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Mod chips and retro consoles, the moral choice?

  • 23-02-2012 06:53PM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 388 ✭✭


    Ok so legal standpoints aside would you buy and use a mod chip's or similar devices for your older consoles with the intention of pirating older games?

    Ive just recently ordered a mod chip for my Gamecube for obvious reasons and the moral side of me crept up during the night and said "Should you really pirate these games" my frugal side beat the moral side of me to an inch of its life with my empty wallet soon after but I'm just wondering where a mod chip fits into most retro collections?


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭Sparks43


    Mod chip legal
    its your console so if you wanted to smash it thats fine too

    Piracy is immoral illegal stupid and it will make you go to hell :mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 388 ✭✭johnboysligo


    Sparks43 wrote: »
    Piracy is immoral illegal stupid and it will make you go to hell :mad:

    Hang on a minute here these games are (for lack of a better phrase) out of print so its not like the companies who own the games will get any money from the sale of second hand games should I or anyone else build a "legit" collection. plus use a , otherwise you're just calling me stupid and I might just cry cause the big man from the interweb insulted me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    I tend to justify the use of said chips for trying out games, likely expensive ones, that I honestly don't know if I'd like or not. If I do, I buy them, if not, I consider it a lesson learned.

    Also there are other perfectly legitimate uses such as regional exclusives which will become available to you, & also fan translations are a big thing too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 614 ✭✭✭djsim101


    This is an interesting one indeed. I have always, and will always contiune to buy and build on my retro and new age collection.

    However........ I have been known to play one or two backups. For instanse, my beloved Saturn. Import games can cost an arm and a leg, while it is pretty easy to source these games online in digital format.

    Its like running mame and playing the roms,isn't that illegal as well...and lets be honest, everyone does it. :pac:


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 53,288 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    I say there's nothinh wrong with it. These games are unavailable to you anyway and the money isn't going to the developers or publishers, it's going to some random bloke on ebay. If the game gets rereleased on something like PSN or XBLA then I'll buy it but otherwise there's no other way to give your money to the original devs.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭Sparks43


    Hang on a minute here these games are (for lack of a better phrase) out of print so its not like the companies who own the games will get any money from the sale of second hand games should I or anyone else build a "legit" collection. plus use a , otherwise you're just calling me stupid and I might just cry cause the big man from the interweb insulted me.

    Jaysis no wonder Paul Cook pissed back over to England :D


    *For the A+R members who dont know football Paul Cook was the Ex Manager of Sligo Rovers he didnt like boulder dash so good riddance i say


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 34,753 CMod ✭✭✭✭CiDeRmAn


    Oddly enough, I don't tend to mod-chip older consoles, except to region mod them.
    So thats why the PS and the MD are chipped, the Saturn in chipped because there is a multitude of games out there, from Japan, that I'll never be able to afford, and I want to play them.
    I have a chipped Wii for homebrew and because the bulk of the games on it are pants, I have spent enough money on games over the years so I don't feel guilty at all.
    Neither the PS2 or 360 are chipped, I'm happy to buy games as per normal.
    The PS3, when it was alive, wasn't altered in anyway either.

    My experience with the PSone back when it was just the PS was that I ended up with a stack of games on CD-Rs and ended playing few of them, they being valueless as I didn't have any investment in them, aside from the cost of a black CD, same thing happened the first time with the Xbox and DC, ended up with massive collections of seldom played games.

    Now I mostly buy games and much happier I am too....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,971 ✭✭✭✭K.O.Kiki


    Modchips, software piracy & emulation are morally sound.

    Because if we didn't have them, all those programs on floppy disks would be gone, forever, due to DRM and publishers' unwillingness to work with libraries.

    Great article on PCWorld blog


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,422 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    1 - If it's a mass produced console worth absolutely nothing more than the plastic it's made of - yes of course. Modding it is no loss to anyone.

    2 - If it's a super rare console with a bit of history/importance associated with it then no way.

