tefl or tesol in china

kraggy · 29-09-2011 1:54am

Thanks guys,

Ok so what is the going rate for an experienced teacher in Shanghai? Is Shanghai a good place to live do you know or are there more happening places to live in in China? How would it compare to Hong Kong?

And how much could one save out that going rate whatever it is?

Mr. Loverman · 29-09-2011 11:31am

kraggy wrote: »

So a teacher could save a good bit. Any idea how much a teacher earns on average? And how much could one realistically save out of that?

In Beijing you'll earn at least EUR 1200 per month. You can save half of that while living something of a hybrid Asian/Western lifestyle.

kraggy wrote: »

And how much would rent for a decent apartment be?

A room somewhere like Dongzhimen (fancy area) will cost about EUR 230 per month.

kraggy wrote: »

Finally, do you enjoy living in Beijing? Which is considered the most happening city in China? Beijing? Shanghai?

I love Beijing.

I don't know where is the most happening city, but for quality of life check out Dalian & Qingdao.

kraggy · 30-09-2011 5:05am

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

In Beijing you'll earn at least EUR 1200 per month. You can save half of that while living something of a hybrid Asian/Western lifestyle.

A room somewhere like Dongzhimen (fancy area) will cost about EUR 230 per month.

I love Beijing.

I don't know where is the most happening city, but for quality of life check out Dalian & Qingdao.

Cool, thanks for that Loverman.

When you say a room, do you mean sharing an aparment with someone else or an actual apartment to yourself? How much would an apartment be?

Mr. Loverman · 30-09-2011 7:26am

I mean sharing an apartment.

I rent a two bedroom apartment for around EUR 530 per month.

17-10-2011 11:03am

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

You don't need a CELTA qualification to get a teaching job in China. IMO it's a waste of money, unless you reckon you would feel more confident in the classroom having an actual qualification. To give you a bit of perspective, a lot of the English teachers here aren't even native English speakers - they're just white!

You don't need a Celta however if you feel that you will be teaching for more than a year, then its definitely worth it. Firstly, there are a number of University positions which are in demand and will require a Celta. The days of just needing a degree are disappearing quite quickly. Secondly, teaching can be very daunting when you have no experience. The Celta includes classroom practice, and will provide valuable tools/games for all ages. I didn't do the Celta and have regretted it since.

Loverman has a very different view of teaching here in China than I do. There are many kinds of teachers here. Some will have zero experience and zero qualifications. They'll get the chain schools and be screwed by the management because they don't have many real options. The people with just a degree can technically get any job, but they'll still be limited to the average positions. The people who have a degree & Celta will get a better position simply because they have more choice.

Any other teaching course other than Celta or Delta is a waste. However I would state that if you like your teaching experience in China, a Celta helps to allow you to get ESL teaching both in Europe, and the ME. Without the Celta, you're stuck with the countries with lower extrance requirements regardless of experience.

kraggy wrote: »

Thanks guys,

Ok so what is the going rate for an experienced teacher in Shanghai? Is Shanghai a good place to live do you know or are there more happening places to live in in China? How would it compare to Hong Kong?

And how much could one save out that going rate whatever it is?

Don't come to China expecting to earn and save much unless you're a qualified teacher capable of teaching something other than English. To put it simply, ESL can provide a great lifestyle but it won't really cover everything especially savings. China has varied costs and cities like Shanghai are really expensive. Sure, you can compare to the Euro and home, but you will be living on what you earn here. Not what you would earn at home...

As for Shanghai and Hong Kong, you've picked the two most expensive cities to live in China. Let me put it this way. The meter for a taxi starts at 6rmb in Xi'an. in Shanghai it starts at 12rmb. Hong Kong depending on the area can be much higher. But the real costs come in when considering Housing. You might get school housing, and you might not. Even when you do, many people go outside rather than accept it, and that is a rather large cost..

IF you're looking to make money and have the qualifications/experience... then Korea and the ME are still the places to go.

