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Gardaí criticised over Ian Bailey investigation

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Comments

  • #62
    berrypendel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 365 ✭✭berrypendel


    Biggins wrote: »
    I was listening to a lengthy discussion last night on this matter - and an interview with Bailey.
    It sounds like (if the DPP is to be believed - and I have no reason not to) that there was some right bullying going on for certain by particular investigators.

    At least 15 points where very wrong things was done. Actual laws being broken by the Gardi investigating.
    This will mean a big payout eventually - BUT - it will be interesting to see if the government will investigate this matter and by what method, or as some suspect, they will hold a limited investigation and the culprits that broke the laws themselves getting off in time.

    Meanwhile the French in their arrogance, are going ahead it appears to try and hold a trial for the man accused by them, in his absence, even though as we now know, the evidence was 'cooked'* and/or invented!

    * Example:
    One woman gave a statement that she saw a THIN man, 5 foot 2 crossing a bridge shortly after the murder.
    She was forced to change her statement to say it was in fact Bailey and that the man was much higher in height.
    (Bailey was at the time, having breakfast at home with friends! Bailey is much bigger and much more well built. The phrase "built like a schithouse" comes to mind.)
    They showed her a video of Bailey at one stage and told her, to tell them that it was him she saw!

    What was done by investigating officers - who according to the DPP, CLEARLY broke the law a good few times, repeatedly was and still is shocking.
    what interview said that? was not the VB one was it? And where did the suggestion of the police having froze the body come from?


  • #63
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    berrypendel wrote: »
    ok i stand over my point i know one who did. In one of the tabloids today there is a story that says a suspect killed himself. Thinks its mirror, anyone see it

    Not seen it but apparently the Gardi did indeed (and might still) have other suspects.
    They quickly forgot about them though in their rush to just get one man.

    Again, I do not know if he is guilty or not - but if he was, by god they have screwed up any case against him they now might even try and take in the future.

    What an almighty mess!


  • #64
    berrypendel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 365 ✭✭berrypendel


    Biggins wrote: »
    Not seen it but apparently the Gardi did indeed (and might still) have other suspects.
    They quickly forgot about them though in their rush to just get one man.

    Again, I do not know if he is guilty or not - but if he was, by god they have screwed up any case against him they now might even try and take in the future.

    What an almighty mess!
    they behaved disrgacefully


  • #65
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    berrypendel wrote: »
    they behaved disrgacefully

    No debate there.

    What's worse is that the French might still use their very tainted evidence!
    More stupid daftness!

    See: http://www.thejournal.ie/ian-baileys-lawyer-french-authorities-intend-to-continue-with-process-373138-Mar2012/
    A LAYWER FOR Ian Bailey believes that French authorities intend to continue with their investigation into his client despite the Supreme Court ruling that he should not be extradited to France for questioning about the murder of Sophie Toscan du Plantier.

    Speaking to RTÉ One Radio this afternoon, Frank Buttimer said that there is currently an application by French authorities to seek further access to Garda files in relation to Mr Bailey. Proceedings in that case will be heard in Dublin this week, he said.
    “The French don’t care about the Irish prosecutorial and judicial systems,” said Buttimer.

    “They intend to try Ian Bailey in his absence. It is immaterial to them if he was or was not to be extradited. They intended to continue with this.”
    In France, you can be tried for the gravest of crimes in your absence.
    Bailey, a former journalist, has denied any involvement in the murder of Toscan du Plantier, who was found dead near her holiday home in Schull, in West Cork, more than 15 years ago.

    French authorities have sought his extradition for questioning – and not prosecution – so the Supreme Court upheld Bailey’s appeal. A Court shall refuse to surrender a person if it is satisfied that a decision has not been made to charge the person and, in Bailey’s case, try him for the offence of murder of Mme Toscan du Plantier.
    Buttimer described the current situation as a “farcical state of affairs”. He told the This Week programme that Bailey is “completely innocent” and a “victim of alleged misbehaviour”.
    There is no evidence against him. Meanwhile, in France they seek to rely on tainted evidence. Probably, at the end of the day, they will seek to extradite him if and when he is found guilty of the crime.
    The question of a tainted Garda investigation and process was raised in the High Court by Bailey’s lawyers. They maintained that the French warrant was invalid because it contained alleged evidence that was allegedly obtained improperly, was corrupt and tainted.

    The information about the questionable Garda investigation came to light after the Director of Public Prosecutions sent Buttimer what he calls a “44-page devastation” of the evidence against his client.

