The myth of "give them a few digs and that'll learn 'em"

benway · 22-02-2012 11:17AM

connundrum wrote: »

Has anyone tried giving them a hug?

Has anyone tried building a fairer and more equal society? Because even those tree-huggers at the World Bank think that inequality, social exclusion and crime are closely related:

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DEC/Resources/Crime%26Inequality.pdf

Johnny Foreigner · 22-02-2012 02:18PM

MrStuffins wrote: »

So, having read threads on scumbags (and one recently posted), the old chestnut came out to play:

"So i'm being intimidated by a known scumbag in my area........."

"Just walk up to them, give them a few smacks and they'll never bother you again. They're like school bullies!".

I'd love to know how people can actually believe this rubbish! Yes, that is what you are told when you are a kid and are dealing with another bully kid! This kid is probably insecure and his insecurity probably comes out in the form of bullying. Show him you're tough and he might not wanna bother you.

But 21st Century scumbags are NOT school bullies. They are knife carrying, gun-totting, drug snorting scum of the earth! The last thing they're gonna stand for is being embarrassed by a guy they've tried to intimidate!

Why do people think that by standing up to these guys with their fists that will stop it? You hit them, they come back with a bat. You have a bat, they come back with a knife and that's how these scum bags work.

I understand a man's need to beat his chest and stand his ground. But does anyone REALLY believe that giving them a slap is really the end of things?

The retired ex-Provos will take care of this for you.

Captain Morgan Freeman · 22-02-2012 02:22PM

MrStuffins wrote: »

Pretty dangerous assumption to make. You don;t know the scumbags that I do obviously!

Indeed i don't. Im only talking about my own general area but most people i would class as scumbags wouldn't go as far as to stab anyone. They would give a lot of verbal abuse and perhaps throw a few punches but they wouldn't take the risk of getting charged with GBH.

That said i wouldn't just go punching scumbags if i had a problem with them like some crazed vigilante. I tend to stay away from all kinds of scumbags and don't give them any reason to bother me.

foxyboxer · 22-02-2012 02:27PM

Intimidation is open to definition here.

MrStuffins · 22-02-2012 05:34PM

Captain Morgan Freeman wrote: »

Indeed i don't. Im only talking about my own general area but most people i would class as scumbags wouldn't go as far as to stab anyone. They would give a lot of verbal abuse and perhaps throw a few punches but they wouldn't take the risk of getting charged with GBH.

That said i wouldn't just go punching scumbags if i had a problem with them like some crazed vigilante. I tend to stay away from all kinds of scumbags and don't give them any reason to bother me.

Well congratulations on living in a place where real scum don't live. The chances of finding one were slim, but congratulations!

Captain Morgan Freeman · 22-02-2012 05:46PM

MrStuffins wrote: »

Well congratulations on living in a place where real scum don't live. The chances of finding one were slim, but congratulations!

Well that's Galway city for you.

later12 · 23-02-2012 12:44AM

benway wrote: »

There's a set of tacit assumptions tacit assumptions in there - that the system is somehow "soft" or "lenient"

No, not necessarily that the system is lenient, but that the system is ineffecient and that those involved in public administration or the legal professions may be somewhat blind to such inefficiency on account of their separateness from the environment in which repeat offenders or ex prisoners may be likely to be found.

that "scumbags" as an identifiable group exists

I'm certainly not making that suggestion. Scumbags exist, but I'm not sure who is supposed to have said they must exist in a tangible, easily identifiable way. Perhaps you might clarify.

And, of course, there's that old chestnut that anyone who doesn't go in for hang 'em high is somehow cossetted away from the "real world". Personally, I live in north inner city Dublin, I'm from a dog rough midlands town, went to a dog-rough school, I have regular interactions with the criminal classes through work, and I have a masters in criminology ... but when it comes to crime, I'm supposedly the one who's detached from reality. :rolleyes:

Two points here.