17-10-2011 1:27pm

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

In Beijing you'll earn at least EUR 1200 per month. You can save half of that while living something of a hybrid Asian/Western lifestyle.

With experience and qualifications you can earn 12000rmb per month with the free apartment. The plus side is that there are plenty of private schools with reasonable working hours for those that shop around. However for those with no experience, non-related teaching qualifications or such, you might find 12000rmb but you will likely be teaching anything from 20-30 actual teaching hours a week, and another 10-15 hours of mandatory administrative duties (lesson plans, sales, demonstrations, etc). [so you can save by working all the time, and having one day off a week... which you will likely sleep during]

There are great jobs in beijing or Shanghai. Some get lucky, but most people need to have the necessary skills/experience for decent money. Please remember that most foreigners go to the 1st tier cities like Beijing, Shanghai etc, and therefore the market is flooded with foreigners looking for work. Throw in the people that left Japan to come to China for a while, and those cities can be a nightmare to get decent work.

I'd prefer not to paint China as being that easy to succeed in... it can be a very difficult country for some.

I love Beijing.

Me too. Its far better than Shanghai in terms of cost, and the type of people you meet. Also its huge so its hard to really get bored, or to think you've seen all there is to see.

Saying that though, I do like the smaller cities to actually live in.

I don't know where is the most happening city, but for quality of life check out Dalian & Qingdao.

Shenzhen, Xi'an, and Chengdu are also worth looking at. With so many foreigners, there are plenty of western markets/good if you need them. Also plenty of tourists to play with.

Funglegunk · 17-10-2011 3:04pm

Might be of use to some here who are looking to move to China, a useful little primer on China and Chinese culture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvEVEIzmYBc

It's a Chinese production but on-target and evenly handled IMO.

ArphaRima · 18-10-2011 10:42am

That video is bang on.

It will take a good while to practically apply what it talks about, but the principles are all correct. Even more difficult will be to find out how many of their social norms are expected of you.

Mr. Loverman · 18-10-2011 11:13am

Deleted User wrote: »

With experience and qualifications you can earn 12000rmb per month with the free apartment.

In fairness everyone I know in Beijing (without experience or qualifications) are earning over 15k per month for a 20 - 25 hour week. They aren't getting a free apartment though.

If you consider the average person in Beijing earns a lot less than half that, it's quite easy to live on!

The problem is maintaining a western lifestyle -- expensive. But if you can live somewhat like a Chinese person it should be quite easy to save money. (I couldn't live without my western comforts though.)

18-10-2011 2:31pm

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

In fairness everyone I know in Beijing (without experience or qualifications) are earning over 15k per month for a 20 - 25 hour week. They aren't getting a free apartment though.

Whereas I know quite a few people in BJ on 15k or over that are working 20-25 hours teaching and another 14 hours administrative. The admin is a pain.

If you consider the average person in Beijing earns a lot less than half that, it's quite easy to live on!

Foreigners are not Chinese though. Chinese people will drink hot water rather than spend 3rmb on a bottle of iced tea. They'll buy cheaper foods, get the bus/metro rather than a taxi, they'll go to KTV or a club with 8 friends to cut down overall costs, etc. Foreigners will spend a lot more than Chinese people, especially when they first come to China. That amount decreases once you find some regular places to eat or learn some decent mandarin, but we'll always spend more than Chinese people.

Frankly, I know very few foreigners capable of living as frugally as a Chinese person.

The problem is maintaining a western lifestyle -- expensive. But if you can live somewhat like a Chinese person it should be quite easy to save money. (I couldn't live without my western comforts though.)

And thats the kicker. Very few foreigners can resist spending 300rmb in a club simply because they convert the money to euro and compare to home. Or whats 30-40rmb for a taxi that saves an hour on the bus? The problem is that we're not chinese. We're not raised in the same culture and frankly most foreigners are incapable of holding to a budget here. EVEN if you decide to stick to a lower budget, your other foreign friends won't be and that brings on a whole host of problems especially for your own self-respect. Things do get easier when you start dating a chinese person... saving becomes a lot simpler.

