lot more work and not nearly as reliable. A trainer who only deals with easy going and focused "lapdogs" may not be much cop with such a dog. Sometimes you just have to adapt to the dog in question and accept that Lassie style obedience/training isn't gonna fit and just general control and obedience is the best you can hope for.
    The Sweeper wrote: »
    And consistency. And motivation. And changing venues while you repeat. And positive reinforcement. Depending on the dog - some also require some form of negative reinforcement because the positive isn't sufficiently motivating if they're a high drive or dominant dog.
    Again I'd agree here 100%. Positive reinforcement should be 100% the aim of training, because it does work and isn't cruel(which is a biggie), however with some dogs/breeds 10% negative reinforcement may be required. Just as the choke chain/dominance brigade can be needlessly black and white, the positive training folks can also be a little too black and white themselves IMHO. Sometimes a very firm and understood "NO" type correction is required.

    I'd defo not agree with the "you cant teach an old dog new tricks" idea. My last fella I "trained" to lay down, roll over and give the paw when he was 13. When he was younger, good luck. Even so I needed food in my own paw for it to work. He never bought into the Pavlovs dog association thing at all. With a fillet steak in my hand he'd damn near do the waltz on his back legs while playing the ukelele with his front legs. Empty handed he gave me "the look" which roughly translated as "WTF? make with the food, monkey boy". :D

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #15
    Kash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭Kash


    Originally Posted by The Sweeper viewpost.gif
    And consistency. And motivation. And changing venues while you repeat. And positive reinforcement. Depending on the dog - some also require some form of negative reinforcement because the positive isn't sufficiently motivating if they're a high drive or dominant dog.

    I agree with all of this, and would add in cooperation from others, and a bit of luck for good measure.

    We have two dogs, and one is very eager to please, loves to learn new things, and is very quick to pick things up. She will do all the basics, and I can trust her to come back immediately if I call. She would never jump up on a random stranger (neither of my dogs would) but on the flipside, if someone she loves calls to the house, she will jump up when saying hello. Never with me (because she gets the 'NO' voice) but with a few of my friends, despite me saying Say No, turn your back & ignore the dog etc. they go "Aw who's happy to see me - wag wag wag". And this positive reinforcement is more fun. So, she also occasionally does it with people like my Mum and Dad who are both in their sixties, so something I am not happy about.

    Human beings are far harder to train.

    The other dog does stealth bomb jumps. She sits and wags waiting for attention, then after a while, runs out of patience and jumps up, back, and pounds people in the stomach with two front feet. There are warning signs, and she'll stop if I say 'NO' but it still happens.

    I'm not giving up on either, but I must say, despite alll the techniques I can think of, it's not going anywhere fast.


  • #16
    littlebug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,832 ✭✭✭littlebug


    delighted/ relieved to see the last few posts :). Yesterday I was seriously questionning myself and a bit :( after this thread but then reminded myself that I've had strangers to me stop their cars to say they've seen me out walking my dog over the past year and what a good job I've done with her as she looked to be such hard work at the start (pats self on back :)).

    That said I'll admit there are days that the dog is just more stubborn than me :rolleyes: but I shouldn't let that happen.
    adrenalinjunkie wrote: »
    I get the impression that Kerry blues are the ultimate challenge

    Ha ha! With hindsight a previously neglected Kerry Blue may not have been the perfect choice for first time dog owner:o but wouldn't be without her now.

    In fairness to any trainers I've seen they all brought something to the table and in some cases it was the setting rather than person or method that was the problem as well as cost issues.


  • #17
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Kash wrote: »
    I agree with all of this, and would add in cooperation from others, and a bit of luck for good measure.

    We have two dogs, and one is very eager to please, loves to learn new things, and is very quick to pick things up. She will do all the basics, and I can trust her to come back immediately if I call. She would never jump up on a random stranger (neither of my dogs would) but on the flipside, if someone she loves calls to the house, she will jump up when saying hello. Never with me (because she gets the 'NO' voice) but with a few of my friends, despite me saying Say No, turn your back & ignore the dog etc. they go "Aw who's happy to see me - wag wag wag". And this positive reinforcement is more fun. So, she also occasionally does it with people like my Mum and Dad who are both in their sixties, so something I am not happy about.

    Human beings are far harder to train.

    The other dog does stealth bomb jumps. She sits and wags waiting for attention, then after a while, runs out of patience and jumps up, back, and pounds people in the stomach with two front feet. There are warning signs, and she'll stop if I say 'NO' but it still happens.

    I'm not giving up on either, but I must say, despite alll the techniques I can think of, it's not going anywhere fast.
    So very true! When a dog understands the rules they obey them. When a human understands the rules they seem to think 'yeah, but that doesn't apply to me!'


  • #18
    tk123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,009 ✭✭✭✭tk123


    Kash wrote: »
    She would never jump up on a random stranger (neither of my dogs would) but on the flipside, if someone she loves calls to the house, she will jump up when saying hello. Never with me (because she gets the 'NO' voice) but with a few of my friends, despite me saying Say No, turn your back & ignore the dog etc. they go "Aw who's happy to see me - wag wag wag". And this positive reinforcement is more fun. So, she also occasionally does it with people like my Mum and Dad who are both in their sixties, so something I am not happy about.

    THIS!!! :mad::( I stupidly taught my guy to high 5 and also to 'speak' (ie bark).. a couple of my dog walking friends rile him up "speak high 5 speak speak" and he's jumping up barking at them - they then treat him and kiss him telling him he's very good etc etc.. Now he does it to them all the time and sometimes to other owners say beside the ones who encourage it - I find it extremely embarassing. Their own dog jumps up on everyone so when I give out to my guy - "oh it's fine we don't mind dogs jumping on us" :(

    One thing I will add - if you dog does jump up trim their nails - I have bruises from smaller dogs jumping up - the bigger dogs seem to disperse the impact with their big paws lol


  • #19
    Cherry Blossom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,009 ✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    tk123 wrote: »
    THIS!!! :mad::( I stupidly taught my guy to high 5 and also to 'speak' (ie bark).. a couple of my dog walking friends rile him up "speak high 5 speak speak" and he's jumping up barking at them

    Show them how to teach their own dogs and the novelty will soon wear off ;)


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