    If you're talking about morals, feck morals, second hand sales don't go to anyone involved with the game.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 3,184 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dr Bob


    From a collector point of view I'll always try and buy originals.
    From a "moral" point of view , I'll generally use "teh Romz" if
    a/ I own the original
    b/ I own a non working original.
    c/ the owner has made it freeware
    d/I own a new media copy of it (i.e. ps2,xbox arcade compilations, VC, PSN etc)
    e/ ok if its a super rare out of print japanese game that I have no hope of buying I might emulate it , but if I can get a reasonabley priced copy I will try and pick it up.
    What with the youtube channel and all I try and stick to those rules if I can, an example is when I wanted to show the MAME arcade version of Outrun, I was able to justify it with a copy if Shenmue 2 , which has a modified copy of the outrun rom included (it has all the ferrari stuff removed btw)as part of the game.
    Thats all from an ethical point of view though legally all the roms out there are pretty much illegal , in fact in a lot of cases selling or buying a second hand copy of a game is ileagal too (usually something in the legal blurb at the end of the manual , in fairness though I dont think this is something that'd ever hold up in court in most countries..)

    Oh yeah , in a few case the companies that made the games still exist and actually keep an eye out for the copyrighted works , some ..like Bill hogue will let you download it for free..others like First star , still actually sell the games (yes..Boulderdash!!)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,395 ✭✭✭Doge


    Hang on a minute here these games are (for lack of a better phrase) out of print so its not like the companies who own the games will get any money from the sale of second hand games should I or anyone else build a "legit" collection. plus use a , otherwise you're just calling me stupid and I might just cry cause the big man from the interweb insulted me.


    Your sarcasm detector seemed to be offline when reading his post!

    But yeah,
    nobody involved Nintendo will profiteer from you buying Gamecube games these days.

    There's absolutely no need to feel guilty.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 388 ✭✭johnboysligo


    waveform wrote: »
    Your sarcasm detector seemed to be offline when reading his post!

    Yours seems to be on the blink as well, Lidl sarcasm detectors eh good for nothing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Yours seems to be on the blink as well, Lidl sarcasm detectors eh good for nothing.

    My one isn't the best but it works sometimes. I got it in Aldi


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,422 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Buying sarcasm detectors in German stores? Probably not the best ideas..:P


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,729 ✭✭✭The Last Bandit


    If the console is out of support and no longer a revenue source for the company then mod away - otherwise its battle for your own internal moral calculator to figure out.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think there are two parts to this argument. Current gen and older gen games. When it comes to current gen games, the attitude i have for the most part is to support the developers. I'll buy the majority of my games new, keep the ones i love and that i know I'll play again, and trade the rest if they're not worth keeping for replay value or whatever. I don't rip off people who are developing for the current hardware. That way the best developers make money, and the standard of development for the current platforms is kept high. I WILL look for good value, but i WON'T break copyright to do it.

    But here's the thing. Games are expensive and buying all new for every system that's ever been out there just isn't an option, so once something is past-gen or retro, and the revenue stream has by and large dried up for the developer i have absolutely no problem with people keeping a game alive by using backed up or downloaded copies of it. In fact, the argument could even be made that the rise of emulation and modding has actually helped developers to make new money off of otherwise long dead IPs and fund their newer, more expensive projects, thus strengthening the industry as a whole.

    Look at Capcom as an example. Capcom , for anyone who doesn't know, is a past master at selling the same IP multiple times to the same customers (the street fighter series is a prime example). Their arcade 8 and 16 bit fighting and platforming titles have had a huge re-interest level of late, and they have a whole bunch of compilation, re-issue, anniversary, re-jig, HD-remix, and so on titles out.

    These games are turning a profit for them off the back of arcade titles from 20 odd years ago, for a minimal cost, and many people argue that game-buying punters in general would never have had enough interest in them even justify them being re-released if it wasn't for projects like MAME, etc. sparking people's interest in retro games over the last few years.

    I couldn't tell you how many different versions (and i mean LEGIT versions, not rip-offs) of the different street fighter games I've bought for multiple platforms down the years. I still up to recently bought re-issues of the exact same games to take advantage of HD, or Xbox live or whatever, despite there being a slew of emulators, backups, and freely available roms online. That's because I'm paying for access to the community to play them with, not just the games themselves, and the community is usually found on the newest releases.

    I'm a good example of a Capcom fan, and Capcom have made an absolute bag of money off me over the last 20 years. My sad financial compulsions aside though, the key point here in relation to emulation and backups, is this:

    The street fighter community's interest in their series was kept alive for a good ten years plus (the hiatus between 1999 and 2009 when the fighting game craze had been regarded as dead) by emulation, illegal downloads, backups, mame cabs, modded consoles, and many other things that break licensing laws before street fighter 4 came along and made capcom an absolute fortune in 2009 and rejuvinated the genre totally. Capcom made loads more street fighter money off of the same crowd of buyers again, as well as getting a whole load of new ones into their net.

