Abolishing free fees in university?

starbelgrade · 01-03-2012 12:59AM

There was an article in the papers a while back about young female students turning to prostitution to help pay their way through college.

I'm sure we can all agree that something like that should be encouraged.

hattoncracker · 01-03-2012 01:00AM

DB10 wrote: »

Something needs to change I feel. I know lads on the piss 4 or 5 days a week, 3 days minimum, every week, and some of them with grant money to pay for this.

Sadly some people will have rich parents and others scrimping to get by, I'm neither here nor there, but one thing I will say is something is very wrong when people can get grants and yet afford to go on the lash 4 nights a week.

Now I'm no angel either, I love a piss up as much as the next man, but I dont have a job or a grant, just over the limit sadly, so I have to watch my money. Others can afford to swan around drinking grant money. I'm not bitter either, realistically if your full on the beer 3-5 days a week regularly your going to run into trouble in more ways than one.

I dont know what can be done. I wouldnt trust the Government to know either. I guess we just have to write it off.

If you're applying independently for grants, it's so so so hard to get it. They tried to tell me I wasn't entitled to one in a letter, and when I rang them they told me they sent me the 'wrong letter'. I have had an absolute nightmare trying to get one.

ebixa82 · 01-03-2012 01:02AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

There was an article in the papers a while back about young female students turning to prostitution to help pay their way through college.

I'm sure we can all agree that something like that should be encouraged.

Only if they are hot and accept student discounts.

Pacifist Pigeon · 01-03-2012 01:02AM

Domo230 wrote: »

Many of the courses are around €5800 per year (not all of course but some of the bigger ones are)

The registration is expected to go up more to around €2500 (not including other charges) so it's still a decent portion you pay.

I don't know where you're getting this from. That €5800 is probably covered under the free-fees scheme. I haven't encountered any undergraduate student yet in UCD who doesn't pay the same as me in fees. And what are these "bigger" courses you're taking about?

Domo230 wrote: »

Whatever way you put it, it's certainly not free.

Nothing in this life is fee. But going to UCD (fees wise) will probably cost you as much as going to any other third level institution in Ireland.

Domo230 wrote: »

Education should be a right for all. It won't affect the quality of education too much if the grading standards are maintained (sadly they are not in many subjects).

Education should never be seen as a right, rather a privilege. Centralised control of education has lead to steady decline in standards over the past decade. Foreign employers are absolutely dismayed by the quality of graduates (especially in the areas of science, engineering and IT). If it wasn't for our low corporate tax rate and connection to the european common market, those multinational would be out the door, happy to see the back of us. We are not a knowledge based economy, rather a low standard sham.

Our graduates are of a far lower standard than graduates from so-called third world economies like China and India.

hattoncracker · 01-03-2012 01:02AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

There was an article in the papers a while back about young female students turning to prostitution to help pay their way through college.

I'm sure we can all agree that something like that should be encouraged.

Funnily enough, my Facebook status from earlier:

Dear Car Insurance,

Thank you for making the career move to prostitution seem so inviting.

Yours,

Hatton "Brokie McSmashed" Cracker

:P

steddyeddy · 01-03-2012 01:06AM

ebixa82 wrote: »

You can get 600 points and end up being a crap Doctor/Lawyer or get only 300 and be a brilliant Doctor. Points system doesn't work.

Relax, you wouldn't be punishing everyone. Obviously if someone could afford to pay for the cost of putting the child through college AND the fees they should pay that too.

I can only speak for the sciences but the points system have zero relationship with inyelligence in this sense.

hattoncracker · 01-03-2012 01:06AM

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

I don't know where you're getting this from. That €5800 is probably covered under the free-fees scheme. I haven't encountered any undergraduate student yet in UCD who doesn't pay the same as me in fees. And what are these "bigger" courses you're taking about?

Nothing in this life is fee. But going to UCD (fees wise) will probably cost you as much as going to any other third level institution in Ireland.