    That documentation from the DPP only emerged after that court had ruled on Bailey’s extradition and just prior to the Supreme Court’s overturning of that judgement.
    “It came to me in unprecedented circumstances and I could not believe what I was reading,” he said. “I had not expected it and I had no entitlement in law to receive it.”

    The retired DPP Eamon Barnes took the view that in the interest of justice, certain material should be sent to us, explained the solicitor.
    “This case is totally unprecedented and raises huge questions about our system of justice,” concluded Buttimer.


  • #66
    alphabeat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 514 ✭✭✭alphabeat


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    No he's still guilty imo. The Garda just made a complete bollox of it from start to finish.

    rubbish , its more likely someone from her environment / circle either french , or irish , and VERY well connected -killed her .

    second likely is an oppurtunistic thief or thug.


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  • #67
    Rhys Essien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,029 ✭✭✭Rhys Essien


    alphabeat wrote: »
    rubbish , its more likely someone from her environment / circle either french , or irish , and VERY well connected -killed her .

    second likely is an oppurtunistic thief or thug.

    Imagine if the guards(a guard) themselves were involved in her murder and needed to frame some poor old innocent fast.

    Good looking woman living on her own in remote area dishes someones advances,who are after getting fond of her.

    Now that would be mad.


  • #68
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    I don't think anyone would deny this whole thing was a monumental cock-up.

    But lets not reduce ourselves to the level of childish, mindless Garda bashing and holding Ian Bailey up as a hero.

    Can we please remember and accept that just because the case was shoddy does not mean he is innocent. I can't imagine that the Gardai would have gone as far as they did trying to prove him guilty if they didn't, in some way, really believe that he was.

    Nor does this case reflect on An Garda Siochana as a whole, however much you might like it to.

    This whole affair may not be, and likely is not, as simple as Ian Bailey = Good, Gardai= Bad.


  • #69
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I don't think anyone would deny this whole thing was a monumental cock-up.

    But lets not reduce ourselves to the level of childish, mindless Garda bashing and holding Ian Bailey up as a hero.

    Can we please remember and accept that just because the case was shoddy does not mean he is innocent. I can't imagine that the Gardai would have gone as far as they did trying to prove him guilty if they didn't, in some way, really believe that he was.

    Nor does this case reflect on An Garda Siochana as a whole, however much you might like it to.

    This whole affair may not be, and likely is not, as simple as Ian Bailey = Good, Gardai= Bad.
    Unreal!
    Not one, but two Directors of Public prosecutions felt he had no case to answer. The man is entitled to an unqualified presumption of innocence.
    How would like to be targetted by an incompetant and corrupt police force!
    in this case it is as simple as Ian Bailey = Victim, An Garda Siochana= Perpetrators


  • #70
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    lividduck wrote: »
    Unreal!
    Not one, but two Directors of Public prosecutions felt he had no case to answer. The man is entitled to an unqualified presumption of innocence.
    How would like to be targetted by an incompetant and corrupt police force!
    in this case it is as simple as Ian Bailey = Victim, An Garda Siochana= Perpetrators

    Nothing is ever that simple in Criminal cases, or any kind of court case. There is always more than side to the story.

    Leave the self righteous outrage and Garda hating out of it and look at the case objectively.

    I'm not saying this wasn't a momunmental mess but it doesn't mean the Gardai were wrong.


  • #71
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    lividduck wrote: »
    ...How would like to be targetted by an incompetant and corrupt police force!
    in this case it is as simple as Ian Bailey = Victim, An Garda Siochana= Perpetrators

    To be absolutely fair, I would say "some" within An Garda Siochana and those that did the investigating.
    I am sure there is many within An Garda Siochana that are just as appalled at the actions of their fellow numbers.
    ...If only for the fact that their bad actions reflect on the organisation as a whole and those innocent under its title.


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  • #72
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I don't think anyone would deny this whole thing was a monumental cock-up.

    But lets not reduce ourselves to the level of childish, mindless Garda bashing and holding Ian Bailey up as a hero.

    Can we please remember and accept that just because the case was shoddy does not mean he is innocent. I can't imagine that the Gardai would have gone as far as they did trying to prove him guilty if they didn't, in some way, really believe that he was.

    Nor does this case reflect on An Garda Siochana as a whole, however much you might like it to.

    This whole affair may not be, and likely is not, as simple as Ian Bailey = Good, Gardai= Bad.

    The problem is that Bailey has been branded a murderer in the press for the last 15 odd years, he can never get a fair trial here even if they try and prosecute again. Added to this the outrageous corruption and witness tampering carried out by the gardai in this case.


  • #73
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    The problem is that Bailey has been branded a murderer in the press for the last 15 odd years, he can never get a fair trial here even if they try and prosecute again. Added to this the outrageous corruption and witness tampering carried out by the gardai in this case.

