Huge hike in road tax as motor cash dries up

Sesshoumaru · 05-03-2012 04:11PM

creedp wrote: »

I think overall taxation policy needs to be taken into a/c not just Motor Tax. At present EV cars (and they are cars so a luxury item in Irish tax policy) don't pay any tax - no VRT, no road tax and no fuel tax, that is not sustainable in the long term in my view. The reality is taxing fuel for cars has little to do with peak oil or environmental issues but all to do with the old reliables, i.e. a soft touch for tax revenues. No matter what you say about the greeness of EV's, they are still cars and will be taxed as such. I keep going back to the same issue - do EV's use the road network? If so they should contribute to roads upkeep as well as contributing to the the general coffers as an old reliable. It difficult to support an argument which says that one type of car should be taxed out of existance becasue it has petrol/diesel in its tank while another has electricity in its batteries that has predominantly been generated by gas/oil/coal. Whatever about the future ...

Why are you quoting me? Is there someone else on this thread that is talking about green issues?

You are also factually incorrect. VAT is charged on EV's, they are only exempt from VRT. They also pay road tax, tax band A last year. I do see for 2012 they have a specific tax band for EV's on the www.motortax.ie website, which is equivalent to tax band A currently. Electricity is also not tax free, VAT is charged on electricity.

Just to be clear, I have not spoken about peak oil or environmental issues or the greenness of EV's. Please don't quote me when you are not even responding to my points! I spoke about diversifying our sources of energy for transportation. Diesel and Petrol depend 100% on Oil. EV's can be powered by Nuclear, Wind, Coal, Solar, Gas, Tidal & Oil just to name a few. It's common business sense to have more than one supplier for any goods or services!

marcindd · 05-03-2012 04:18PM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

. Diesel and Petrol depend 100% on Oil.

I'd wish this would be true, but unfortunately no fuel is bio-fuel free in Ireland any more.

EV vehicles will get more popular, but we need to wait for things like this:
http://www.almaden.ibm.com/st/smarter_planet/battery/

creedp · 05-03-2012 04:22PM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Why are you quoting me? Is there someone else on this thread that is talking about green issues?

You are also factually incorrect. VAT is charged on EV's, they are only exempt from VRT. They also pay road tax, tax band A last year. I do see for 2012 they have a specific tax band for EV's on the www.motortax.ie website, which is equivalent to tax band A currently. Electricity is also not tax free, VAT is charged on electricity.

Just to be clear, I have not spoken about peak oil or environmental issues or the greenness of EV's. Please don't quote me when you are not even responding to my points! I spoke about diversifying our sources of energy for transportation. Diesel and Petrol depend 100% on Oil. EV's can be powered by Nuclear, Wind, Coal, Solar, Gas, Tidal & Oil just to name a few. It's common business sense to have more than one supplier for any goods or services!

I must have misinterpreted you. I thought you were of the view that EV's are green/Low Co2 -aren't they synonomous in this country? Mea Culpa! As you say yourself - no VRT and no fuel duty so treated differently to ICE's. And I agree it is possible to charge your car with wind and sun but in reality in this little country for the foreseeable future gas/oil is how the majority of EV's will run. So CO2 at the stack and not the exhaust for EV's.

Anyway I didn't know a persons couldn't be quoted unless the topic of the contribution exactly matched the quote. Will have to be more careful.

Sesshoumaru · 05-03-2012 04:23PM

marcindd wrote: »

I'd wish this would be true, but unfortunately no fuel is bio-fuel free in Ireland any more.

EV vehicles will get more popular, but we need to wait for things like this:
http://www.almaden.ibm.com/st/smarter_planet/battery/

You got me there, I always fill my Ducati up with Maxol petrol as it has 5% ethanol. Helps it run better through the winter

No one that I know of has seriously suggested we can switch over in any meaningful way to bio-fuel. There is only so much arable land on planet and we have a rapidly growing population. I don't see how we could feed that growing population and still make a dent on Oil consumption through the use of bio-fuel without affecting food production.

Leonard Hofstadter · 05-03-2012 04:39PM

Bringing back the idea of taxing cars on engine size is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard, not only because in real life larger engines are more likely to achieve their claimed mpg than smaller engined models (up to a point, obviously) and therefore are better for the environment (again, up to a point).