I don't bother with much western comforts. I dont go for western food, but I do like to have a coffee in Starbucks twice a week. The main expenditure is the nightlife... even a reasonably cheap night will cost you 100-200 and you're likely to have an initial lifestyle of going clubbing 2-3 times a week. Especially if you're a single guy.

Mr. Loverman · 18-10-2011 2:56pm

Yeah when I get my Costa Americano every day (25 kuai = roughly 3 euro) I have to remind myself that although I am paying Irish prices (expensive) when I convert the price to a Chinese wage it is insanely expensive.

It's weird, getting the coffee is less about the coffee and more about having a short "back home" experience, if you get me.

19-10-2011 1:02pm

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Yeah when I get my Costa Americano every day (25 kuai = roughly 3 euro) I have to remind myself that although I am paying Irish prices (expensive) when I convert the price to a Chinese wage it is insanely expensive.

It's weird, getting the coffee is less about the coffee and more about having a short "back home" experience, if you get me.

I totally understand. As much as I love living here, i do need the occasional break. Starbucks is one of the few pleasures where I can almost completely relax, and read a good book without fear of being interrrupted by someone wanting to practice their English.. I don't think I ever went to Starbucks at home.

Mr. Loverman · 19-10-2011 1:13pm

Funny, in Costa today I was interrrupted by someone wanting to practice their English!

WindSock · 19-10-2011 11:55pm

Do you get much opportunity to travel around the countryside and do some sightseeing, or are the cities just too stimulating to want to leave?

Mr. Loverman · 20-10-2011 5:11am

WindSock wrote: »

Do you get much opportunity to travel around the countryside and do some sightseeing, or are the cities just too stimulating to want to leave?

I haven't done much (any) travelling in China yet, but I just spent two months travelling across Russia and Mongolia so I'm happy to do nothing for a while.

But in theory, the transport links out of Beijing are excellent so I could easily do a trip each weekend.

ArphaRima · 20-10-2011 10:23am

300 3000rmb in a club

FYP

I would regularly spend a few thousand each night I go out. Shanghai is positively expensive. $9USD a beer in quite a few places.
It's actually cheaper to do bottles. 1100RMB for a vodka is far cheaper than drinking individual bottles of beer in the same place. It also gets you a table in most places.
This rings true across much of asia. Many locals will get a table and a bottle, but the bottle will be drank across 2 nights. It's mostly for "face".

Do you get much opportunity to travel around the countryside

Most of the Chinese countryside is an impoverished kip. You cant go far without running out of road/hotels/food etc. Living in a city makes you forget its a developing country. Go any distance and you get reminded quickly. However, any major tourist area has a decent city nearby, and many resort areas are well catered for.
I guess what I'm saying is that any country touring will usually have be a proper excursion rather than a casual daytrip.

Mr. Loverman · 22-10-2011 3:26am

fluffer wrote: »

Most of the Chinese countryside is an impoverished kip. You cant go far without running out of road/hotels/food etc. Living in a city makes you forget its a developing country. Go any distance and you get reminded quickly.

That's not necessarily a bad thing though!

I spent a month in Mongolia (no roads, no electricity, no toilets, no plumbing, no police, no doctors, etc.) and it was an absolutely AMAZING experience.

WindSock · 23-10-2011 11:28pm

Yeah I plan on taking the Russia / Mongolia route too, don't think I would mind the Chinese countryside too much, sure there's plenty of it

What is the story with taking holidays from English teaching?

number10a · 23-10-2011 11:47pm

Wow! This thread is brilliant. So much info! Quick question though that seems more specific to my own situation and that hasn't come up yet.

Could a non-native English speaker still get work in China? I know it would be harder definitely, but would it be possible? My bf is Polish, living in Ireland for over five years, has an Irish accent, speaks like a native but isn't a native and can't be bothered applying for Irish citizenship because it takes two years and costs €950 (so he wouldn't be able to fake Irishness when we'd get to China). How do you think he would fare if we decided to make the move?

