pub serv. TAX FREE PENSION LUMP SUMS TO COST THE GOVERNMENT €600,000,000.00 THIS YEAR

Riskymove · 20-02-2012 02:57PM

gigino wrote: »

It says in the Sunday business post today, page 2 article ( its their main page 2 article, at the top of the page ) how there are 7000 public servants retiring with an average tax free lump sum of €81,000 and an annnual pension of €27,000. http://www.businesspost.ie/

Elsewhere in the paper there are pages advising people what to do with this windfall. What would you do with a tax free €81,000 ?

well firstly, there is the lazy journalism bit to tidy up

PS leaving under the early retirement scheme only get 10% of their lump sum and get the rest when they would have normally (e.g. 65). So all the money is not paid in one go but over a number of years

Secondly all such pension lump sums (for both private and public sector) are tax-free up to €200,000 tax-free; it isn't a PS exclusive

Riskymove · 20-02-2012 03:00PM

ilovesleep wrote: »

I read somewhere that one of the biggest outgoings of public expeniture is the pension bill.

you read wrong

Unless you are talking about OAP maybe?

yermanoffthetv · 20-02-2012 03:03PM

Riskymove wrote: »

well firstly, there is the lazy journalism bit to tidy up

PS leaving under the early retirement scheme only get 10% of their lump sum and get the rest when they would have normally (e.g. 65). So all the money is not paid in one go but over a number of years

Secondly all such pension lump sums (for both private and public sector) are tax-free up to €200,000 tax-free; it isn't a PS exclusive

Id also like to ad that "average" lump sum does not mean the modal value as in most PS workers wont be waking away with anything near that figure.

Lazy journalist is lazy.

Riskymove · 20-02-2012 03:04PM

Ah Gigino, this thread is full of your usual fun about averages, it really brings me back!!

The figures seem to be based on using an average salary of €54,000 for the 7,700 retirees - no data on how this was worked out

they have then suggested that this means the average lumpsum, will be €81,000 and the average pension €27,000

this is very lazy maths tbh

the actual figures are the only data that can accurately work out the averages

Riskymove · 20-02-2012 03:05PM

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

Id also like to ad that "average" lump sum does not mean the modal value as in most PS workers wont be waking away with anything near that figure.

oh never fear, the OP realises that fully, he just doesn't worry about such technicalities

gigino · 20-02-2012 03:28PM

Riskymove wrote: »

The figures seem to be based on using an average salary of €54,000 for the 7,700 retirees - no data on how this was worked out

they have then suggested that this means the average lumpsum, will be €81,000 and the average pension €27,000

this is very lazy maths tbh

the actual figures are the only data that can accurately work out the averages

If you take the trouble to read the Sunday Business Post article in depth, you will see the figures above were all provided for the SBP by the public service themselves.

Riskymove · 20-02-2012 03:44PM

gigino wrote: »

If you take the trouble to read the Sunday Business Post article in depth, you will see the figures above were all provided for the SBP by the public service themselves.

you have to subscribe to read the article

perhaps you might post the full article here?

20-02-2012 03:51PM

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

Id also like to ad that "average" lump sum does not mean the modal value as in most PS workers wont be waking away with anything near that figure.

Lazy journalist is lazy.

What is the figure that most of them will walk away with then?

Riskymove · 20-02-2012 03:58PM

gigino wrote: »

If you take the trouble to read the Sunday Business Post article in depth, you will see the figures above were all provided for the SBP by the public service themselves.

here is the quote

The department said that the average public sector pension was €27,000 a year, meaning the average lump sum payment on retirement is €81,000.

'meaning' is the key

The €27,000 is the figure provided by the PS

The Business Post has assumed the €81,000 based on this; imo this is lazy maths and the actual figure is likely to be less than that

What is the figure that most of them will walk away with then?

well exactly, that's whats unknown

many will get less than the €27,000/€81,000 and there are those that will get more, indeed some will get much more

however, the generalisations and use of averages is applied unfairly to many lower paid PS

20-02-2012 06:04PM

Riskymove wrote: »

here is the quote

'meaning' is the key

The €27,000 is the figure provided by the PS

The Business Post has assumed the €81,000 based on this; imo this is lazy maths and the actual figure is likely to be less than that

well exactly, that's whats unknown

many will get less than the €27,000/€81,000 and there are those that will get more, indeed some will get much more

however, the generalisations and use of averages is applied unfairly to many lower paid PS

There are around 7000 people retiring from the Public Service.

How many of the 7000 do you suppose are made up of highly paid/skilled people who are leaving?

I mean the consultants, assistant commissioners, etc.
Maybe a few hundred? Max 500, maybe?