(i) If you read my post that you quotes - or any post I have ever made in relation to prisoners on here - you'll see that I have nothing but sympathy for those who find themselves in the custody of the state as prisoners.
(ii)Bringing your own personal experience into the rational arguments that surround penal reform are of very limited value. This is the internet. I have spelled out my own experience in dealing with prisoners on this site in the past, but in hindsight I have come to the view that all of that is essentially irrelevant in terms of the internet.
The validity of your argument rests upon its logical and evidential capital, not by telling everyone else to listen to you because of what you claim to know or have experienced.

Fact is that prisoners' rights were more of an issue in the 80s, when the economic situation was equally bad to now. And even if prisons did become *ahem* schools of industry and virtue, I still don't think that prison will do a thing to reduce the crime rate.

Then I fear you don't appear to familiarise yourself with the evidence.

One recent evidence of a successful reduction in recidivism rates amongst young offenders is to be found in an evaluation of the role of sport in reducing reoffending rates at Portland Young Offender Institution in the United Kingdom

It found:
http://www.2ndchanceproject.co.uk/system/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/filemanager/files/Final_Rugby-Football_Report.pdf

Of the fifty participants who have been released over the past 18 months, nine have reoffended or been recalled to prison, representing an 18% reconviction rate (compared to a prison average of 48% after one year).
Statistically significant improvements were observed in established measures of conflict resolution, aggression, impulsivity, and attitudes towards offending following participation.
The initiative has enabled offenders and delivery staff to develop positive support and mentoring relationships, and has motivated individuals to take responsibility for their actions, and inspired them to generate positive aspirations for the future.

In the UK, Some of you probably don't want to hear this, but there's strong evidence to show crime is a function of societal problems like social exclusion and deprivation, seems that the best way to reduce crime will be to work towards a fairer and more equal society.

You seem to be arguing for the sake of argument here - I have already mentioned inequality as an underlying cause of criminal behaviour. In fact, that is why I emboldened positive aspirations in the excerpt from the findings of the evaluation report into the Portland Young Offenders' Institution: part of the problem with prisoners is that their expectations from life tend to be so low; creating schools of industry or schools of virtue by upskilling inmates and giving them something to aspire to may help reduce recidivism, which is what the major function of prisons ought to be.

Personally, I think it's the keyboard warriors who need to get real - it's just unreasoning hate most of the time.

I really think you must have approached this thread reading what you wanted to read, instead of what people are blatantly saying.

23-02-2012 12:51AM

MrStuffins wrote: »

I understand a man's need to beat his chest and stand his ground. But does anyone REALLY believe that giving them a slap is really the end of things?

You're right, the reality is that they have feck all to do all day so they're just thinking and acting on ways to intimidate/harm/scare you and your family. They have too much time on their hands to fight head on. While we go to college/work/training they're doing lines thinking of the best way to be back at you. Scum of the earth should be buried.

Wattle · 23-02-2012 01:00AM

Just learn a good martial art and kick that bat/knife/gun out of their hands and watch them scream like a little girl as you kick their head in.

LaFlammeRouge · 23-02-2012 01:03AM

later12 wrote: »

One recent evidence of a successful reduction in recidivism rates amongst young offenders is to be found in an evaluation of the role of sport in reducing reoffending rates at Portland Young Offender Institution in the United Kingdom

It found:
http://www.2ndchanceproject.co.uk/system/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/filemanager/files/Final_Rugby-Football_Report.pdf
Of the fifty participants who have been released over the past 18 months, nine have reoffended or been recalled to prison, representing an 18% reconviction rate (compared to a prison average of 48% after one year).

Statistically significant improvements were observed in established measures of conflict resolution, aggression, impulsivity, and attitudes towards offending following participation.

The initiative has enabled offenders and delivery staff to develop positive support and mentoring relationships, and has motivated individuals to take responsibility for their actions, and inspired them to generate positive aspirations for the future.

.

A study with 50 participants is not evidence of anything, it's just a waste of time.

billybudd · 23-02-2012 01:13AM

MrStuffins wrote: »

So, having read threads on scumbags (and one recently posted), the old chestnut came out to play:

"So i'm being intimidated by a known scumbag in my area........."