Mr. Loverman · 24-10-2011 2:34pm

WindSock wrote: »

What is the story with taking holidays from English teaching?

In China you generally only get the national holidays and perhaps a few other days off. But from what I've seen if you give lots of notice you can take unpaid leave. (Depends on the company I'm sure).

number10a wrote: »

Could a non-native English speaker still get work in China?

The school where my girlfriend works (over 100 teachers) - only a handful of them are native English speakers.

Funglegunk · 24-10-2011 3:38pm

number10a wrote: »

Wow! This thread is brilliant. So much info! Quick question though that seems more specific to my own situation and that hasn't come up yet.

Could a non-native English speaker still get work in China? I know it would be harder definitely, but would it be possible? My bf is Polish, living in Ireland for over five years, has an Irish accent, speaks like a native but isn't a native and can't be bothered applying for Irish citizenship because it takes two years and costs €950 (so he wouldn't be able to fake Irishness when we'd get to China). How do you think he would fare if we decided to make the move?

The advice I'd give would only apply to Dalian, but most schools there will not accept non-native speakers and have a preference for Americans or Canadians (though thats more to do with the wishes of their customers). I know quite a few recruiters there, and if someone is not a citizen of USA, Canada, Ireland, UK, NZ or Austrailia, they are told upfront that they will almost certainly not be granted a visa to work as an English teacher.

So my advice, in the interests of your bf, don't go to Dalian!

luckyjane · 06-03-2012 1:36pm

free accommodation and food. with €250 bonus
it is good for a young man.

Mr. Loverman · 06-03-2012 1:54pm

luckyjane wrote: »

free accommodation and food. with €250 bonus
it is good for a young man.

Yeah but he can do better...

Lanaier · 06-03-2012 5:49pm

Funglegunk wrote: »

The advice I'd give would only apply to Dalian, but most schools there will not accept non-native speakers and have a preference for Americans or Canadians

Well I don't know much about Dalian but I've come across plenty of (white) foreign teachers with terrible English in Beijing, mainly Russians.

I know one girl who just says she's American and the school doesn't know any different, she has the thickest Russian accent you'll ever hear.

luckyjane wrote: »

free accommodation and food. with €250 bonus
it is good for a young man.

No, that deal (€200 a month) is not good in Beijing no matter what way you swing it.

Lanaier · 06-03-2012 6:08pm

Hmm, just going through this thread, I never ended up reading after my initial posts.

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

For example, in college today (in Beijing) I spent 4.5 kuai (45 cent) on lunch. This is neither really cheap nor really expensive. I had rice, tofu & onions.

That is CRAZY cheap for most places in Beijing.
Was this street food?

Mr. Loverman · 06-03-2012 11:45pm

No, normal Chinese restaurant.

Lanaier · 07-03-2012 4:45am

Well I think it's safe to say that is very cheap, you're not likely to find that meal any cheaper in the sticks.

CongressTart · 26-04-2012 10:07pm

What's the best way to go about getting teaching job in China? I have no contacts but plan to perhaps do a Celta course. Would I get contacts through the course and should I avoid agencies altogether?

martin09 · 26-04-2012 10:58pm

Keep it as a general rule of thumb that almost all aspects of Chinese life are corrupt. Do not pay any agency fees or any money upfront. I have experience of only one English language school: its a nationwide company called New Dynamic Institute and I enjoyed working there. You will find conflicting information on almost all schools as experiences differ from person to person and from school to school.

Do remember that it is expensive to live in Chinese cities. While locals will purchase food at market stalls - most foreigners will shop at Walmart, Carrefour etc. These are prohibitively expensive relative to the salary you will get. An apartment may be included in your contract: ensure that you receive a contract.
Try to find employment with a larger company where there are other foreign (English speaking employees). Without Chinese (language) you will feel isolated and lonely.
Please remember that I do not intend to sound negative. Teaching in China can be a wonderful experience but remember to prepare well and research your prospective employers.

caoty · 27-04-2012 7:59am

martin09 wrote: »

Keep it as a general rule of thumb that almost all aspects of Chinese life are corrupt.
......
Please remember that I do not intend to sound negative.