Are you saying that the jumbo lumpsums and pensions of the few highly paid and specialised people leaving is enough to bring up the average of the other 6000 up to €27,000/€81,000 ?

tayto lover · 20-02-2012 06:08PM

gigino wrote: »

81k tax free tip.;)

Bet your sorry you didn't make it now. Where did you finally end up ?

gigino · 20-02-2012 06:25PM

Riskymove wrote: »

The €27,000 is the figure provided by the PS

The Business Post has assumed the €81,000 based on this; imo this is lazy maths and the actual figure is likely to be less than that

You are wrong again there. If you take the trouble to either look up the link or else buy the newspaper yesterday - as I did - you will read that it was a spokesperson in the public service who said that the average lump sum was €81,000

Freddie59 · 20-02-2012 07:00PM

benway wrote: »

I'd start off by pointing out that the January payment to unsecured Anglo bond holders was over twice the entire amount of the lump sums paid to 7000 Irish workers. Just in case anyone might need a bit of perspective.

And two wrongs don't make a right. Just in case anyone needs to focus their mind.:rolleyes:

Freddie59 · 20-02-2012 07:06PM

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I think they deserve their tax free windfall for working for the public good for over 50 years and paying over 80% of their wages in the 1970's.

The Waterford Crystal Workers did the same. In August 2008 the company asked for a €25m LOAN to help keep the company afloat. They were told to eff off by the same Government that squandered billions on the banks.

So pardon me if I don't agree with your outlook on these 'wonderful' people. 'The public good' my hole. Their own pocket.

tigger123 · 20-02-2012 07:12PM

The usual suspects are all over this thread, like broken records that just go round and round and round and round ...

coach23 · 20-02-2012 07:28PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

The Waterford Crystal Workers did the same. In August 2008 the company asked for a €25m LOAN to help keep the company afloat. They were told to eff off by the same Government that squandered billions on the banks.

So pardon me if I don't agree with your outlook on these 'wonderful' people. 'The public good' my hole. Their own pocket.

You're assuming that the 7000 retiring members of the public service are the same public servants that made the decision to deny that loan, your wrong.

In reality the majority are normal people doing a job you may have used over their long working life at some stage, at best they might have made middle management but not Policy makers. The few that are big wigs are pushing up the averages here.
Most of the lump sums will go to clearing mortgages or other loans before their incomes are halved.

benway · 20-02-2012 07:37PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

And two wrongs don't make a right. Just in case anyone needs to focus their mind.:rolleyes:

Not saying they do.

It's just that I had a suspicion for some reason that maybe some posters might latch on to this and tie it in to their attempts to blame the whole economic catastrophe on "public sector inefficiency", "red tape", or whatever the neoliberal buzzword of the week happens to be.

I mean, it's not like the O'Reilly press and the True Believers (tm) of The Markets (tm) and Individual Freedom (tm) would try to thrash some kind of ideological point out of this ... would they? :rolleyes:

Chuck Stone · 20-02-2012 08:01PM

The tax payer's responsibility for PS pensions should be done away with altogether.

Any pension administered on behalf of the tax paying public should be done in the case of need i.e. the ~€200 (?) a week to prevent poverty and destitution.

People have all their working lives to get their shit together so there's no excuse.

Freddie59 · 20-02-2012 08:05PM

coach23 wrote: »

You're assuming that the 7000 retiring members of the public service are the same public servants that made the decision to deny that loan, your wrong.

In reality the majority are normal people doing a job you may have used over their long working life at some stage, at best they might have made middle management but not Policy makers. The few that are big wigs are pushing up the averages here.
Most of the lump sums will go to clearing mortgages or other loans before their incomes are halved.

No. What I am saying is that one company was refused State aid; and that same aid (multiplied by thousands) given to defunct businesses which have bankrupted Ireland. Which brings me to my next point. The Public Sector appears it is immune to this catastrophe. In a normal company there would have been statutory redundancies, huge hob reductions, and wage cuts to beat the band.

However, the idiot Government and the blind civl servants that lead them believe it can go on forever. It cannot. There is talk of the Public/Private sector divide. It is this type of discriminatory favouritism that caused it.

Freddie59 · 20-02-2012 08:06PM

tigger123 wrote: »

The usual suspects are all over this thread, like broken records that just go round and round and round and round ...

In a lot of those cases the truth is being spoken. Some don't want to hear it.

Seanchai · 20-02-2012 08:08PM

Teachers are bastards. They should be all dragged over to Kilmainham Jail and shot some summer morning.

I'm sure that Gigino, being British, would be more than willing to oblige.

AND WHAT'S THE STORY WITH THE CAPS, MISTER? STRUGGLING TO EXPRESS YOURSELF THERE, MISTER?

coach23 · 20-02-2012 08:16PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

No. What I am saying is that one company was refused State aid; and that same aid (multiplied by thousands) given to defunct businesses which have bankrupted Ireland. Which brings me to my next point. The Public Sector appears it is immune to this catastrophe. In a normal company there would have been statutory redundancies, huge hob reductions, and wage cuts to beat the band.

However, the idiot Government and the blind civl servants that lead them believe it can go on forever. It cannot. There is talk of the Public/Private sector divide. It is this type of discriminatory favouritism that caused it.