Education should never be seen as a right, rather a privilege. Centralised control of education has lead to steady decline in standards over the past decade. Foreign employers are absolutely dismayed by the quality of graduates (especially in the areas of science, engineering and IT). If it wasn't for our low corporate tax rate and connection to the european common market, those multinational would be out the door, happy to see the back of us. We are not a knowledge based economy, rather a low standard sham.

Our graduates are of a far lower standard than from so-called third world economies like China and India.

I agree it should be a privilege, as a mature student, I don't like the way that people go back to college just because they don't have a job, and the DSP will pay for everything. I had a job, a full time, well paid job, I got myself a part-time contract with the same company, moved halfway across the country to start college, didn't even think I would get in, and when I started half the matures in my class don't give a boll*x (I'm the youngest mature in my class, 25). I would've gotten in with my points alone but my working history contributed towards that, I've worked my ass off to get where I am.

I can't help wondering if the peeps in your college who are arsing about now will be back as matures in ten years if they drop out.

Pacifist Pigeon · 01-03-2012 01:07AM

Domo230 wrote: »

For people interested here's a list of base costs for UCD (not including other charges)

http://www.ucd.ie/registry/adminservices/fees/undergraduate2011.htm

Most are €5,500 or €7,500 per year.

That is covered by free fees. You only pay €2000 plus a small student services levy of between €100 and €200. This is in fact the same for most other Third Level Institutions. Believe me, I go to UCD. I guarantee you, I most certainly do not pay €7500 a year. I got in because I worked hard for the LC, not because I was digging in my daddy's pocket.

hattoncracker · 01-03-2012 01:08AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I can only speak for the sciences but the points system have zero relationship with inyelligence in this sense.

Agreed, they don't even teach proper ICT in secondary schools, you're starting from scratch in Uni.

hattoncracker · 01-03-2012 01:12AM

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

That is covered by free fees. You only pay €2000 plus a small student services levy of between €100 and €2000. This is in fact the same for most other Third Level Institutions. Believe me, I go to UCD. I guarantee you, I most certainly do not pay €7500 a year. I got because I worked hard for the LC, not because I was digging in my daddy's pocket.

If you're a first time undergrad with no previous degrees, you only pay Admin of about €2,000. If you've dropped out and are going back within five years, you pay full fees for the number of years that you completed in your first course.
If you go over five years and return you are classed as a 'second chance mature' and only have to pay the admin. Grants will refund you the admin, or BTEA will sometimes cover it depending on your circumstances.

01-03-2012 01:13AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Should free fees be abolished in university for those who can afford them? Before people jump at me I think those who can afford them only include those who can pay fees without making significant changes in lifestyle. I do not think a lot of the middle class are rich either before people attack me for that.

In order to illustrate my point ill detail the following. I attend UCD and I was struck by the large number of people who seem to be absolutely minted. From what I hear the same applies to trinity.A large number of these rich students are funded to gills and a large proportion of them dont seem bothered at all. A lot of them see a degree as a hobby and go out drinking two or three nights a week. I was in a lecture theatre the other day where some students were shouting moo at the lecturer (agricultural science) we are paying for them to do that as a soceity and its not good enough anymore .

I dont think the poor should pay fees at all they generally work harder to get to university anyway (poor schools, lack of confidence, lack of society's expectations towards them) but theres an element in college today that can afford to pay lots why should the taxpayer fund them?

I've never understood this ridiculous attitude. Right now, with 'free' education, people who go to Trinity and UCD, had the same opportunity has everybody else, there will be wealthy people there, along with less well off. I can't help but facepalm when I hear 'o Trinity, isn't that where all the rich people go?', classic ignorant Ireland.

Pacifist Pigeon · 01-03-2012 01:14AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I can only speak for the sciences but the points system have zero relationship with inyelligence in this sense.

Sadly, I would agree. I knew a girl last year (a supposed star student) who didn't even know how to insert page numbers in a word document (and she's on a course that has a good bit of computing involved).