"Just walk up to them, give them a few smacks and they'll never bother you again. They're like school bullies!".

I'd love to know how people can actually believe this rubbish! Yes, that is what you are told when you are a kid and are dealing with another bully kid! This kid is probably insecure and his insecurity probably comes out in the form of bullying. Show him you're tough and he might not wanna bother you.

But 21st Century scumbags are NOT school bullies. They are knife carrying, gun-totting, drug snorting scum of the earth! The last thing they're gonna stand for is being embarrassed by a guy they've tried to intimidate!

Why do people think that by standing up to these guys with their fists that will stop it? You hit them, they come back with a bat. You have a bat, they come back with a knife and that's how these scum bags work.

I understand a man's need to beat his chest and stand his ground. But does anyone REALLY believe that giving them a slap is really the end of things?

So becoming meek and submissive is a better option? try to argue sense with them? whats the answer? when dealing with a bully or a scum bag sometimes the only answer is to become agressive, ive never had problems with either bullies or scumbags because i stand my ground and am as agressive to them as they are to me, really it just comes down to who is mentaly stronger.

willmunny1990 · 23-02-2012 01:16AM

billybudd wrote: »

So becoming meek and submissive is a better option? try to argue sense with them? whats the answer? when dealing with a bully or a scum bag sometimes the only answer is to become agressive, ive never had problems with either bullies or scumbags because i stand my ground and am as agressive to them as they are to me, really it just comes down to who is mentaly stronger.

And what if they have a knife and a history of arson attacks, and threaten your family?

What do you do then, do you still 'stand your ground'?

benway · 23-02-2012 01:16AM

later12 wrote:

If you read my post that you quotes

This is what I get for quoting three people in one go. My bad. Might make more sense laid out like this:

Scumbags are winning out because society and our justice system is too lenient on them.

Sure don't you know Gardaí, Judges and solicitors tend to live in relatively crime free areas.

I think this is a strong and a valid point. This is largely an issue of inequality, and pertains to the removal of which public representatives and some members of the legal professions feel from the lower working classes. Unfortunately this is a fact of modern life.

See where I'm coming from now? There are plenty of repeat offenders and ex prisoners around where I live ... but I think that you and charlemont were making very different points.

later12 wrote:

The validity of your argument rests upon its logical and evidential capital, not by telling everyone else to listen to you because of what you claim to know or have experienced.

It sure does, but I've been told enough times on the internet and elsewhere that I don't "understand reality" or words to that effect for making points on criminal justice anywhere to the left of Mussolini that I sometimes get my retaliation in first. Although it seemed relevant given the above.

I agree 100% on the function of prisons, but I also think that more emphasis needs to be placed on re-entry and reintegration into society.

The fundamental problem is that when ex-prisoners are sent (or dumped) back to the same place that they came from, and the conditions there are pretty much as they were, I wouldn't expect their behaviour to be much different.

Basically, my point is that we need changes on a societal level if we're to drastically reduce the crime rate, even the best prison and reintegration programme can only go so far. Harsher punishment, which seems to be the standard common sense response, certainly won't do it.

Granted, I don't think the system is working as badly as people like to make out, or at least I don't think it's failing in the way that they're making out ... and I think that the media shapes public perceptions to a massive degree. People seem to think that the only solution is to lock people up indefinitely. I think that making the communities they return to after prison more habitable would be more efficient in the long run.

Think I'm a bit burned out from getting overly involved with the various "I hate scumbags" threads over the past little while, I may have been responding to the cumulative contents of those threads as much as the specifics of the posts above. Don't mean to be antagonistic about it or nowt.

To be honest, the biggest thing is that I'm not sure what people mean by "scumbags" - it's not a term that I'd ever use.

MrStuffins · 23-02-2012 01:18AM

billybudd wrote: »

So becoming meek and submissive is a better option? try to argue sense with them? whats the answer? when dealing with a bully or a scum bag sometimes the only answer is to become agressive, ive never had problems with either bullies or scumbags because i stand my ground and am as agressive to them as they are to me, really it just comes down to who is mentaly stronger.

Lol. No it doesn't!

