MOTOR TAXES

mercenary2 · 27-02-2012 5:20am #1

when we tax a car we are taxed on the emissions now ,,yet when we go to the pumps to fill up we are yet again taxed on emissions from burning the fuel,so arnt the goverment taxing us twice on the same thing and is this not illegal to charge tax twice for the same thing?

FearDark · 27-02-2012 5:26am

VRT

Taxed three times.

27-02-2012 5:34am

It is illegal, but as we live in Ireland the old adage applies: Sure it'll be grand.

Mr.Biscuits · 27-02-2012 7:17am

The only fair system for Road Tax would be to pay it ALL at the pumps.

That way everyone would pay a proportionate amount of tax based on a system of usage - rather than the current system where some drivers may hardly ever use their car and yet have to pay the same amount as someone who drives each and every day.

mercenary2 · 27-02-2012 7:21am

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

The only fair system for Road Tax would be to pay it ALL at the pumps.

That way everyone would pay a proportionate amount of tax based on a system of usage - rather than the current system where some drivers may hardly ever use their car and yet have to pay the same amount as someone who drives each and every day.

i agree this is what needs to be done ,but who then would line the goverments pockets...

yes it is a nice house .. 500k you say ,i will take it just put it down to my expenses:)

mercenary2 · 27-02-2012 7:28am

FearDark wrote: »

VRT

Taxed three times.

all a bit diff..

vrt vehicle registration tax ...only once

vat value added tax .... only once

road tax or under new payment emission tax ....twice again at the pump

but yes to get a new car on the road very expensive ,and to look at it that way you are actualy taxed 4 times before car hits the road,vrt,vat,road tax,fuel tax,or 5 if you include paye .as you would need to earn to afford a new car.

Victor · 27-02-2012 7:34am

There are two certainties in life - death and taxes.

Yes, everyone would like to live longer and pay less, but the realities are that such things aren't sustainable. For the last 15 years we haven't been paying enough taxes. Instead, we borrowed money internationally to sell each other houses which were then improperly taxed and that money was used to fund social programmes. The problem was that the money was ultimately borrowed money.

mercenary2 wrote: »

when we tax a car we are taxed on the emissions now ,,yet when we go to the pumps to fill up we are yet again taxed on emissions from burning the fuel,so arnt the goverment taxing us twice on the same thing

One is a tax on the vehicle, the other a tax on the fuel.

and is this not illegal to charge tax twice for the same thing?

How is it illegal?

On incomes people pay income tax, PRSI and the income levy.

On beer people pay excise duty and VAT.

On property, people pay stamp duty and/or VAT and the NPPR charge / household charge.

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

The only fair system for Road Tax would be to pay it ALL at the pumps.

Except for people who live near the border who would just top up there as fuel would then be a fair bit cheaper there. Such a change would mean commercial operators, with high consumption would pay more for their fuel and despite paying a higher rate of tax, the government would get less revenue. It would also facilitate and incentivise people who are laundering diesel.

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

That way everyone would pay a proportionate amount of tax based on a system of usage - rather than the current system where some drivers may hardly ever use their car and yet have to pay the same amount as someone who drives each and every day.

While they may pay the same amount in motor tax, they wouldn't be paying the excise or VAT on the fuel.

ex_infantry man · 27-02-2012 8:03am

don,t forget toll roads, these are usually public private partnership where the government use our taxes to pay half and then we,re charged as per usage

corktina · 27-02-2012 8:16am

Lets shut down all those expensive schools and hospitals , then we could get rid of all these nasty taxes.:rolleyes:

Jesus Shaves · 27-02-2012 8:23am

corktina wrote: »

Lets shut down all those expensive schools and hospitals , then we could get rid of all these nasty taxes.:rolleyes:

that's a really good idea

mercenary2 · 27-02-2012 8:23am

Victor wrote: »

There are two certainties in life - death and taxes.

Yes, everyone would like to live longer and pay less, but the realities are that such things aren't sustainable. For the last 15 years we haven't been paying enough taxes. Instead, we borrowed money internationally to sell each other houses which were then improperly taxed and that money was used to fund social programmes. The problem was that the money was ultimately borrowed money.
One is a tax on the vehicle, the other a tax on the fuel.

How is it illegal?

On incomes people pay income tax, PRSI and the income levy.

On beer people pay excise duty and VAT.