    I bought Street fighter 4. For 2 consoles, so i could play against EVERYBODY. And i bought it's sequel. And the DLC costumes, and the next sequel, and the DLC costumes for that, and so on and so on, and it's very likely that had i not been still playing street fighter on roms and backups for the last ten years i would have completely forgotten about the series and gone and spent my money on something sensible, like a holiday, or a new bathroom suite or something...

    I think companies like capcom are well aware of this phenomenon, and are quite happy with the status quo of losing small amounts of revenue on the emulation and backup of their old games to keep their intellectual properties active and kicking and keep people interested in what they do, and basically "on their hook".

    So i say go for it. If the industry only stands to gain from it, and they don't see a moral dilemma with backups and emulation, then why should anyone else?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 34,753 CMod ✭✭✭✭CiDeRmAn


    Oh, look...

    We all love games

    Games cost money

    Unless you get them for free, stealing them online and nobody can see

    Then you get to have the same experience playing them as everyone who paid

    Which is nice

    If you are faced with the choice of softmodding your Wii in 20mins and playing virtually any game released on it within a few hours of that, sure you'd be mad not to.

    Other consoles are more challenging, so we settle to just buy preowned where we can, which is almost as bad as piracy to the publishers as they make no money from preowned sales, hence why they are sticking in Online Passes, hobbling the games if you are the 2nd owner.

    Some consoles are a pain to copy games for, the PS2, the 360, the PS3.
    Some consoles are not worth the effort, PS1, games are plentiful and cheap, MD and Snes, the same.
    Some consoles are naturally hard to copy games for, the N64 for example.

    So, to recap, we all love to get something for very little or for nothing, and morals have nothing to do with it.
    Those that can run dodgy games do, to the limits of what they can accept, labour-wise, modding their console/buying flash carts, the expense of same, the consequences for online bans etc.
    Those that don't either don't find the games prohibitively expensive or lack the knowledge to mod or get modded their console.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Why does a modchip automatically mean piracy? Look at Pyongyang for example, a gamer with morals who had a 360 glitched so he can play his legitimately owned jap exclusives.

    When it comes to region locking, I'll go with modding every. single. time.

    When it comes to piracy, I'd echo strongly what Mack Daddi wrote. Take Panzer Dragoon for example. Would someone be justified in burning a copy of it, as opposed to paying an ebay seller huge money none of which the game devs will see? I suppose you could justify it that way.

    But the line should definitely be drawn at current gen stuff that's still being retailed.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 34,753 CMod ✭✭✭✭CiDeRmAn


    With current gen home consoles the 360 and, when I had one, the PS3 weren't touched, to be honest the decent games aren't innumerable and so I don't mind spending on them here and there, especially when they often get discounted heavily within a month of release.
    The Wii got modded to frak and, for a while, I had every game imaginable. But now I am buying those I loved and barely touch the stuff on the hdd anymore.
    The DS was the same, and now I am picking up the best on carts.

    You can't be called a collector, or an enthusiast, if you have a harddrive full of roms and isos, just doesn't wash.
    It'd be like considering yourself a book collector because your Kindle is stuffed with titles from Calibre... like mine! (I do have a considerable library as well)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,422 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    EnterNow wrote: »
    Take Panzer Dragoon for example. Would someone be justified in burning a copy of it, as opposed to paying an ebay seller huge money none of which the game devs will see? I suppose you could justify it that way.
    .

    That's a good example as there's literally no way of playing it other than buying the expensive original or burning a copy. And it's probably going to be that way until the end of time unless Sega decide to build it from the ground up all over again.

    You cannot really apply morals in that situation at all. In fact, it's probably more moral to play the burned copy than to pay a reseller far more than the games original value. It's all very muddy.

    Although I'd far rather play original copies of everything (I do a Pyong sniff every time Panzer Dragoon Saga comes out :D) I also play backups on the consoles I have modded. Why? Because I cannot possibly afford every single game I want to play. The same thing happened to me with music. If you truely want to appreciate the medium then you have to get your hands on roms and burned discs. Either that or win the lottery!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭lasersquad


    Hi folks, 1st post (of sorts)

    My two cents:

    There`s lots of misconceptions around the subject. Many stem from publisher propaganda and are also massively affected by one`s wallet size.