The LC is a points race, nothing else. It's not based on intellectual prowess.

Pacifist Pigeon · 01-03-2012 01:18AM

hattoncracker wrote: »

If you're a first time undergrad with no previous degrees, you only pay Admin of about €2,000. If you've dropped out and are going back within five years, you pay full fees for the number of years that you completed in your first course.
If you go over five years and return you are classed as a 'second chance mature' and only have to pay the admin. Grants will refund you the admin, or BTEA will sometimes cover it depending on your circumstances.

Yes, underscoring the fact that that the first scenario there you mention is for student who dropped out. A majority of student enrolled at undergraduate level are actually first time undergrads.

hattoncracker · 01-03-2012 01:20AM

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

Yes, underscoring the fact that that the first scenario there you mention is for student who dropped out. A majority of student enrolled at undergraduate level are actually first time undergrads.

No, the first scenario is for an undergrad who has never been to college before (a first time undergrad, as I said, and you said) second is for a drop out who goes back within five years, third is for someone who drops out and returns as a mature.

I think that career guidance also has a hand to play in this, we are expected to pick exactly what we are going to study and work at for the rest of our lives at 18 with no experience in anything else except the subjects taught for the Leaving Cert.

WoollyRedHat · 01-03-2012 01:22AM

Free Fees! Stop the oppression!

Pacifist Pigeon · 01-03-2012 02:09AM

hattoncracker wrote: »

I think that career guidance also has a hand to play in this, we are expected to pick exactly what we are going to study and work at for the rest of our lives at 18 with no experience in anything else except the subjects taught for the Leaving Cert.

+1. However, I say making these decision at, say, 21 is a little late also. That's just the way things are.

JohnMearsheimer · 01-03-2012 02:31AM

I wouldn't be opposed to the introduction of a loan system for fees and living expenses, similar to what they have in the UK. I think a lot of people here go to college just for the sake of it and don't really think about what they really want to do. You also get people going to college for a year or two and dropping out, with the government having wasted a few thousand in tuition for their time in college. I'm guilty of rushing into college. Maybe if I had to pay I would have put more thought into what I wanted to do.

I did my masters in the UK and everyone in my class had gotten a loan from the government to do it. They're working now and the repayment of their loans comes directly out of their taxes, they said they'd hardly notice it.

hattoncracker · 01-03-2012 02:31AM

Pacifist Pigeon wrote: »

hattoncracker wrote: »

I think that career guidance also has a hand to play in this, we are expected to pick exactly what we are going to study and work at for the rest of our lives at 18 with no experience in anything else except the subjects taught for the Leaving Cert.

+1. However, I say making these decision at, say, 21 is a little late also. That's just the way things are.

Yeah but teaching things programming, and making sure that all science subjects are offered in secondary schools as standard should help. My secondary school only offered biology for LC..

IrishEyes19 · 01-03-2012 02:48AM

JohnMearsheimer wrote: »

I wouldn't be opposed to the introduction of a loan system for fees and living expenses, similar to what they have in the UK. I think a lot of people here go to college just for the sake of it and don't really think about what they really want to do. You also get people going to college for a year or two and dropping out, with the government having wasted a few thousand in tuition for their time in college. I'm guilty of rushing into college. Maybe if I had to pay I would have put more thought into what I wanted to do.

I did my masters in the UK and everyone in my class had gotten a loan from the government to do it. They're working now and the repayment of their loans comes directly out of their taxes, they said they'd hardly notice it.

That would be a blessing. I finished my undergrad recently, did really well, am. middle class but cant afford a postgrad right now which I need to progress. So trying to save for next year/two years to do that. I never got a grant, was never entitled to it, even though the fees with other siblings and bills like everyone else has fleeced me dry. The loan from the government would be great, its frightening coming out of college having worked so hard and having nothing to show for it because in my field, I have to do a postgrad. Plus I think it would work well, most people who apply for postgrads arent messers who dont know what to do after the undergrad so it wouldnt be a waste of money either.