    Once again I do not, repeat do not, disagree this whole affair was a mess. I really wish people would read my posts properly.

    I just think people are taking too simplistic an approach to it. The Gardai went about the case in the worst way but that does not mean an innocent man has been unfairly tarnished.

    Again I don't believe the Gardai would have pursued Bailey as they did if they really didn't think he was guilty.


  • #74
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Nothing is ever that simple in Criminal cases, or any kind of court case. There is always more than side to the story.

    Leave the self righteous outrage and Garda hating out of it and look at the case objectively.

    I'm not saying this wasn't a momunmental mess but it doesn't mean the Gardai were wrong.
    Which part of two DPPS saying they WERE wrong dont you get, even the Supreme Court commented on the DPP files in a very negative way.
    THE GAURDS WERE WRONG, get over it, they are oftenn wrong. They were wrong in Donegal (see Tribunal of Inquirey), they were wrong in Waterford (beat the crap out of some poor guy for no reason), they were wrong to Shoot Brian Carthy dead in Abbeylara, they were wrong to kill one of their own members by shooting him in the back in Abbeyleix (they thought he was an unarmed bank robber and nobody would care).
    I will take the word of two directors of public prosecutions of the Garda any day.


  • #75
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Just one point I think further the public should consider.
    The DPP asked for the matter to be looked into - who did the actual investigation?
    Was it the Gardi further or even partly that looked into the actions of their fellow officers?
    If so, the good ones did indeed expose the bad ones, found out what they did and reported this back to the DPP so he could formulate his eventual report.
    (And by god, I'm sure that further investigation was not easy to say the least!)

    My point is that there still is some very good Gardi out there - they just seem to be forgotten about in this complete mess.


  • #76
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    Biggins wrote: »
    To be absolutely fair, I would say "some" within An Garda Siochana and those that did the investigating.
    I am sure there is many within An Garda Siochana that are just as appalled at the actions of their fellow numbers.
    ...If only for the fact that their bad actions reflect on the organisation as a whole and those innocent under its title.
    fair comment as ever young Biggins, point taken.


  • #77
    SeaFields
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,551 ✭✭✭SeaFields


    Biggins wrote: »
    My point is that there still is some very good Gardi out there - they just seem to be forgotten about in this complete mess.

    What is so distressing is that there is a woman in her grave and no one has been brought to justice over it. With all the media scrambling over this story in the last few days, she is the one who it seems is being forgotten about.


  • #78
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 15,814 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    While the investigating officers should be ashamed of themselves and stripped of their jobs and any entitlements it's a sad fact that all around the world if the police believe they have their suspect they ignore all other avenues in order to make the case against their suspect.


  • #79
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    lividduck wrote: »
    Which part of two DPPS saying they WERE wrong dont you get, even the Supreme Court commented on the DPP files in a very negative way.
    THE GAURDS WERE WRONG, get over it, they are oftenn wrong. They were wrong in Donegal (see Tribunal of Inquirey), they were wrong in Waterford (beat the crap out of some poor guy for no reason), they were wrong to Shoot Brian Carthy dead in Abbeylara, they were wrong to kill one of their own members by shooting him in the back in Abbeyleix (they thought he was an unarmed bank robber and nobody would care).
    I will take the word of two directors of public prosecutions of the Garda any day.

    Right because Gardai wouldn't know anything about crime, criminals, investigations would they?

    Look I'm not saying they behaved correctly here, they certaintly did not.

    Nor am I saying IB is definitly guilty, he may not be.

    But as Darko says above, if the Gardai believe they have a murderer within their grasp they will do what they have to, to prove it.

    Would any of us here do any different, if for example you had Larry Murphy sitting in front of you, and you knew he killed those women?Would you not pursue any and all avenues to get him?

    I am merely asking that we take a more balanced view of this case, rather than resorting to simplistic 'Ian B was right, the stupid thuggish Gardai were wrong' arguments.

    The method was, the actually thoughts or beliefs behind it may not be.


  • #80
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Right because Gardai wouldn't know anything about crime, criminals, investigations would they?

    Look I'm not saying they behaved correctly here, they certaintly did not.

    Nor am I saying IB is definitly guilty, he may not be.

    But as Darko says above, if the Gardai believe they have a murderer within their grasp they will do what they have to, to prove it.

    Would any of us here do any different, if for example you had Larry Murphy sitting in front of you, and you knew he killed those women?Would you not pursue any and all avenues to get him?

    I am merely asking that we take a more balanced view of this case, rather than resorting to simplistic 'Ian B was right, the stupid thuggish Gardai were wrong' arguments.