It is hard enough to be a car enthusiast in this country without bringing back the engine size thing into it again. The only thing you can realistically buy now is some bland, shapeless lump of metal with a small capacity diesel that if you're not careful and don't drive it the way it was intended will give you expensive DMF, DPF and EGR valve trouble.

I have always been a supporter of this Government (and unlike some of the fantasy crap that has been spouted out in this thread about defaulting and burning bondholders blah blah blah, I live in the real world) but if they go ahead with this it will really p!$$ me off:(!

It is also incredibly stupid for another reason - engines are getting smaller, in a few years time there won't be a lot of engines greater than two litres anyway - the new generation of engines are so powerful (at least when new and before they go wrong) there is no longer a need for such large engines - I mean look at the new Ford 1.0 Ecoboost - already it is as powerful as a non turbo 1.6 petrol made by the same company, so it will have plenty of power for anything up to a Focus so instead of people driving 1.6 litre engines in cars like the Focus they'll soon be driving cars of that size with 1.0 engines, then there is the 1.6 Ecoboost which can produce up to 180 bhp, which is more than a V6 Mondeo of only 10 years ago produced so again we're seeing a situation where a 1.8 or a 2.0 was the norm in this class but soon a 1.6 will be looking like it's a fairly large engine, so it's just daft beyond belief!

Max Power1 · 05-03-2012 04:42PM

captainspeed wrote: »

we're seeing a situation where a 1.8 or a 2.0 was the norm in this class but soon a 1.6 will be looking like it's a fairly large engine, so it's just daft beyond belief!

That is the case for a lot of the irish motoring sheeple already

Sesshoumaru · 05-03-2012 04:53PM

creedp wrote: »

I must have misinterpreted you. I thought you were of the view that EV's are green/Low Co2 -aren't they synonomous in this country? Mea Culpa! As you say yourself - no VRT and no fuel duty so treated differently to ICE's. And I agree it is possible to charge your car with wind and sun but in reality in this little country for the foreseeable future gas/oil is how the majority of EV's will run. So CO2 at the stack and not the exhaust for EV's.

Anyway I didn't know a persons couldn't be quoted unless the topic of the contribution exactly matched the quote. Will have to be more careful.

Yes treated differently as it is EU & national policy to encourage their uptake. But you were wrong on Motor Tax, VAT on the purchase of an EV and VAT on fuel (electricity). You are correct to say that the well to wheel efficiency of EV's is greater than that of ICE.

http://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_wtw.pdf

In terms of what I find important about encouraging EV's: Not funding oil rich Islamic fundamentalist states. Switching to a transportation technology that can be powered through indigenous power sources (renewable, nuclear or perhaps in future gas). So many other points to make, but I don't want to derail this discussion on motor tax. Suffice to say I am not a green hippy and I don't feel after doing 21k kilometers in my Leaf since April 2011, that EV's need to be justified on environmental grounds.

Finally you should be more careful who you quote. By quoting me and making green arguments you are attributing a green agenda to me, one that I don't have and simply have not spoken about in this thread.

Eric Cartman · 05-03-2012 04:58PM

captainspeed wrote: »

but soon a 1.6 will be looking like it's a fairly large engine, so it's just daft beyond belief!

this sentence makes me sad, because I know its probably true.

But im glad to see a lot of 4x4 manufacturers (nissan, VW, LR) are starting to embrace V6 diesels. I might have a few years left living in 3L + land

marcindd · 05-03-2012 05:01PM

captainspeed wrote: »

I mean look at the new Ford 1.0 Ecoboost - already it is as powerful as a non turbo 1.6 petrol made by the same company, so it will have plenty of power for anything up to a Focus so instead of people driving 1.6 litre engines in cars like the Focus they'll soon be driving cars of that size with 1.0 engines, then there is the 1.6 Ecoboost which can produce up to 180 bhp, which is more than a V6 Mondeo of only 10 years ago produced so again we're seeing a situation where a 1.8 or a 2.0 was the norm in this class but soon a 1.6 will be looking like it's a fairly large engine, so it's just daft beyond belief!

the fact is you can get incredible amount of HP from any given CC with big enough turbo and compression, but this doesn't mean the car will be more economical than it's bigger engined brother. It may be even worse, as this extra HP pulled of the small engine affects it's lifetime (someone noticed before that a major part in any vehicles lifetime co2 emission comes from the manufacture process).