On property, people pay stamp duty and/or VAT and the NPPR charge / household charge.
Except for people who live near the border who would just top up there as fuel would then be a fair bit cheaper there. Such a change would mean commercial operators, with high consumption would pay more for their fuel and despite paying a higher rate of tax, the government would get less revenue. It would also facilitate and incentivise people who are laundering diesel.

While they may pay the same amount in motor tax, they wouldn't be paying the excise or VAT on the fuel.

we have been paying to much taxes for the last 15 years and yes it was all borrowed money taking due to greed of goverment and the ppl . I knew 7 years ago when i was offered 100k in my account the next morning towards a house that is wasnt worth it and i said no to it..if only a lot more ppl did then we would not need be taxed on taxes as we would not of borrowed as much. greed is what put is were we are nothing else anyways not to be going off track..

yet again the taxes you mention above are all different not the same income tax or paye ..pay as you earn ,prsi pay related social insurance [towards your pension] all different if you see what i mean. but under the new ways of taxing a car buying road tax and buying fuel at the pump both fall under the new emission tax,resulting in being taxed twice for the same thing...

27-02-2012 11:26am

mercenary2 wrote: »

when we tax a car we are taxed on the emissions now ,,yet when we go to the pumps to fill up we are yet again taxed on emissions from burning the fuel,so arnt the goverment taxing us twice on the same thing and is this not illegal to charge tax twice for the same thing?

........... well if you're being taxed on emissions it's more than likely less than the rate in the old cc system so if I was you I wouldn't view it as being charged twice.

zulfikarMD · 27-02-2012 1:32pm

corktina wrote: »

Lets shut down all those expensive schools and hospitals , then we could get rid of all these nasty taxes.:rolleyes:

may be outsource all school/colleges/hospitals etc.. to china..lol:D

Sesshoumaru · 27-02-2012 1:38pm

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

The only fair system for Road Tax would be to pay it ALL at the pumps.

That way everyone would pay a proportionate amount of tax based on a system of usage - rather than the current system where some drivers may hardly ever use their car and yet have to pay the same amount as someone who drives each and every day.

Definitely agree. All motor taxes should be paid at the petrol / diesel pump

creedp · 27-02-2012 1:53pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Definitely agree. All motor taxes should be paid at the petrol / diesel pump

How then will the EV drivers contribute to the pot to compensate the world for all the fossil fuels burned to create their 'zero CO2' propulsion ..

CiniO · 27-02-2012 2:06pm

mercenary2 wrote: »

vrt vehicle registration tax ...only once

vat value added tax .... only once

I don't agree.

VRT is paid nearly twice, not once

IN general you pay VRT on OMSP (Open Market selling price) which actually already contains VRT. So your VRT is calculated as percentage of price which already contains VRT.

Example.
You buy a car abroad for 10k and bring it back home to Ireland (CO emissions of 200g/km).
Cars like this in Ireland are more expensive because of vrt, and range at about 14.7k.
So when you go to pay VRT on your car, you pay 32% on OMSP (14.7k).
14.7k * 32% = 4.7k

So that means that on your car which you purchased for 10k, you pay 4.7k VRT tax, which is effectively 47% of the car value, even though they claim you pay only 32%.

So yes - you pay VRT nearly twice.

And VAT. When car is new, you pay vat on it, which is calculated on price already containing VRT. From example above, as almost half od the car price is VRT, then it means that half of you vat is paid not on car, but on vrt.

Sesshoumaru · 27-02-2012 2:11pm

creedp wrote: »

How then will the EV drivers contribute to the pot to compensate the world for all the fossil fuels burned to create their 'zero CO2' propulsion ..

Minus the hyperbole, that was the point of my post.

Mr.Biscuits · 27-02-2012 5:56pm

Victor wrote: »

Except for people who live near the border who would just top up there as fuel would then be a fair bit cheaper there.

Well, so what - isn't that what the EU was supposed to be about?

Victor wrote: »

Such a change would mean commercial operators, with high consumption would pay more for their fuel and despite paying a higher rate of tax, the government would get less revenue.

They could legislate for that but it still is not a strong argument for the current system which is wholly unfair to the occasional driver.

Victor wrote: »

It would also facilitate and incentivise people who are laundering diesel.

Sure that's there anyway and I don't see incentivication for smuggling stopping the Goverment taxing cigarettes to the high heavens.