    My take is, as long as you do contribute by buying new games in general - and that`s proportional to anybody`s means (some can afford 10 new releases a month, some 1 in three) - there`s nothing wrong with crossing over to the Dark Side. As long as you don`t stay there permanently, or keep some sort of balance, that is. The old chestnut about "I wouldn`t buy it anyway" is true, in a way. Well, at least if the reason is "I couldn`t afford it" or "It`s out of print" or "it goes on for gazillion on ebay"...

    There are also positives - it propagates the medium in general, can be a sort of advertising in the long run, some old "pirates" (yours truly) who in some point couldn`t afford anything then turn into buyers, sometime significant ones. And so on.

    There`s also lots of hype and hypocrisy around. For example, the "poor" publishers who harp on about the damage are usually the most minted ones. This industry has been around for 30+ years and so was piracy - and yet it`s not "dying", last I`ve checked. Rather to the contrary, with certain titles raking in hundreds of millions and the likes of steam having billions of turnover.

    The other thing is it`s quite often the pubs are the ones who exploit devs and are the reason for codeshops toppling. Read sagas of Team Bondi, Rockstar`s Wives etc, crunchtimes and suits running the show, killing off creativity. These days it`s Double Fine`s Kickstarter & Firaxis going-boldly-with-TB-XCoM that raise a smile, not day one DLC for ME3. Well, at least for me ;)

    I grew up in Poland where up till the end of the Nineties 99% of soft was pirated. Same for the rest of EE. And yet, look at it now - award winning codeshops and lots of game sales. You like that GOG, Arma, The Witcher, Stalker? Well, all former pirates. On perhaps smaller scale i`m sure it was the same in the West. Here`s an interview with one of my all-time heroes: The Burger - co-creator of The Bard`s Tale/Neuromancer, with mention of her beginnings reverse engineering carts back in the days: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134614/the_burger_speaks_an_interview_.php?page=1

    Anyway. Interesting subject ;) Just to say, it`s my opinion - I`m not looking to "justify" this or anything, I`m quite comfortable with it. I posted here because so far the tone was quite open minded and without the usual knives-out attitude, hope it stays that way ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,103 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    I'm interested in this Gamecube modchip you speak of.

    What does it do for you and your Gamecube?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 388 ✭✭johnboysligo


    I'm interested in this Gamecube modchip you speak of.

    What does it do for you and your Gamecube?

    Well for me it saves me oodles of money, for the gamecube it emulates the dvd drive meaning game can load an the SD card


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,103 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    Got any links to this?

    My Gamecube is currently gathering dust, but if I could play any game I want on it, it could be brought out of retirement.

    Does it work with the GB player?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Well for me it saves me oodles of money, for the gamecube it emulates the dvd drive meaning game can load an the SD card

    Is that the Gecko thingy?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 388 ✭✭johnboysligo


    Wii Key Fusion if you must know. it is designed for a wii but with modification it can work with the gamecube. (electronically a wii is a gamecube redesigned)

    EDIT
    Does it work with the GB player?

    You would only replace the GB player disc not the hardware but it should work. Id imagine there is a totally software GB advance emulator for the gamecube somewhere.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,395 ✭✭✭Doge


    o1s1n wrote: »
    Buying sarcasm detectors in German stores? Probably not the best ideas..:P

    Classic! :D


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 34,753 CMod ✭✭✭✭CiDeRmAn


    I have a Gecko here somewhere, not used....
    Is it worth something to someone???
    Mwa hahaha!

    The Gameboy Player is pretty sweet, I got mine bolted to the underside of an NTSC Gamecube for frak all at a market, the guy selling it wasn't aware it was there.
    The disc was missing however but a quick trip to ebay fixed that and it is very impressive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Dale Parish


    I'v a xbox with some sort of panel for bank switching on the front of it with an X as the logo. Anyone know what this is/does?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,912 ✭✭✭Steve X2


    I'v a xbox with some sort of panel for bank switching on the front of it with an X as the logo. Anyone know what this is/does?

    Switch panel for an xecuter 2.6 or similar modchip by the sounds of it.

    .


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