WRH smoke free zone

merlante · 23-02-2012 01:27PM

calerbass wrote: »

Hi there, I think i should put the record straight with WRH and its new smoking ban.

First of all, i laughed and laughed when i heard of this new ban.

The reasons being is that i worked in WRH for over ten years, and was involved in the introduction of the smoking ban etc.

Now...........when the smoking ban became law, the management and the environmental officers based on the Cork road, whose job it was to follow up on complaints, were shown and identified culprits that were smoking inside the building, told me that their will never be anyone prosecuted for smoking in WRH because and i quote " we will be only prosecuting our own, that being the manager of the hospital - <snip>" so their you go...........remember they are investigating their selves, those environmental officers are all ex nurses.
So they will never be anyone prosecuted in WRH for smoking and the only people that will be tortured will be the security staff, chasing people and getting hassle for it, when the crowd on the cork road are supposed to be doing it. I would only hope that the security staff kick up over this, because the people meant to do the job wont be doing it.

Further to that, if anyone wants to do an FOI, their has been nobody ever been prosecuted in Ireland for smoking in a hospital, it really was a law to screw the pubs.

Im all for no-smoking, but they are'nt half making fools of people.

They would make you sick.

All that being the case, if it is the case, in 5-10 years time, smoking in hospitals will seem like barbarism. If you had to employ more 'police' every time you brought in a new law, there'd never be any new laws. The point is that people are mainly self-policing. Look at the pubs. Try light up inside of Geoffs nowadays and people would look at you like you were pissing into a bucket. (And rightly so.) Sooner or later people fall into line, and old die-hards retire/move on/give up.

calerbass · 23-02-2012 02:17PM

merlante wrote: »

All that being the case, if it is the case, in 5-10 years time, smoking in hospitals will seem like barbarism. If you had to employ more 'police' every time you brought in a new law, there'd never be any new laws. The point is that people are mainly self-policing. Look at the pubs. Try light up inside of Geoffs nowadays and people would look at you like you were pissing into a bucket. (And rightly so.) Sooner or later people fall into line, and old die-hards retire/move on/give up.

You can be sure its the case......Whats going to pan out in WRH is that the security officers on low pay will be scurrying around trying to prevent the smoking, while the people getting paid to do the job with tax payers money sit back.

Self regulation never and does nt work in Ireland.......solicitors,gardai, the church, all examples.

And as sure as night follows day, their never has and never will be a prosecution for smoking in WRH, guranteed.

Hypocrisy..stand up and take a bow.;)

Cabaal · 23-02-2012 03:16PM

200motels wrote: »

They won't be able to enforce it as it's not a law. And all the non smokers out there get off your high horses and stop telling people who enjoy smoking what to do, they are after all a legal product and highly addictive.

err yes they can very much enforce it,

The hospital grounds are not a public space, its not comparable to walking down the street.

If the hospital want to restrict something on their own grounds they can do so and its perfectly legal, for example parking or if they didn't want people skateboarding on its grounds they can also do this.

They can do this in the same manner as a shopping centre can, it doesn't have to be law but if its private property owned by them (in this case the HSE) they can do what they want.

The request and the want to impose a ban on smoking on hospital grounds is very very reasonable when you consider the proven factual harm that smoking causes to people and those that inhale second hand smoke.

Nypd · 23-02-2012 03:24PM

It stills seems to be a far fetched plan,
Fair enough they will put it into security's remit to enforce.
Wonder how they will in force it on the next old lady who sparks up, I can see it now, granny's being restrained and escorted off the premises.

mathepac · 23-02-2012 07:21PM

Nypd wrote: »

... I can see it now, granny's being restrained and escorted off the premises.

Ah yes, the headline straight from Ireland's dimwits' daily, The Star

merlante · 23-02-2012 07:39PM

calerbass wrote: »

You can be sure its the case......Whats going to pan out in WRH is that the security officers on low pay will be scurrying around trying to prevent the smoking, while the people getting paid to do the job with tax payers money sit back.

Self regulation never and does nt work in Ireland.......solicitors,gardai, the church, all examples.

And as sure as night follows day, their never has and never will be a prosecution for smoking in WRH, guranteed.

Hypocrisy..stand up and take a bow.;)

Sure there are hardly ever any prosecutions for pubs because of smoking. How many raids do you think the gards carry out every week in pubs for smoking? I'll tell you. Zero. Because when society moves on, people regulate themselves. In the case of corruption in the professions, they are not regulated by the society because nobody knows what they're up to, so you need to put measures in place to regulate them explicitly.

calerbass · 23-02-2012 08:59PM

merlante wrote: »

Sure there are hardly ever any prosecutions for pubs because of smoking. How many raids do you think the gards carry out every week in pubs for smoking? I'll tell you. Zero. Because when society moves on, people regulate themselves. In the case of corruption in the professions, they are not regulated by the society because nobody knows what they're up to, so you need to put measures in place to regulate them explicitly.

