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Shock, horror as passengers desert the railways!

13

Comments

  • #62
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    It's a minimum 15 minutes - it could be 20, it could even be 25. The report says clearly that trains would take at most 2 hours 30 minutes.

    That would be achieved through a combination of revised stopping patterns (facilitated by additional Limerick direct services) and the investment in the infrastructure.


  • #63
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,631 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Let me ask you all this question.

    What do you think would benefit commuters between Cork and Dublin more:

    Knocking 15 minutes of the train journey?

    Knocking 1 hour 15 minutes off the bus journey?

    Personally I'm of the opinion (as are all my Corkonian friends living in Dublin), that a 3h bus service to Cork for €20 return is far more useful to us then a 2h 30m train service that costs €80 return.

    Would anyone disagree with that? And what is you logic for disagreeing with it?

    Best of all the bus option costs the taxpayer ZERO.


  • #64
    LeftBlank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭LeftBlank


    bk wrote: »
    Let me ask you all this question.

    What do you think would benefit commuters between Cork and Dublin more:

    Knocking 15 minutes of the train journey?

    Knocking 1 hour 15 minutes off the bus journey?

    Knocking 1 hour 15 minutes off the bus journey between Cork and Dublin would not benefit those living in Mallow, Limerick or any of the other sizeable intermediate stations between Dublin and Cork.

    Knocking at least 15 minutes off the train journey would benefit more people.

    Also, the only reason the cost is 0 to the taxpayer is that billions have been spent upgrading the road network already. We all pay for that through direct and indirect taxation.


  • #65
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    LeftBlank wrote: »
    Knocking 1 hour 15 minutes off the bus journey between Cork and Dublin would not benefit those living in Mallow, Limerick or any of the other sizeable intermediate stations between Dublin and Cork.

    .

    building the M20 would,,same thing really.


  • #66
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    We do pay for the continued maintenance of the roads - there is not a zero cost.

    Also it is a minimum 15 minutes - it could be 20-25 or more depending on stopping patterns and the work done - at least get your arguments and figures correct.


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  • #67
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,631 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    LeftBlank wrote: »
    Knocking 1 hour 15 minutes off the bus journey between Cork and Dublin would not benefit those living in Mallow, Limerick or any of the other sizeable intermediate stations between Dublin and Cork.

    Limerick already has the new direct non stop Dublin Coach service launched just a few weeks ago, so it has already gained this benefit.

    2h 45min €20 return versus ~2h 25min for €63 return

    The M20 would likely deliver faster journey times between Cork and Mallow then the train and would benefit from far more people and actually save lives on a dangerous road.
    LeftBlank wrote: »
    Also, the only reason the cost is 0 to the taxpayer is that billions have been spent upgrading the road network already. We all pay for that through direct and indirect taxation.

    Irrelevant argument for two reasons:

    1) The road network is already built and the money spent, so no point in talking about it now.

    2) Even if you went back 10 years and had this argument back then, you would still have built the road network, because it was badly needed. Every country needs a good road network, most people and freight travel by road, so it is vital to the economy to have a good road network. The new road network has also saved hundreds of peoples lives with road deaths at their lowest level ever.

    So now that we have a high quality road network, there are only two questions worth asking:

    1) How do we make the best use of this new road network?

    2) What is the economic justification for continued investment in rail, if the road network already delivers most of what you need?


  • #68
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Also, where are you getting 1 hour 15 minutes being cut off the bus journey?

    Realistically a non-stop bus is going to take about 3 hours 10 minutes, which is only 35 minutes faster than the current Aircoach timings of 3 hours 45 minutes.


  • #69
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,631 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Also, where are you getting 1 hour 15 minutes being cut off the bus journey?

    Realistically a non-stop bus is going to take about 3 hours 10 minutes, which is only 35 minutes faster than the current Aircoach timings of 3 hours 45 minutes.

    Impressive, I was basing it off the Bus Eireann times.

    If Aircoach are doing a stopping service in 3h45m, then a direct service in 3h should definitely be doable.
    kieran4003 wrote:
    As I also have a knowledge of Bus Eireann & buses, The Bus Eireann service is very poor at 4hrs 25mins. Having said that on some services an extra bus is needed and goes non stop from Cork - Dublin. So there are unoffical non stop services there. There is a high demand for the service. Soon 6 tri axle coaches will be entering service on the route, increasing capacity. My friends in the bus industry are of the view that no company is interested in operating a fast bus service between Cork and Dublin. The figures apparently are risky. Though I think Bus Eireann could give it a shot, Have the stopping service and a non stop service at alternate hours perhaps.