This must be the famous Irish sense of humor.

martin09 · 27-04-2012 8:28am

Perhaps you could make a valid point rather than an obscure remark. The person was asking for information. If you disagree say so: no offence will be taken. Its one fault with 'boards' - some people dont like a factual opinion and they then resort in a vague or personal way . Why not lend the enquirer the value of your wisdom and experience.

The only controversial point I made was regarding corruption in China. Most who have worked there, done business there will attest to the fact that Chinese officials demand money at every turn. Anything can be purchased: marriage licence, visas, work permits etc etc. That is not to offend Chinese people - rather it is to state a fact.

caoty · 27-04-2012 10:13am

I also want to state a fact which is not intended to offend the Irish people either.

martin09 wrote: »

Perhaps you could make a valid point rather than an obscure remark. The person was asking for information. If you disagree say so: no offence will be taken. Its one fault with 'boards' - some people dont like a factual opinion and they then resort in a vague or personal way . Why not lend the enquirer the value of your wisdom and experience.

The only controversial point I made was regarding corruption in China. Most who have worked there, done business there will attest to the fact that Chinese officials demand money at every turn. Anything can be purchased: marriage licence, visas, work permits etc etc. That is not to offend Chinese people - rather it is to state a fact.

blackdog2 · 17-05-2012 3:01am

Well, is it, or is it not corrupt?

Brokentime · 12-07-2012 6:03am

fluffer wrote: »

This rings true across much of asia. Many locals will get a table and a bottle, but the bottle will be drank across 2 nights. It's mostly for "face".

Yes, as in $hitfaced

Truley · 19-11-2012 8:23pm

I have a skype interview tomorrow for a English teaching job in Shenzhen. It's a job teaching business English to adults, offering 6500rmb per month with accommodation. I don't have any teaching experience, just a degree and a TEFL. And while I've toyed with the idea of living and teaching abroad, the China interview was a real spur of the moment thing gotten from a friend who is already living in Shenzhen and loving it. I'm not even sure if I would take the job if offered. Certainly so much of it appeals to me, but I'm so daunted by moving to such a vastly different country. I spent time in Vietnam and Cambodia and absolutely loved it. I wonder how I would cope in China.

Mr. Loverman · 20-11-2012 2:44am

6500 per month is not good for Shenzhen.

Personally I do not like Shenzhen as it is crazy sleazy.

China is an interesting place though. Worth the risk imo.

ArphaRima · 20-11-2012 8:28am

6500rmb is very low pay; you will be the cheap labour. In China of all places..
Without free accommodation you'll be destitute, and you are unlikely to be pleased with accommodation provided.

You say you have a degree and a TEFL. What is the degree in? You might be FAR better off getting a job in a related field.
There are also plenty of jobs available in F&B (Hotels, bars, clubs, cafes, restaurants etc.) if you have any experience. Not that it's my field.

I have also lived in Vietnam, and traveled to Cambodia. I would vote yes for those countries in a second.

I would recommend most people to put China well down their list unless they are looking at executive level pay. (International)

Truley · 20-11-2012 10:55am

Yeah I reckoned 6500 was very low pay, the employers said it's very good but of course they'll say that. I might look elsewhere. Even with accommodation included, I don't want to be completely slumming it. I'm doing that here already

ArphaRima · 20-11-2012 11:28am

I am about to get crucified by the English teachers on here but I have to say that as an expat you should be looking for higher than you are paid for the equivalent job at home. If not then to afford the same standard of living .

Getting a similar standard of living to what you already have will cost multiples of what it costs - in Ireland-.

6500 rmb = 815 euro =1045 usd.

Getting an apartment that you wouldn't immediately walk out of in Ireland will cost half of that.
I'm typing this as I eat a 40rmb sandwich and 30rmb juice in a third tier city.

I live in shanghai and this is cheaper than there.

Yes you can live in a 500rmb apartment and eat street food every day. But you will live a lifestyle lower than the poor in Ireland had 40 years ago.