I don't think you understand how the smoking issue works, its not the gardai's job to raid pubs for smoking breaches, their are environmental officers working for the HSE that do the investigating for smoking breaches, they don't raid the pubs, they will go to a pub and slip into the darker quieter corners of the pub, and then pop up and say you nabbed when the person lights up. But.....its the owner of the pub thats prosecuted, hence.....why you will never see a prosecution in WRH for smoking because their all the one!

Regarding no pubs being prosecuted, your wrong, the pubs were the only establishments they targeted in the first place as well as the odd taxi, bus driver etc.

calerbass · 23-02-2012 09:02PM

mathepac wrote: »

Ah yes, the headline straight from Ireland's dimwits' daily, The Star

An even better headline would be "security officers doing HSE's environmental officers job in WRH":D

Nypd · 23-02-2012 09:26PM

calerbass wrote: »

mathepac wrote: »

Ah yes, the headline straight from Ireland's dimwits' daily, The Star

An even better headline would be "security officers doing HSE's environmental officers job in WRH":D

HSE henchmen assault smoking war hero

wmpdd3 · 24-02-2012 01:15AM

I had a baby out there a few weeks and it was the main subject of conversation on the ward.

I dont smoke and I was asked to 'keep an eye' on a baby while a woman went down for a cigarette. It was before visiting hours so she had noone else to do it.

I said no, I could bearly look after my own.

She was only going to the front door, imagine if she was going to the gates?

Anyway, the patients out there were agreed that they'd move their cars as close to the door as possible and smoke in them.... and then put their babies in them to bring them home!

I used to smoke and I would have signed myself out of hospital if I still did and had to stay in for 3 days.

My elderely neighbour smoked in the bathrooms there 3 years ago.

spookwoman · 24-02-2012 01:19AM

Who's idea was it to have the smoking area in front of the front doors in the first place? At least have a designated area for smokers away from the building and have shelter. Elderly patients are now being forced to walk over a hundred yards to have a fag. They are not going to give up the smokes at that age and why should they. What will happen if a patient falls on the grounds while heading out for a fag a the front gate?

looksee · 24-02-2012 01:31AM

I was in hospital (not WRH) having my last baby - who is now 25 - and was in a 'semi-private' ward with one other patient.

On more than one occasion the curtains were pulled right across creating an enclosure of half the room, some half a dozen women including the mother, were in this 'tent', along with the baby - and they were smoking.

It was not illegal at the time and no-one did anything about it, though I did grumble to a nurse about it.

Now fast forward 25 years and that seems incredible, but at the time it was not even commented on, and I had no rights in the matter. We are making progress though, and this ban by WRH is just another step along the way.

wmpdd3 · 24-02-2012 02:15AM

14 years ago there was a smoking room in the maternity ward in wrh!

Nypd · 24-02-2012 02:17AM

looksee wrote: »

I was in hospital (not WRH) having my last baby - who is now 25 - and was in a 'semi-private' ward with one other patient.

On more than one occasion the curtains were pulled right across creating an enclosure of half the room, some half a dozen women including the mother, were in this 'tent', along with the baby - and they were smoking.

It was not illegal at the time and no-one did anything about it, though I did grumble to a nurse about it.

Now fast forward 25 years and that seems incredible, but at the time it was not even commented on, and I had no rights in the matter. We are making progress though, and this ban by WRH is just another step along the way.

It's mad alright hearing stories like that, I agree totally that a hospital is no place for smoking.
Having read the replies here iv made up my mind and don't agree with the total smoking ban.
Main points that I have made my decision is that
1. It could have easily be contained to an area away from the front door, non smokers have the right not to be subjected to passive smoking.
2. Patients having to travel to the main gate for a smoke, they are exposed to the elements and probably not fit to cover that distance

mathepac · 24-02-2012 06:03AM

Nypd wrote: »

... Main points that I have made my decision is that
1. It could have easily be contained to an area away from the front door, non smokers have the right not to be subjected to passive smoking.
...

Where smoking areas are supplied they are not being used, resulting in accumulations of rubbish (paper cups, sandwich wrappers, crisp packets, sweet wrappers, etc) as well as cigarette butts in the areas chosen by the smokers, often in proximity to the main entrance. Examples from personal experience are:

The Coombe, Dublin
UHG, both the main entrance and the one around the side beside the lifts, the entrances to the Children's Hospital, the Maternity Unit and the Acute Psych Unit
OLCH, Crumlin, the main entrance where ambulances deliver and pick up sick children and the granite steps leasing to the old main entrance
St Luke's Kilkenny and Kilcreene Hospital

Anecdotally the problem is a huge one at other hospitals, a combination of laziness and selfishness on the part of the smokers and indifference and a lack of enforcement by management. I have sheaves of complaint letters written, resulting in zero action.