    I think it would only be risky for Bus Eireann or Aircoach as they would risk cannibalising their existing services and risk running near empty stopping services.

    I can't see any risk for an operator not already operating on the Cork route (e.g. GoBus, CityLink, Dublin Coach, etc.). Not only would they steal customers from rail, but also BE's and Aircoachs stopping service.

    Basically every single BE and Aircoach customer in Cork would get this service instead (why wouldn't they) and they would also win customers from rail. It is a no brainer.


  • #70
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Well bk as I keep saying to you if there's zero risk why don't you do it?

    Or at the very least why not FOI the NTA and find out if someone has applied for it and what is the status of the application?

    That at least would put you out of your misery!


  • #71
    Cat Melodeon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭Cat Melodeon


    Timetabling surely is the easiest thing for IE to fix? Why can't I get from Dublin to Cork before 09.50? Or Dublin to Limerick before 9.15? Commuter services are crap. The major intercity services need to have trains arriving between 8am and 8.30 to give commuters a chance to get to their workplaces in time. And not just commuters, but people travelling for hospital appointments, job interviews, onward travel etc. The current timetables seem to be based on an assumption that Dublin is the only destination people need to get to early in the morning, and that the bulk of potential passengers are only interested in off-peak travel. This needs to change if there is any hope of people switching from road to rail.


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  • #72
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I do wonder how many people would travel from Dublin to Cork on an 0600 service? The main demand is definitely in the other direction. However when the new fleet of ICRs is commissioned maybe a 3 piece ICR could be used for such a service and which could then strengthen either the 1130 or 1230 from Cork to 6 piece operation.

    There are commuter services from Mallow and Tralee to Cork (the Charleville/Cork service was discontinued due to lack of use some years back), and from Thurles, Ennis/Galway, and Nenagh to Limerick.

    I don't think there would be too many commuters per se travelling longer distances?


  • #73
    saywhatyousee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭saywhatyousee


    Alfasud wrote: »
    Was at a football match in Portlaoise on Sunday. Several trains passed the pitch. All seemed to be empty. Would it not be better charge £10 flat rate to any destination and have a full train.

    There was an advertisement in local Sligo paper yesterday from Irish rail offering 20 euro return fare between Sligo-Dublin any train any time with valid student i.d


  • #74
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,349 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I do wonder how many people would travel from Dublin to Cork on an 0600 service? The main demand is definitely in the other direction. However when the new fleet of ICRs is commissioned maybe a 3 piece ICR could be used for such a service
    Apparently the Dublin-Cork train numbering system has a gap before the first train to accommodate an 0600. An example timetable could be something like

    Heuston dep 0600
    Limerick Junction stop 0731
    transfer to 0800 dep to Limerick
    uplift from 0710 ex Limerick
    Mallow stop 0804
    Cork arrive 0828

    If pickup wasn't considered important from Limerick then the stop could be at Thurles where the inward train originates. However arriving in Mallow 0804 might be a bit too close to the preceding suburban so then there would be a question as to whether to rejig the suburban schedule or to add a stop or two - for instance a stop at Charleville would create an instant commuter service from a town whose first service southwards is now an 1105 departure. It didn't work as a straight commuter run before but a stop on an ex Dublin would be a different situation. I certainly think it's at least worth trying as much as the Alan Kelly Express from Nenagh.


  • #75
    Dublin Spotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭Dublin Spotter


    The cork train passing Kildare earlier today was so late the 14.50 Waterford-Heuston service was deliberately delayed to allow it pass, this kind of nonsense must stop if rail is to have a future! If a train is delayed why not be honest about it and nevermind trying to wriggle out of trouble by claiming that ten minutes late is still on time especially with the serious amount of padding on the cork service! And when one train is late there is little sense or intelligence in delaying a second train just to make the statistics look good!

    A complete joke. The 14.50 is scheduled in Heustion at 17.18 and the 14.30 from Cork is scheduled for 17.20. A very bad timetable and the Waterford line takes the slack for all services form Dublin, not one non stop to Athy anymore, service stations such as Thomastown where nobody boards, gets off most of the time.

    Once before the 14.50 from Waterford was on time and they dleayed it for 15 mins a Cherryville to allow the 14.30 form Cork pass. Is it any wonder the line is losing thousands and thousands of passengers every year.