creedp · 05-03-2012 05:01PM

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Yes treated differently as it is EU & national policy to encourage their uptake. But you were wrong on Motor Tax, VAT on the purchase of an EV and VAT on fuel (electricity). You are correct to say that the well to wheel efficiency of EV's is greater than that of ICE.

http://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_wtw.pdf

In terms of what I find important about encouraging EV's: Not funding oil rich Islamic fundamentalist states. Switching to a transportation technology that can be powered through indigenous power sources (renewable, nuclear or perhaps in future gas). So many other points to make, but I don't want to derail this discussion on motor tax. Suffice to say I am not a green hippy and I don't feel after doing 21k kilometers in my Leaf since April 2011, that EV's need to be justified on environmental grounds.

Finally you should be more careful who you quote. By quoting me and making green arguments you are attributing a green agenda to me, one that I don't have and simply have not spoken about in this thread.

I won't go on any more about this but the basis on which you are getting VRT free, low Motor Tax and duty free fuel that is generated by oil/gas/coal in this country is that you are running a low Co2 producing car. That the basis on which VRT and motor tax is currently set and the reason why motor fuel has to bear such a extraordinary amount of so-called carbon taxes. I don't hear any other argument for how these taxes are currently set. So in my little head low CO2 = green. You can interpret it differently if it suits you better.

After this, for me anyway, back to motor tax discussion

walus · 05-03-2012 05:01PM

captainspeed wrote: »

Bringing back the idea of taxing cars on engine size is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard, not only because in real life larger engines are more likely to achieve their claimed mpg than smaller engined models (up to a point, obviously) and therefore are better for the environment (again, up to a point).

It is hard enough to be a car enthusiast in this country without bringing back the engine size thing into it again. The only thing you can realistically buy now is some bland, shapeless lump of metal with a small capacity diesel that if you're not careful and don't drive it the way it was intended will give you expensive DMF, DPF and EGR valve trouble.

I have always been a supporter of this Government (and unlike some of the fantasy crap that has been spouted out in this thread about defaulting and burning bondholders blah blah blah, I live in the real world) but if they go ahead with this it will really p!$$ me off:(!

It is also incredibly stupid for another reason - engines are getting smaller, in a few years time there won't be a lot of engines greater than two litres anyway - the new generation of engines are so powerful (at least when new and before they go wrong) there is no longer a need for such large engines - I mean look at the new Ford 1.0 Ecoboost - already it is as powerful as a non turbo 1.6 petrol made by the same company, so it will have plenty of power for anything up to a Focus so instead of people driving 1.6 litre engines in cars like the Focus they'll soon be driving cars of that size with 1.0 engines, then there is the 1.6 Ecoboost which can produce up to 180 bhp, which is more than a V6 Mondeo of only 10 years ago produced so again we're seeing a situation where a 1.8 or a 2.0 was the norm in this class but soon a 1.6 will be looking like it's a fairly large engine, so it's just daft beyond belief!

I could not agree more. The government put a policy in place to make people drive the same car - eco friendly diesel. The only thing is that it had nothing to do with environment and those who assume the road tax should reflect that are wrong, because it was never about the environment. The eco friendliness thing was another way of selling new cars and even at that was not right. There have been studies done on the general quality of air in the cities across the world and they discovered that the air is just as bad as it was 10 years ago. The conclusion of the research was that with more and more diesel cars sold these days, they contribution to air pollution is much greater than their petrol equivalents. The low emission can not be judged only on the CO2 output.

05-03-2012 05:08PM

captainspeed wrote: »

................. but soon a 1.6 will be looking like it's a fairly large engine, so it's just daft beyond belief!

A couple of short decades ago the like of the Sierra and Ascona were available with 1.3s, a 1.6 Sierra, Ascona or Carina were big cars with biggish engines here and even in the UK where the average Joe with a wife and two kids had a Kadett or an Escort, the next size up were for reps and office folk who were on the big money.

marcindd · 05-03-2012 05:09PM

and I just wonder, why is the government against putting motor tax into fuel instead? so much more fair, so much less hassle, so much less bureaucracy.