Nypd wrote: »

... 2. Patients having to travel to the main gate for a smoke, they are exposed to the elements and probably not fit to cover that distance

I would argue that the walk and the fresh air might be of some benefit if the patients are ambulatory; if they are not ambulatory then staff need to intervene and make arrangements appropriate to the patient's condition and resource constraints.

Nypd · 24-02-2012 09:19AM

mathepac wrote: »

Where smoking areas are supplied they are not being used

Iwould argue that the walk and the fresh air might be of some benefit if the patients are ambulatory; if they are not ambulatory then staff need to intervene and make arrangements appropriate to the patient's condition and resource constraints.

Which asks the questions, if systems are in place and not being enforced already, will they even bother enforcing a much bigger policy, acting only to wind up staunch anti smokers.

Sorry your argument about it being good for the patients to walk to me is ridiculous, why should they be subjected to standing out on a road way in dressing gowns and possibly with IV's attached.

Jamerican · 24-02-2012 09:53AM

wmpdd3 wrote: »

I had a baby out there a few weeks and it was the main subject of conversation on the ward.

I dont smoke and I was asked to 'keep an eye' on a baby while a woman went down for a cigarette. It was before visiting hours so she had noone else to do it.

I said no, I could bearly look after my own.

She was only going to the front door, imagine if she was going to the gates?

Anyway, the patients out there were agreed that they'd move their cars as close to the door as possible and smoke in them.... and then put their babies in them to bring them home!

I used to smoke and I would have signed myself out of hospital if I still did and had to stay in for 3 days.

My elderely neighbour smoked in the bathrooms there 3 years ago.

This really bothers me. I am due in a few weeks, and if a mom asked me to watch her child while she went for a cigarette I would be disgusted. Clearly she didn't think of the well being of her child enough to stop smoking during her pregnancy or to watch her own damn child. I would never dream of asking some random stranger to watch my newly born child, while I went for a smoke, drink, etc. That is so disturbing.

I worked for one of the largest hospitals/schools in the states and it went smoke free too. About five times the size of WRH, so there was no easy escape if you wanted a smoke. You did see the random person lighting up, but for the most part everyone self regulated. There was no need for extra security, and you rarely saw a security guard. WRH will be fine, people will grumble but in a year no one will know of a different way.

Cabaal · 24-02-2012 09:54AM

Nypd wrote: »

Sorry your argument about it being good for the patients to walk to me is ridiculous, why should they be subjected to standing out on a road way in dressing gowns and possibly with IV's attached.

How about the argument that if they are not very mobile and they can't make it to the gates then not smoking will actually be good for them?

Hospital exist to make people better, hospitals do not exist to facilitate an addictive and dangerous habit.

I find this thread amusing, with people claiming "it'll never work", "they can't do that", "imagine the headlines", "I'll smoke anyway" etc, at this stage its actually pretty amusing.

Even just in my lifetime I've seen the war against smoking in this country been won at every corner, regardless of what smokers claim they'll do anyway they have lost every battle.

Examples of this are:

- Smoking on buses, used to be allowed but when the bans came in we all had to listen to "I'll smoke anyway etc etc".

- Smoking carriages on trains (we all had to listen to such gems as "its not fair that they expect people to be on a train for 1-3hours and not smoke anymore")

- Smoking in pubs/workplaces, oh we all heard the people claim they'd do this and that and smoke anyway, sure you might have some pubs do lock ins that allow smoking after hours etc but we certainly don't see those smokers light up like they claimed they would.

Now we have this, not smoking in the grounds of WRH a large hospital, a natural progression and one that will happen. The grounds belong to WRH so they can ban smoking if they wish, there doesn't have to be a law in place for them to do so.

Its also worth noting that while person they can't prosecute people for smoking under the law they can for littering and given they'll no longer be facilities in place to smoke if you drop that butt then you can be fined.

Also no facilities in the form of shelters means smokers will have to enjoy all the changes of mother nature in the form of wind, rain, snow etc, this will put off other smokers.

In time while people will bitch and moan this is yet another battle that will be lost by smokers, why?

Because society now see;s it as a socially unacceptable habit. We've gone from a age where you could smoke everywhere and i mean everywhere...planes, buses, hospital wards, government buildings, offices etc to a society that is aiming to basically ban smoking outright and this will happen in time.

If you even said to people in the mid 90's that by 2005 smoking will be banned in all Irish pub they never would have believed you, but just look what happened. The same goes for the ban on buses.