You are a university educated individual with an unrestricted worldwide passport. Use it wisely.

Mr. Loverman · 22-11-2012 8:46am

In Beijing you start on at least 12,000 RMB.

daithimacgroin · 22-11-2012 9:42am

7 more like it

intellectual dosser · 22-11-2012 9:56am

I spent a few months in Hangzhou - one of the best times of my life - anyone on the thread ever puke their hoop up outside Maya Bar? I made it all too frequent.
I wasnt there to teach but got offered a few odd jobs teaching English, I turned them down - I was lucky enough not to need them at the time.

Mr. Loverman · 22-11-2012 10:38am

daithimacgroin wrote: »

7 more like it

Are you replying to me?

If so, everyone I know started on at least 12k. Some on 15k - 20k.

Anyone starting on less money is not negotiating properly.

daithimacgroin · 22-11-2012 11:19am

that may be all the people u know,

but saying 12,000rmb is the average starting salary for esl in beijing is a gross misstatement.

in a training center, it very well may be, but that figure would not include an apartment.

for a college, the average starting salary is closer to 7.

and don't give me that guff about negotiation, most schools will rather find someone who'll accept their offer than deal with a tough negotiator, there is no lack of supply of english-speaking foreigners in china.

if anyone is considering China, I'd say think again, because ESL wages have in no way kept up with inflation in the last 3 years especially

Mr. Loverman · 22-11-2012 11:53am

Of course I am excluding accommodation. Any job that offers you accommodation is offering you a bad deal! Teaching in China 101.

12k minimum in Beijing without accommodation. Anything less and you are not selling yourself properly.

daithimacgroin · 22-11-2012 12:04pm

dunno about that, offered accommodation is usually less stressful, when anything breaks down, u just put pressure on your school to fix it, rather than having to pay for some tradesman to come over, and u dont have to worry about bills etc

Mr. Loverman · 22-11-2012 12:06pm

I agree it is useful if you are coming to China on your own, don't know Chinese, etc.

I came here, went to thebeijinger.com and found an apartment, and asked on thebeijinger.com how do I pay my bills etc. You can pay most of the bills at an ATM machine!

My friend arrived here and did the same. With no teaching experience she started on 15k (12k + bonus I believe). After a year is on 20k.

The thing is the schools know they are dealing with amateurs (sorry, don't know what other word to use) when the person asks for accommodation, so they know they can low ball them.

R.D. aka MR.D · 21-12-2012 4:01am

Hi all!

I'm currently in Korea. My boyfriend (American) and I want to go to China.

He has over 2 years teaching experience and I will have just under 2 years and a CELTA.

I obviously know it is going to be a step down in terms of money and comfort from Korea but I want to make sure I end up in a decent place.

What is the best way to start my search?

I've dealt with my fair share of shady recruiters here so I assume there are an equal amount in China. Has anyone got any tips on what to look out for?

Also, is it realistic to think that I can organise everything I need to get to China without returning to Ireland?

Mr. Loverman · 21-12-2012 4:59am

Pick a city and then use that cities expat website, e.g. thebeijinger.com

Some schools have more "guanxi" than other schools, so you may or may not have to go back to Ireland for your visa. It depends on the school. If you're lucky a trip to Hong Kong is all it'll take.

Have you been to China before? It's a big step down in terms of comfort.

R.D. aka MR.D · 21-12-2012 5:08am

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Pick a city and then use that cities expat website, e.g. thebeijinger.com

Some schools have more "guanxi" than other schools, so you may or may not have to go back to Ireland for your visa. It depends on the school. If you're lucky a trip to Hong Kong is all it'll take.

Have you been to China before? It's a big step down in terms of comfort.

No, haven't been to China. I have lived in South America before so not afraid of the challenge.
Korea is easier to live in than Ireland most of the time. It's really great so don't get me wrong but a tad bland.

My boyfriend is thinking Shanghai but would Bejing be more exciting/less expensive?

tefl or tesol in china

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