The simple fact is that Road Tax should be based on a system of usage. If you have a 'green' car, then you won't be buying much fuel and if you don't drive so much, the same applies.

Not that I'm holding my breath mind - the motorist is any easy target for them, always was.

Statistician · 27-02-2012 6:04pm

To drive a car, at least the following taxes apply:

You first pay taxes on your wages:
- Income Tax (PAYE)
- PRSI
- USC
Then you buy the car:
- VAT
- VRT
Then you pay to get it on the road:
- NCT (if over 4 years old)
- Motor tax (or road tax or whatever it's called)
- Is there also a levy on car insurance?
Then you need to put fuel in it:
- VAT
- Duty
You may also have to pay Tolls and parking.

I've probably missed out some taxes, but there are at least 10 taxes involved in motoring.

CiniO · 27-02-2012 6:11pm

Statistician wrote: »

To drive a car, at least the following taxes apply:

You first pay taxes on your wages:
- Income Tax (PAYE)
- PRSI
- USC
Then you buy the car:
- VAT
- VRT
Then you pay to get it on the road:
- NCT (if over 4 years old)
- Motor tax (or road tax or whatever it's called)
- Is there also a levy on car insurance?
Then you need to put fuel in it:
- VAT
- Duty
You may also have to pay Tolls and parking.

I've probably missed out some taxes, but there are at least 10 taxes involved in motoring.

Yes, there is levy in Insurance.

However I wouldn't call NCT a tax.
You pay €55 for a service of checking roadworthiness of your car. That's not a tax.

Statistician · 27-02-2012 6:16pm

CiniO wrote: »

Yes, there is levy in Insurance.

However I wouldn't call NCT a tax.
You pay €55 for a service of checking roadworthiness of your car. That's not a tax.

There is no option but to pay this. It didn't exist a few years ago, and now it does. I don't even believe it does necessarily check road worthiness. I could damage my car five minutes after an NCT and make it un-road worthy.
I look at is more of a ploy to get people to keep buying new(er) cars, and keep paying more taxes.

Jimdagym · 27-02-2012 6:23pm

Statistician wrote: »

There is no option but to pay this. It didn't exist a few years ago, and now it does. I don't even believe it does necessarily check road worthiness. I could damage my car five minutes after an NCT and make it un-road worthy.
I look at is more of a ploy to get people to keep buying new(er) cars, and keep paying more taxes.

I don't get your point. The NCT says your car is roadworthy at a specific date and time. Of course you can walk out the door and wrap it around a tree after, but what's the relevance?

CiniO · 27-02-2012 6:24pm

Statistician wrote: »

There is no option but to pay this.

Same as with insurance, but you didn't classify insurance as a tax. You just asked if there was some levy in it.

It didn't exist a few years ago, and now it does. I don't even believe it does necessarily check road worthiness. I could damage my car five minutes after an NCT and make it un-road worthy.
I look at is more of a ploy to get people to keep buying new(er) cars, and keep paying more taxes.

No. It's there just to cause people to keep their cars in better condition that they would without it.
I know it was introduced in Ireland not so long time ago, but almost everywhere is EU vehicles test were there for the last 50 years, and no one complains about them.

It's the motor tax which is a money thrown away.
I way prefer to pay €55 for a test, €400 for repairs, and another €28 for retest, instead of paying €500 for motortax.
Motortax doesn't give you anything. NCT makes your car safer.

Statistician · 27-02-2012 6:36pm

CiniO wrote: »

Same as with insurance, but you didn't classify insurance as a tax. You just asked if there was some levy in it.

No. It's there just to cause people to keep their cars in better condition that they would without it.
I know it was introduced in Ireland not so long time ago, but almost everywhere is EU vehicles test were there for the last 50 years, and no one complains about them.

People are used it now, that why they don't complain. In the same way that people will stop complaining about septic tank test charges in another few years.

Before the NCT, if the vehicle was not roadworthy, you could still be breaking the law by driving it. I do not believe it would be legal for me to drive a vehicle where the the doors had been torn off.

It is a mandatory, government imposed tax. I suppose you could also say insurance falls into the same category.

The argument is not whether the taxes are 'good' or 'bad', it is what the government is forcing you to pay before you can drive your car.

CiniO · 27-02-2012 8:28pm

Statistician wrote: »

People are used it now, that why they don't complain. In the same way that people will stop complaining about septic tank test charges in another few years.