Don't expect a ban on smoking in WRH to be the last ban in place, it wouldn't surprise me one but if you'll see a ban on smoking in public parks like St Stephens Green & People's Park etc over time, sure it might take 10 or 15 years but we'll likely follow what has happened in other countrys.

deisemum · 24-02-2012 09:57AM

wmpdd3 wrote: »

14 years ago there was a smoking room in the maternity ward in wrh!

I had a lad there 14 years ago too and the smoking room was near the entrance to the postnatal ward opposite the nursery. It was a busy room and when you entered the ward the smell of smoke would hit you.

I now think it looks awful when you're going past the hospital to see groups of people smoking at the gates and footpath entrance. I hope the hospital put bins in place to avoid litter blackspots as I've seen some people having cans of soft drinks, bars of chocolate while out for a smoke.

ROCKMAN · 24-02-2012 11:03AM

wmpdd3 wrote: »

I had a baby out there a few weeks and it was the main subject of conversation on the ward.

I dont smoke and I was asked to 'keep an eye' on a baby while a woman went down for a cigarette. It was before visiting hours so she had noone else to do it.

I said no, I could bearly look after my own.

She was only going to the front door, imagine if she was going to the gates?

Anyway, the patients out there were agreed that they'd move their cars as close to the door as possible and smoke in them.... and then put their babies in them to bring them home!

I used to smoke and I would have signed myself out of hospital if I still did and had to stay in for 3 days.

My elderely neighbour smoked in the bathrooms there 3 years ago.

Ok thats any interesting point , What can the hospital do if a patient or vistor goes and smokes in their own car in the parking lot ,
Wouldn't you then be in your own property ? ??

abouttobebanned · 24-02-2012 11:06AM

If you were in your car in someone else's driveway, you'd be considered to be in their property so I'd imagine the same would apply here.

ROCKMAN · 24-02-2012 11:20AM

abouttobebanned wrote: »

If you were in your car in someone else's driveway, you'd be considered to be in their property so I'd imagine the same would apply here.

OK i may be getting a bit carried away here , but to be devils advocate for a minute ,You would have paid for the use of the car space you are parked in so surely that would make it yours in a way for the duration of your stay(bit like a short term tenant ) and MAY GIVE YOU ARE FEW RIGHTS

To much ...................

abouttobebanned · 24-02-2012 11:32AM

It's an interesting angle alright...

ROCKMAN · 24-02-2012 11:36AM

abouttobebanned wrote: »

It's an interesting angle alright...

Think we'll find out ,Because it will definitely be tried

Aruba08 · 24-02-2012 12:18PM

Jamerican wrote: »

This really bothers me. I am due in a few weeks, and if a mom asked me to watch her child while she went for a cigarette I would be disgusted.

im due in a few weeks too with my fourth and I would flat out say now. I was a smoker and I dont care what you do in your home, etc but the smell in a post natal ward after some mothers go for a smoke or even their visitors is just not fair.

Was in there the other day and there are still loads of people ignoring the new rule. It needs to be enforced

spookwoman · 24-02-2012 03:10PM

Yes its banned in pubs etc but they have smoking areas outside. Same with workplaces you can go outside to an area. You have a choice to go to the pub, airport etc. Most have no choice but to go into hospital to get treated.

Cabaal · 24-02-2012 03:39PM

spookwoman wrote: »

You have a choice to go to the pub, airport etc.

Many people would disagree with you there,

There are many many people that don't have cars and must use public transport and yet they can't smoke on trains and buses like you could in the 80's and 90's, ah sure I suppose thats not fair also.
:rolleyes:

Why should the hospital make it any easier for people to slowly kill themselves by smoking, if you want to kill yourself in this manner then do it at home, the hospitals job is to look after you and make you better.

Cabaal · 24-02-2012 03:46PM

spookwoman wrote: »

Yes its banned in pubs etc but they have smoking areas outside. Same with workplaces you can go outside to an area. You have a choice to go to the pub, airport etc. Most have no choice but to go into hospital to get treated.

Why should the hospital make it any easier for people to slowly kill themselves by smoking, if you want to kill yourself in this manner then do it at home, the hospitals job is to look after you and make you better.

If people having a drinking problem should a hospital also allow them to drink on its grounds?

Smoking is an addiction the same as drinking can be, its not for the hospital to accommodate somebody's addiction anymore especially when the health issues with smoking are very well proven.

spookwoman · 24-02-2012 03:49PM

Bus trips etc dont take days. Also stress levels increase while in hospital, most people don't like being there.
There is not that must of a difference in numbers between smoking and alcohol related deaths.

mathepac · 24-02-2012 04:39PM

@spookwoman - You'll need to check your facts and statistics. Alcohol kills more people in Ireland that all other drugs combined. Tobacco products are second on the list.

WRH smoke free zone

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