It has nothing to do with 7000 public sector workers retiring.

Public sector workers have had cuts already, calling it a levy doesn't make it any different

Chuck Stone · 20-02-2012 08:17PM

Seanchai wrote: »

I'm sure that Gigino, being British, would be more than willing to oblige.

I disagree with gigino on everything when it come to the historical role of the British in Ireland but I can park it when it comes to an issue such as PS pensions which are costing us a fortune apparently.

Seanchai · 20-02-2012 08:23PM

Freddie59 wrote: »

The Waterford Crystal Workers did the same. In August 2008 the company asked for a €25m LOAN to help keep the company afloat. They were told to eff off by the same Government that squandered billions on the banks.

So pardon me if I don't agree with your outlook on these 'wonderful' people. 'The public good' my hole. Their own pocket.

Hold on a minute. If you follow Independent Newspapers at this time closely you'll find it suddenly went into deep investigations into Enterprise Ireland, and other sections of the public service, following this refusal by Enterprise Ireland and these sections to bail out O'Reilly's investment in Waterford Crystal.

What the plebs rarely notice is how other sections of O'Reilly's interests, to be precise Independent Newspapers, then gang up on the very same state elements which protect our interests.

This state should never be used to bail out Anthony O'Reilly and his failures, particularly when he threatens to use Independent Newspapers to undermine the careers of civil and public servants who refuse the demands of his companies like Waterford Wedgwood.

Irish people are still depressingly ignorant of the unrivalled power Anthony O'Reilly exerts in Irish political life by virtue of threatening to unleash the dogs of his newspapers on any organisation, individual or politician who stands in the way of his business interests.

The Irish state was 100% correct to refuse to give any more money over to O'Reilly's Waterford Wedgwood.

Seanchai · 20-02-2012 08:39PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I disagree with gigino on everything when it come to the historical role of the British in Ireland but I can park it when it comes to an issue such as PS pensions which are costing us a fortune apparently.

How about starting with Bertie Ahern and his €152,000 pension? (let's forget about the house he got as a gift or all that money he "won on the races" or those "cheques he signed without looking" for a moment) Or the other 29 former ministers who are entitled to pensions of over €100,000 per year? People who've been getting pensions since they stopped serving at ministers, which could have been at 38 years of age.

Better still, how about examining the sort of pensions each and every member of the current government will receive? At least the rest of the public service when they retire, usually in their 60s, cannot go on such massive money as a "pension" each year from their 30s or 40s.

The pensions of former government ministers, and the ages they can receive them from, is the most sickening thing about the public service pension. To imply this is the sort of pension which teachers and gardaí get, as the OP is doing, is sensationalist tabloid nonsense.

PS: Give the OP time and he'll explain it all by the Irish people being inferior to Brits like himself. Plus ca change....

steddyeddy · 20-02-2012 08:46PM

When are people going to learn that we cant afford the current rate of spending and we all need to pay more tax, no area is exempt except this.

kirving · 20-02-2012 08:47PM

I love how the thread title has the cents in in it, to make it appear like a larger number. Also, rounding to the cent, or euro, or thousand even is pointless when your talking millions.

Seanchai · 20-02-2012 08:55PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

When are people going to learn that we cant afford the current rate of spending and we all need to pay more tax, no area is exempt except this.

The Irish Times reported a few weeks ago that of the 620 millionaires in the Irish state, almost half of them pay under 30% tax.

Clearly, many rich people in this great republic where we're all supposed to be cherished as equals have no intention of paying more tax, and more importantly neither have the overpaid politicians of this state - I write it out in a verse, Kenny, Gilmore, Noonan, Varadkar... - any intention of forcing them to pay their fair share. A party political donation will keep that legislation off the books!

It is PAYE workers, including public sector PAYE employees, who are taking the burden much more than any other section.

steddyeddy · 20-02-2012 08:55PM

Seanchai wrote: »

steddyeddy wrote: »

When are people going to learn that we cant afford the current rate of spending and we all need to pay more tax, no area is exempt except this.

The Irish Times reported a few weeks ago that of the 620 millionaires in the Irish state, almost half of them pay under 30% tax.

Clearly, many rich people in this great republic where we're all supposed to be cherished as equals have no intention of paying more tax, and more importantly neither have the overpaid politicians of this state - I write it out in verse, Kenny, Gilmore, Noonan, Varadkar... - have any intention of forcing them to.

It is PAYE workers, including public sector PAYE employees, who are taking the burden much more than any other section.

Its a joke and a half. The people in this country need to stop accepting the tripe that the same people again and again need to take the cuts.

The_Thing · 20-02-2012 09:09PM

I'm thinking of taking the first of my "Duvet" days shortly, gigino. Hope that's OK with you?

pub serv. TAX FREE PENSION LUMP SUMS TO COST THE GOVERNMENT €600,000,000.00 THIS YEAR

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