    I used to use the serivce but now drive or take bus as its a complete joke. The restrictions are a serous problem as they are the solution to IR not carrying out work on the line. The Mark 3 were allowd to travel faster on parts of the line than the ICR's. Nearly 20% of the line is between 0-25 miles speed limit.

    A good sourse tells me that there will be another speed restriction of 20 miles added very soon. He says at the Kilkenny junction from the Dublin side just before the first level as the ICR are bieng have mjor problems at the side.


  • #76
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,349 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Would there be much of a downside to 3-tracking all the way from Kildare approach to Cherryville, basically moving the junction to Kildare approach? A few bridges to deal with but operationally? In the situation outlined above it seems like it would have been better for the Waterford service to be stopped in Kildare rather than the middle of nowhere at the junction.


  • #77
    Dublin Spotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭Dublin Spotter


    That is an option but time is running out and unless something is done now (which there can) to improve speed and journey times there fall in passengers will still be steep. People are just sick of the serive and the time, the blame can't just be the Kilkenny set up.

    Passengers increased by 3,000 in 2010 and then the line lost 27,000 in 2011. Full motorway was open in late 2010. That is a steep decline and I would say it will top 30,000 this year.


  • #78
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    bk wrote: »
    Yes, I mentioned that in a previous post, it is €250 million for other lines including Limerick, Galway, etc.

    Even €50 m to save just 15 minutes isn't really a great investment.
    If they could operate to their currently well padded +10 minutes late before we're actually late timetables they wouldn't need to go with the begging bowl!
    bk wrote: »
    Limerick already has the new direct non stop Dublin Coach service launched just a few weeks ago, so it has already gained this benefit.

    2h 45min €20 return versus ~2h 25min for €63 return
    Don't forget to ADD 20 minutes and a couple of euro to the rail times and fares for the bus or luas from Heuston to Dublin city centre.
    dowlingm wrote: »
    Would there be much of a downside to 3-tracking all the way from Kildare approach to Cherryville, basically moving the junction to Kildare approach? A few bridges to deal with but operationally? In the situation outlined above it seems like it would have been better for the Waterford service to be stopped in Kildare rather than the middle of nowhere at the junction.
    If it had been triple tracked during the Kildare route project upheavals it would have made a difference but the disruption now would finish off the Waterford service for most commuters and regular users! Waterford passengers would of course be treated as second class next to trains on the "MAIN LINE" and the delays would be impossible to endure for most.

    As for the delay at Kildare yes I think the cork train should have been delayed further as there was already one train full of late passengers so why double the number when at least one train could have easily operated to its scheduled timetable?!


  • #79
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Dublin Spotter wrote: »
    That is an option but time is running out and unless something is done now (which there can) to improve speed and journey times there fall in passengers will still be steep. People are just sick of the serive and the time, the blame can't just be the Kilkenny set up.

    Passengers increased by 3,000 in 2010 and then the line lost 27,000 in 2011. Full motorway was open in late 2010. That is a steep decline and I would say it will top 30,000 this year.

    if those figures are accurate they bear out what many of us have been saying.:mad:


  • #80
    schemingbohemia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    Alfasud wrote: »
    Was at a football match in Portlaoise on Sunday. Several trains passed the pitch. All seemed to be empty. Would it not be better charge £10 flat rate to any destination and have a full train.

    Could those trains have been going to and from the maintenance depot?

    Was it O'Moore Park you were at? If so that could well have been the case.


  • #81
    BazNuge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 ✭BazNuge


    Just booked my train to Cork for the weekend. €76. I know its only an extra €3 but goddammnit, I might as well drive.

    Any news on the Aircoach or any other service?


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  • #82
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    There is nothing in the public domain to date to indicate that any coach operator has applied for a non-stop Dublin/Cork licence.

    Until one is granted or someone makes an FOI request on the NTA to ask whether there are applications being considered we won't know.


  • #83
    Jehuty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    schemingbohemia wrote: »
    Could those trains have been going to and from the maintenance depot?

    Was it O'Moore Park you were at? If so that could well have been the case.

    A lot of people seem to be confused about the actual location of the ICR depot. There are in fact two large rail depots jus south of Portaloise. The first one, visible from the station platform, near O'Moore Park, is a permanent way depot built on a junction to some branch line I can't remember. There would never be an ICR in there, just 071s and dedicated permanent way vehicles.