Before the NCT, if the vehicle was not roadworthy, you could still be breaking the law by driving it. I do not believe it would be legal for me to drive a vehicle where the the doors had been torn off.

But then in most cases people would even know their vehicle was not worthy, and what more - they would not really be interested to find out. Now every 2 year, or even every 1 year for older vehicles they are forced to find out. And that's actually very good for them.

It is a mandatory, government imposed tax.

No. It's not a tax. You are paying for a service of checking your car. It is mandatory, but it's not a tax.

I suppose you could also say insurance falls into the same category.

With NCT is way better situation than with insurances, as NCT is fully regulated by Law. There is certain list of things which must be checked. There is a company designated by government to do this checks. There is a set price. Pretty much all in order.
Insurance companies are pulling a fast one with most drivers, as they can generally put any prices and any terms and conditions they want.
I would love to see obligatory third party insurances, to be regulated to the way more higher point than they are now.

GL scrappy · 27-02-2012 9:15pm

Statistician wrote: »

You first pay taxes on your wages:
- Income Tax (PAYE)
- PRSI
- USC

Not everybody who drives a car has a job and is lucky enough to pay these three taxes.

mercenary2 · 27-02-2012 9:51pm

CiniO wrote: »

Same as with insurance, but you didn't classify insurance as a tax. You just asked if there was some levy in it.

No. It's there just to cause people to keep their cars in better condition that they would without it.
I know it was introduced in Ireland not so long time ago, but almost everywhere is EU vehicles test were there for the last 50 years, and no one complains about them.

It's the motor tax which is a money thrown away.
I way prefer to pay €55 for a test, €400 for repairs, and another €28 for retest, instead of paying €500 for motortax.
Motortax doesn't give you anything. NCT makes your car safer.[/QUOTE

i would agree ..
nct or mot has been in most eu member states for quite some time it is needed keeps you on top of your car after all a vehical is no more than a dangeres weapon if it is faulty ,,road tax on the other hand well look the uk has road tax but at a fraction of the cost,,but they have roads ,we on the other hand pay higher tax to drive on pothole infested tracks which damage our cars...so another way to look at it is the goverment taxing us on them damaging our valubles...

creedp · 27-02-2012 10:58pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Minus the hyperbole, that was the point of my post.

Ah gottcha .. irony is lost on me

CiniO · 27-02-2012 11:41pm

mercenary2 wrote: »

i would agree ..
nct or mot has been in most eu member states for quite some time it is needed keeps you on top of your car after all a vehical is no more than a dangeres weapon if it is faulty ,,road tax on the other hand well look the uk has road tax but at a fraction of the cost,,but they have roads ,we on the other hand pay higher tax to drive on pothole infested tracks which damage our cars...so another way to look at it is the goverment taxing us on them damaging our valubles...

I actually can't understand the idea of motor tax at all.
If it's supposed to be used for building and refurbishing the roads, then I even more can't understand it.
Roads are used by the whole society: directly (by drivers) and indirectly (by everyone).
Roads are needed to transport nearly everything over the country.
Without road we wouldn't have food, houses, jobs, anything really.

That's why maintaining good road infrastructure, is essential for the whole society, and should be sponsored from general tax money, not just some nonsense motor-tax.

creedp · 27-02-2012 11:55pm

CiniO wrote: »

I actually can't understand the idea of motor tax at all.
If it's supposed to be used for building and refurbishing the roads, then I even more can't understand it.
Roads are used by the whole society: directly (by drivers) and indirectly (by everyone).
Roads are needed to transport nearly everything over the country.
Without road we wouldn't have food, houses, jobs, anything really.

That's why maintaining good road infrastructure, is essential for the whole society, and should be sponsored from general tax money, not just some nonsense motor-tax.

What's not to understand about it .. its a source of revenue that goes into the big pot of general tax and get spents .. in much the same way as all other taxes. How is it different to VRT and VAT? In some ways it could be seen as a reasonable tax if you consider that cars are treated as a luxury and therefore people who use them have to pay for the priveledge. In theory it is supposed to be used to fund road maintenance but in reality who knows what happens. Suffice to say that road maintenance is underfunded in this country so is that because motor tax is too low or is it because it is used to fund other aspects of Govt spend.

cgarrad · 27-02-2012 11:58pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_production_battery_electric_vehicles

MOTOR TAXES

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