    The method was, the actually thoughts or beliefs behind it may not be.
    'Ian B was right, the stupid thuggish Gardai were wrong' (According to all the evidence and the views of two Directors of Public Prosecutions).


  • #81
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    lividduck wrote: »
    'Ian B was right, the stupid thuggish Gardai were wrong' (According to all the evidence and the views of two Directors of Public Prosecutions).

    Open your mind. Even the experts can make mistakes.


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  • #82
    Show Time
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,637 ✭✭✭Show Time


    Remember the Gardai who handle this case first day would not be the sharpest tools in the box(stationed in some bally go backwards instead of big city)so they took the simple approach and blame the local oddball which did not work out.


  • #83
    AngryBollix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭AngryBollix


    I can think of one really high profile case where a "suspect" got life in prison with the same "chronic lack of forensic evidence".

    I'm sure there are others


  • #84
    AngryBollix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭AngryBollix


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Open your mind. Even the experts can make mistakes.


    Mistakes are one thing. Anyone can make them.

    This isnt a simple mistake. It's a complete bollocks up.


  • #85
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Biggins wrote: »
    To be absolutely fair, I would say "some" within An Garda Siochana and those that did the investigating.
    I am sure there is many within An Garda Siochana that are just as appalled at the actions of their fellow numbers.
    ...If only for the fact that their bad actions reflect on the organisation as a whole and those innocent under its title.

    I agree.


  • #86
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Nothing is ever that simple in Criminal cases, or any kind of court case. There is always more than side to the story.

    Leave the self righteous outrage and Garda hating out of it and look at the case objectively.

    I'm not saying this wasn't a momunmental mess but it doesn't mean the Gardai were wrong.

    Jesus Im sorry but you describe the reaction a clear cut case of gardai corruption as self righteous outrage against the gardai? The gaurds used investigation methods which would make the witch hunters of salem embarrassed. Untill people finally wake up that theres a criminal element in the gardai nothing will change. No one is saying all gaurds are like this but the ones that are need to be dealt with.


  • #87
    john reilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭john reilly


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I don't think anyone would deny this whole thing was a monumental cock-up.

    But lets not reduce ourselves to the level of childish, mindless Garda bashing and holding Ian Bailey up as a hero.

    Can we please remember and accept that just because the case was shoddy does not mean he is innocent. I can't imagine that the Gardai would have gone as far as they did trying to prove him guilty if they didn't, in some way, really believe that he was.

    Nor does this case reflect on An Garda Siochana as a whole, however much you might like it to.

    This whole affair may not be, and likely is not, as simple as Ian Bailey = Good, Gardai= Bad.

    who said ian bailey was a hero. this isnt about him. its about hoe corrupt and incompetent the gardai are. as to his guilt if he is guilty then this makes the gardai even more incompetent


  • #88
    john reilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭john reilly


    Rhys Essien wrote: »
    Imagine if the guards(a guard) themselves were involved in her murder and needed to frame some poor old innocent fast.

    Good looking woman living on her own in remote area dishes someones advances,who are after getting fond of her.

    Now that would be mad.

    and I thought the gardai had a vivid imagination


  • #89
    pirelli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,876 ✭✭✭pirelli


    john reilly wrote: »
    who said ian bailey was a hero. this isnt about him. its about hoe corrupt and incompetent the gardai are. as to his guilt if he is guilty then this makes the gardai even more incompetent

    I read in the media that Ian Bailey burnt clothes in his back garden the day after the murder, is this more Garda propaganda.


  • #90
    berrypendel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 365 ✭✭berrypendel


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Can we please remember and accept that just because the case was shoddy does not mean he is innocent.
    it also does not mean he is guilty
    I can't imagine that the Gardai would have gone as far as they did trying to prove him guilty if they didn't, in some way, really believe that he was.
    i can easily imagine such a scenario, they had to get someone. And just because they really believed he was guilty does not mean he was. Ever hear of Dean Lyons
    Nor does this case reflect on An Garda Siochana as a whole, however much you might like it to.
    yes it does. Any organisation that can behave like that is a disgrace
    This whole affair may not be, and likely is not, as simple as Ian Bailey = Good, Gardai= Bad.
    nor is it necessarily Bailey =bad, garda = good


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  • #91
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    pirelli wrote: »
    I read in the media that Ian Bailey burnt clothes in his back garden the day after the murder, is this more Garda propaganda.

    The point here is who knows if he is guilty the gaurds incompetence endangered a guitly verdict. As for the garda propganda again who knows I wouldnt trust the garda in question.


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