    The other depot is further south towards the M7. This is the ICR depot. It's pretty much in a greenfield site and you won't see it unless you go looking.

    Aerial view, before the ICR depot was built. It's on the site further south.
    sHOPY.jpg

    View of the PerWayDept(O'Moore Park is on the same road)
    ZuKPl.jpg

    And a view of the ICR depot from the M7 over the mainline.
    MP9va.jpg


  • #84
    schemingbohemia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    BazNuge wrote: »
    Just booked my train to Cork for the weekend. €76. I know its only an extra €3 but goddammnit, I might as well drive.

    Any news on the Aircoach or any other service?

    Do you mind me asking why you only booked your ticket today? If you had done so on Tuesday you could have availed of the 15% off on this thread

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056159198&page=33

    If you had booked a few weeks ago you would have got it a lot more cheaply.


  • #85
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,720 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    It's not dissimilar to Dublin Bus. Many people eschew both the Travel 90 ticket (which has been advertised on bus shelters and on the sides of buses) and the LEAP card, both of which offer discounts on cash fares, and still insist on paying cash.

    There are a certain number of people who just don't bother looking for cheaper alternatives for whatever reason.


  • #86
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    The 16.35 Waterford train today has absolutely nothing not a sign or announcement inside or out to tell any intending passengers what train it is or where it is going! God help anyone who may have got on the train thinking it was the limerick or galway train! Carriage B is numbered 22443, also the limerick train before it has gon through with a smashed outer window in the 2nd carriage. I would have thought the seats near that window should be cleared but obviously not?

    No wonder people are deserting the trains for cars and buses!


  • #87
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,835 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    The 16.35 Waterford train today has absolutely nothing not a sign or announcement inside or out to tell any intending passengers what train it is or where it is going! God help anyone who may have got on the train thinking it was the limerick or galway train! Carriage B is numbered 22443, also the limerick train before it has gon through with a smashed outer window in the 2nd carriage. I would have thought the seats near that window should be cleared but obviously not?

    No wonder people are deserting the trains for cars and buses!

    No lights turned on till Nass and only becasue somebody told the driver, there was on PA announcement in Kilkenny saying Kilkenny and the only reason for this was because the diver moved ends, nothing after that and the outside/inside displys said out of serivce in Kilkenny. No Air condition on either. Driver was going a lot slower so he would not be in stations to early and have to wait until the scheduled departure time and particually between Dublin-Athy.
    if those figures are accurate they bear out what many of us have been saying.

    The figures are published on the 2030 reports
    Carriage B is numbered 22443,

    Whole train number was 22043. What made it more confusing for passengers was a 3 car saying out of service on 7 and the 16.35 in front just say A-F on the displys.


  • #88
    Jehuty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    Sounds like the driver joined the train at the last minute at Heuston and just took off instead of properly preparing the train.


  • #89
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    No lights turned on till Nass and only becasue somebody told the driver, there was on PA announcement in Kilkenny saying Kilkenny and the only reason for this was because the diver moved ends, nothing after that and the outside/inside displys said out of serivce in Kilkenny. No Air condition on either. Driver was going a lot slower so he would not be in stations to early and have to wait until the scheduled departure time and particually between Dublin-Athy.
    Were you on a Waterford-Heuston train or the 16.35 Heuston-Waterford which was a 6 car intercity set? I didn't notice the train any slower than usual and got out in Carlow so don't know if the train made it out of Carlow station. Also the stop for Naas is in Sallins which is a few miles from Naas.

    Whole train number was 22043. What made it more confusing for passengers was a 3 car saying out of service on 7 and the 16.35 in front just say A-F on the displys.
    What do you mean?


  • #90
    Jehuty42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Jehuty42


    6-car sets are often parked on top of(uncoupled) 3-car sets at Heuston. The 6-car leaves, then the 3-car leaves on another service. The full 9 cars come down from Portlaoise and then split on Heuston platform.

    When no destination is set , the default setting for the external CIS screens on the 22000s just show the carriage letter(A-F).

    I think 22043 is a 6-car, maybe I'm wrong.


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  • #91
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Jehuty42 wrote: »
    Sounds like the driver joined the train at the last minute at Heuston and just took off instead of properly preparing the train.
    Is that safe or even permitted? if the driver didn't bother with things like lights and displays and air-conditioning what were the safety checks before departure like?


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