A lot of these scum bags are probably weak at heart, weak at character and weak mentally. If anything, THEY are the ones you wanna worry about. Because they are the ones putting up a front and are the ones who will not want to be embarrassed and will come back at you twice as hard!

I'm not saying being submissive is the answer. But what I AM saying is, thinking "Give them a few slaps and they'll back down" is NOT the answer! It works with school bullies but if you or anybody else actually thinks this works with modern day scum then you're sorely mistaken!

Captain Morgan Freeman · 23-02-2012 01:54AM

Wattle wrote: »

Just learn a good martial art and kick that bat/knife/gun out of their hands and watch them scream like a little girl as you kick their head in.

Someone's watched a few too many Jason Statham movies.

HavingCrack · 23-02-2012 02:26AM

billybudd wrote: »

So becoming meek and submissive is a better option? try to argue sense with them? whats the answer? when dealing with a bully or a scum bag sometimes the only answer is to become agressive, ive never had problems with either bullies or scumbags because i stand my ground and am as agressive to them as they are to me, really it just comes down to who is mentaly stronger.

I knew a lad from a very tough area who had this attitude. It actually worked twice. The third time someone pulled a knife and stabbed him.

How does your theory stand up to that?

Doc Ruby · 23-02-2012 02:51AM

later12 wrote: »

You seem to be confusing scumbags with hardened criminals.

Correct, hardened criminals don't bother picking fights with random strangers or hanging around outside bars looking for scraps. Kids who think that's what hardened crimmys do engage in those particular pastimes. And kids, really anyone under the age of 30-35, give them the bad eye and they'll run back home to mammy.

99.99% of these little men are not mafia types.

MrStuffins · 23-02-2012 03:12AM

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Correct, hardened criminals don't bother picking fights with random strangers or hanging around outside bars looking for scraps. Kids who think that's what hardened crimmys do engage in those particular pastimes. And kids, really anyone under the age of 30-35, give them the bad eye and they'll run back home to mammy.

99.99% of these little men are not mafia types.

I can assure you I am not confusing anybody with anybody. I know exactly what i'm talking about. A scumbag is a scumbag is a scumbag!

Jake187 · 23-02-2012 03:20AM

Whats the deal with the 'hardened criminals' and 'regular scumbag' thing going on here?

Are people living in their own little bubble?

That only a "hardened criminal" is the sort to stab, glass, stomp you? ... that joe scumbag wouldnt do that too?

I think people need a reality check here.

MrStuffins · 23-02-2012 03:26AM

Jake187 wrote: »

Whats the deal with the 'hardened criminals' and 'regular scumbag' thing going on here? Are people living in their own little bubble?
That only a "hardened criminal" is the sort to stab, glass, stomp you? ... that joe scumbag wouldnt do that too?

I think people need a reality check here.

This is part of the problem, there;s a serious issue with people understanding exactly who they're dealing with.

"Ah, sure yer man's never been to prison, he won't stick a knife in my neck if I give him a hiding!"

I think those saying things like this really don't ever deal wit these types of people! I tell ya, I know a lot of little dirt bags who, while not drug kingpins, would have no problem taking revenge on you if you gave them a few digs!

Bipolar Joe · 23-02-2012 03:41AM

What about us little guys? We're easy targets. I was with a friend not too long ago in a pizza place and ended up being cornered by a scumbag trying to get at my wallet. What am I gonna do? Square up against him, all five foot seven of me? Fucking laughable.

hattoncracker · 23-02-2012 03:43AM

Sindri wrote: »

Vrrrrrrroooooooooooooommmmmmmm, Neeeaahhhh, eeeeeeeeeehhhhh, *you*

Tra lalalala *scumbag*

Vrrroooommmmmmm, *you*

Tralalalla, lalalala *scumbag*

Neeeahhhhh, eeeeeeeeeehhhh, BOOOOOMMMM! *tumble tumble bumble*

Aaahhhhhh! MY LEGS! *scumbag*

*reverse* *repeat*

*get out chequebook and hire a good solicitor*

stovelid · 23-02-2012 03:48AM

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

What about us little guys? We're easy targets. I was with a friend not too long ago in a pizza place and ended up being cornered by a scumbag trying to get at my wallet. What am I gonna do? Square up against him, all five foot seven of me? Fucking laughable.