Overheal · 01-03-2012 03:08AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I am so sick of hearing this ^^ reductionist propagandistic bullshit. The rich pay more income tax - that's where this idea begins and ends.

The sum total tax burden on the middle and working classes is far greater when all taxes and flat charges are considered.

So people, don't ever let anyone tell you the rich pay more taxes - they fucking do not.

Well they don't pay less, either. At any rate they should have access to the same facilities as anyone else. Or would it make more sense to you that 'rich' people were excluded from hospital care? As an example.

JohnMearsheimer · 01-03-2012 03:16AM

IrishEyes19 wrote: »

That would be a blessing. I finished my undergrad recently, did really well, am. middle class but cant afford a postgrad right now which I need to progress. So trying to save for next year/two years to do that. I never got a grant, was never entitled to it, even though the fees with other siblings and bills like everyone else has fleeced me dry. The loan from the government would be great, its frightening coming out of college having worked so hard and having nothing to show for it because in my field, I have to do a postgrad. Plus I think it would work well, most people who apply for postgrads arent messers who dont know what to do after the undergrad so it wouldnt be a waste of money either.

It really would. My Dad was a postal sorter. He made enough to keep the house going but he was never rolling in it. I never qualified for a grant but I never sought one either because I lived at home for college. The government seem to think that tuition fees are the only expense associated with going to college. I was lucky that I lived near UCC but if I wanted to do a course that was only available in Dublin there would have been no chance of me doing it. Me and my parents could never have afforded 4 years in Dublin, even with tuition fees being paid by the government.

They seem to have a good set up in the UK. If you want to go to college you can. When I did my masters in the UK I missed the whole 2nd semester because I was working full time to pay my fees and keep a roof over my head. I wasn't entitled to any help. It was tough going. A loan from the government, British or Irish, would have made a great difference.

I think Batt O'Keeffe rejected a loan system when he was Minister for Education because it would take the government too long to recoup money from students....from what I can see they are getting nothing from students at the moment. Surely getting something back through a graduate tax is better than getting nothing.

Chuck Stone · 01-03-2012 03:28AM

Overheal wrote: »

Well they don't pay less, either.

Yes they do, proportionately. Also the rich benefit more from socialized stuff like roads (goods transport and customer access), defence, law and order/policing because they have more to protect.

At any rate they should have access to the same facilities as anyone else.

I believe the user should pay. Talented students from poor backgrounds should receive scholarships. People from lower and middle income backgrounds could receive a mix of grants and loans depending on means. People with the means should just pay the full cost.

Or would it make more sense to you that 'rich' people were excluded from hospital care? As an example.

No, of course not. Different issue anyway.

Overheal · 01-03-2012 02:24PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Yes they do, proportionately. Also the rich benefit more from socialized stuff like roads (goods transport and customer access), defence, law and order/policing because they have more to protect.

They also have more to tax. Cars, Property, Goods, etc.

Everyone has just as much access to the roads. Unless you wish to count the Motorway, which by design doesn't cater to tractors, mopeds, and pedestrians.

Chuck Stone · 01-03-2012 02:36PM

Overheal wrote: »

They also have more to tax. Cars, Property, Goods, etc.

Yes, and that need to be protected by defence and law and order as above so..

Everyone has just as much access to the roads.

If you own a car and have somewhere to go yes.

Building of roads is a socialized way of providing routes for auto-mobiles. Business and auto manufacturers get the most use out of roads. Think of the wear and tear caused by heavy goods vehicles as compared with a small family car.

Building and maintaining roads and motorways is an expensive business and in a way it's a subsidy to auto manufacturers, oil sales in the form of diesel/petrol, and big businesses.

We're going off topic.

tmcsullivan · 06-03-2018 04:21PM

Hi,

How do I submit a topic to boards.ie

freshpopcorn · 06-03-2018 04:23PM

Zombie thread!

Abolishing free fees in university?

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