Just think how much cost getting 50 eur 3 months tax for eg yaris, several of reminding mails sent (60cent each + printing and paper?) then discs which aren't free to make, then the whole system, gards do check cars for tax instead of tracking criminals.

I don't know, but it makes much more sense to charge the tax at the pump stations instead and that seems fair as well, if you use roads more you pay more if you don't use roads but just OWN a vehicle why should you pay the ROAD tax?

taxidude1306 · 05-03-2012 05:09PM

This has to be a joke, or maybe not, considering the tosspots running this country.

Max Power1 · 05-03-2012 05:12PM

marcindd wrote: »

if you don't use roads but just OWN a vehicle why should you pay the ROAD tax?

Oh no you didnt.................

Sesshoumaru · 05-03-2012 05:18PM

creedp wrote: »

I won't go on any more about this but the basis on which you are getting VRT free, low Motor Tax and duty free fuel that is generated by oil/gas/coal in this country is that you are running a low Co2 producing car. That the basis on which VRT and motor tax is currently set and the reason why motor fuel has to bear such a extraordinary amount of so-called carbon taxes. I don't hear any other argument for how these taxes are currently set. So in my little head low CO2 = green. You can interpret it differently if it suits you better.

After this, for me anyway, back to motor tax discussion

Yes this is all relevant to motor tax, as motor tax has been and continues to be used as an instrument of government policy.

Low CO2 = Low fuel consumption - My preferred choice, but they mean the same as far as I am concerned. But lets be fair here, people buying low emission cars are doing so because they have lower tax AND lower fuel consumption. Lower CO2 emissions just happens to be the chosen metric to classify those low fuel consumption cars.

I believe in using motor tax as an instrument to move us away from dependency on only one energy source for transportation in this country. With only minor (and unsustainable) help from bio-fuels, Petrol and Diesel cars are almost entirely dependent on an unstable energy source: Oil. That doesn't mean I agree with whatever the government comes out with. It just means generally speaking I would be supportive of a tax regime that encourages EV uptake. Ultimately though events far away from our shores, Persian Gulf, increasing car ownership in SE Asia etc will mean we move to EV anyway.

Voodoomelon · 05-03-2012 05:26PM

creedp wrote: »

I think there are 2 issues here: 1. the Govt need revenue so everyone will have to pay more tax, those in the 520D and those in the humble Fords, Toyota's etc. 2. I don't have a problem with people driving luxury cars having the same tax as equivalent 'humble cars' but I think is mad when an 08 car pays €200 but the equivalent 07 car pays €1,000+. That doesn't stack up under any argument, including your own.

You picked me up wrong, my point was in relation to the constant demonising by the government and media of anything over 2 litres, regardless of how old it is and how few miles the driver may do.

I completely agree the C02 rates need to be rocketed to the moon to come in line with the older CC system. And I completely agree that running a CC based system, and then a C02 based system side by side is a lot of shíte. Mainly due to the fact that the C02 based system never had anything to do with the environment. The system should be changed to either:

Tax on fuel.
Flat tax rate for everyone

Bohrio · 05-03-2012 05:42PM

What I still dont understand is why is it so expensive to begin with.

For example, in Spain, my 2.0 '00 Imprezza cost 140 euro per year. Here, its around 660 euro.

And the difference is not in petrol either, 1.43 euro for 95 RON, 1.53 for 98 RON and 1.3 for Diesel..

And dont get me started with VRT and other taxes... and insurance.

how did we end up like this?

AltAccount · 05-03-2012 05:45PM

I just can't wait to see whether they'll have the guts to apply this change retrospectively or if they'll apply it to all cars reg'd after X date.

Imagine that, 3 parallel tax systems... :rolleyes:

gerryo777 · 05-03-2012 06:02PM

spockety wrote: »

Has anyone official ever spoken about whether or not a fuel/usage based system has even been considered, or why it would be knocked back?

It seems simple to me.

€ Revenue from Tax in 2008 = X
Number of litres of fuel sold in 2011 = Y
Cost of administering current motor tax regime = Z

(X-Z*100)/Y = tax in cent per litre required to make desired tax take

Revisit every budget based on consumption in the previous year.