Stilts?

Bipolar Joe · 23-02-2012 03:50AM

They're far too unwieldly to whack someone with.

captainkeg · 23-02-2012 04:01AM

Lot of guff being spouted on here.
The internet tough guys need to read this book
http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Violence-Comparison-Martial-Training/dp/1594391181/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329965778&sr=8-1

Really nails how useless martial arts training is as a preparation for real world violence. Judging from this thread it seems to def give people a false sense of confidence of how well prepped they are for a real fight. Lol at the guy saying he'd karate kicked the knife away. In a lot of stabbings you've already been knifed before you even know the guy has one.
He also makes the point that the depictions of violence we see in films and MMA have given people a completely unrealistic view of vilence.

Pdfile · 23-02-2012 04:08AM

MrStuffins wrote: »

So, having read threads on scumbags (and one recently posted), the old chestnut came out to play:

"So i'm being intimidated by a known scumbag in my area........."

"Just walk up to them, give them a few smacks and they'll never bother you again. They're like school bullies!".

I'd love to know how people can actually believe this rubbish! Yes, that is what you are told when you are a kid and are dealing with another bully kid! This kid is probably insecure and his insecurity probably comes out in the form of bullying. Show him you're tough and he might not wanna bother you.

But 21st Century scumbags are NOT school bullies. They are knife carrying, gun-totting, drug snorting scum of the earth! The last thing they're gonna stand for is being embarrassed by a guy they've tried to intimidate!

Why do people think that by standing up to these guys with their fists that will stop it? You hit them, they come back with a bat. You have a bat, they come back with a knife and that's how these scum bags work.

I understand a man's need to beat his chest and stand his ground. But does anyone REALLY believe that giving them a slap is really the end of things?

i think you got Drug dealer and scumbag wrong...

Doc Ruby · 23-02-2012 04:13AM

captainkeg wrote: »

Lot of guff being spouted on here.
The internet tough guys need to read this book
http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Violence-Comparison-Martial-Training/dp/1594391181/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329965778&sr=8-1

A much better set of articles, and not even a referral link:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html

I know the author myself, not as scary as you might think. Fact of the matter is though, the vast majority of these greaseballs will fade away if you look at them crossways. Don't walk in fear, that's what has society in the state it is today.

MrStuffins · 23-02-2012 04:14AM

Pdfile wrote: »

i think you got Drug dealer and scumbag wrong...

Oh yeah? Why do you say that?

MrStuffins · 23-02-2012 04:16AM

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I know the author myself, not as scary as you might think. Fact of the matter is though, the vast majority of these greaseballs will fade away if you look at them crossways. Don't walk in fear, that's what has society in the state it is today.

I'm sorry dude but you can't honestly believe this! You really must be living in a different world to me!

You need to tell that to my mate who, after dealing with one of these scumbags with his fists, found himself with a knife in his stomach less that a week later! There was no hardened criminal, there was no drug dealer, the guy was just a dirtbag!

Doc Ruby · 23-02-2012 04:29AM

MrStuffins wrote: »

I'm sorry dude but you can't honestly believe this! You really must be living in a different world to me!

You need to tell that to my mate who, after dealing with one of these scumbags with his fists, found himself with a knife in his stomach less that a week later! There was no hardened criminal, there was no drug dealer, the guy was just a dirtbag!

Have a read through those articles I linked, its something I take very seriously.

Sorry to hear about your friend, and no offence intended to yourself, but really, you can't live life ducking from shadow to shadow. You seriously can't live life thinking you're zorro either, its one of those case by case situations.

My advice is - 1) run like hell 2) call the guards 3) wait for the guards. That's all anyone needs to know. If the guards aren't doing their jobs its time to escalate it to the ombudsman. Note that none of these options means you have to live in fear.

The myth of "give them a few digs and that'll learn 'em"

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