Jesus, don't be giving them more ideas, they'll probably add this to the existing road tax to 'discourage excessive fuel wastage' and call it a green initiative!!!
And when they do, we'll come looking for you spockety:D

05-03-2012 06:10PM

AltAccount wrote: »

I just can't wait to see whether they'll have the guts to apply this change retrospectively or if they'll apply it to all cars reg'd after X date.

Imagine that, 3 parallel tax systems... :rolleyes:

I would think it will apply retrospectively.

AltAccount · 05-03-2012 06:25PM

It didn't last time

Professey Chin · 05-03-2012 06:32PM

RoverJames wrote: »

I would think it will apply retrospectively.

Thatd be sensible though......

Triangle · 05-03-2012 06:36PM

spockety wrote: »

Has anyone official ever spoken about whether or not a fuel/usage based system has even been considered, or why it would be knocked back?
It seems simple to me.
€ Revenue from Tax in 2008 = X
Number of litres of fuel sold in 2011 = Y
Cost of administering current motor tax regime = Z
(X-Z*100)/Y = tax in cent per litre required to make desired tax take
Revisit every budget based on consumption in the previous year.

I'd imagine a tax that's dependent on the amount of fuel sold might vary alot. Similar to Stamp Duty. Wheras a tax on property doesn't vary much (aka Road Tax)

Just one possible reason, don't think i did any analysis on this though

dahamsta · 05-03-2012 06:50PM

Since they're talking about changing a broken system to an even more complex system, and most seem to agree that fuel tax as an alternative is the way to go, perhaps someone could start a thread here in the Motors forum to develop a policy for submission and lobbying, and blow this nonsense out of the water before they can implement it? Someone more knowledgeable than me, I mean.

No reason why parallel threads couldn't run in Roads, Politics, Economics, etc, too, get other perspectives. I realise that developing a coherent policy in this way would be difficult, but I don't think it would be impossible.

05-03-2012 07:17PM

We new this would happen when the co2 tax came in.

Doesn't matter if you buy electric, they will still screw you when they become more popular.

They reduced v.r.t too don't forget so it's inevitable that that will rise on these cars too.

Is anyone really surprised ? Next comes more tolls!

Everyone that can is better off to get out of Ireland, it will never be any different and will get a lot worse!

It's amazing how the government can inflict such unfair taxes while their cars and fuel is paid by the tax payer, they don't know what it's like to struggle with bills and to pay such a high price to drive to work every day to bail out the banks!

Bullseye1 · 05-03-2012 07:21PM

If cars ran on fresh air you can be sure the government would find a way to charge you. All this talk of losing money on motor tax but what about the money they are taking in on the fuel? Bloodly price of a litre petrol/diesel has doubled in less than two years.

bazzachazza · 05-03-2012 07:53PM

RoverJames wrote: »

I would think it will apply retrospectively.

:rolleyes:

Good luck with that.

No chance of that happening. I imagine serious legal issues would arise. It's not like car owners were dodging tax. Imagine increasing income taxes and saying we are going to want it backdated 4 years now cough up. None of their new taxes have been backdated so why start now.

They will probably just get rid of the emissions based system and go back to the old system and as a result people will stop buying cars as the prices will rocket again and VRT intake will plummet.

05-03-2012 07:57PM

bazzachazza wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Good luck with that.

No chance of that happening. I imagine serious legal issues would arise. It's not like car owners were dodging tax. Imagine increasing income taxes and saying we are going to want it backdated 4 years now cough up. None of their new taxes have been backdated so why start now.

They will probably just get rid of the emissions based system and go back to the old system and as a result people will stop buying cars as the prices will rocket again and VRT intake will plummet.

... by retrospectively I mean it will apply to 2008 on cars not 2013 on cars. I'm surprised that you actually thought what you did think. Cheers for the rolly eyes though.
The emissions system wasn't applied retrospectively, I think this measure will be, hence all the commotion in the media.

Voodoomelon · 05-03-2012 08:07PM

"Finance Minister Michael Noonan and Environment Minister Phil Hogan have agreed radical change is necessary to reverse plummeting tax revenues, with one possibility being to link vehicle size and emissions for the first time.

Vehicles might range from small (Ford Fiesta), family (Toyota Avensis), to executive (Range Rover), and each group would pay different tax rates based on a combination of emissions and engine size."

Is this the ramblings of The Independant or are they actually contemplating doing this?

Huge hike in road tax as motor cash dries up

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