Palestinian hunger striker - 61 days, detained without charge, near death

brimal · 17-02-2012 02:37PM

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Too many Jews in high places in the US for anything to be done.

What is the difference between Israel and other of the US tagged "Rogue States". Israel have illegal nuclear weapons, bomb towns killing innocent people and invade countries.

But because Jews have a major stakehold in US affairs, they "are acting against terrorists" and are a legit country. (Despite there being no such thing as Israel until World War II ended.)

It just shows how bitter some people are that Israel exists.

For such a young country Israel has done extremely well. In her short 60 years of existence, it has contributed more to modern civilisation than all of her neighbours combined.

brimal · 17-02-2012 02:40PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

The Isaraeli people have consistently endorsed their state's war on the Palestinian people. What did they expect?

What a load of complete nonsense.

Have you ever been to Israel? Have you ever spoken to Israeli people? Majority of everyday Israelis don't want this.

I wouldn't expect anything less from a person who thanks anti-semetic posts though.

Zebra3 · 17-02-2012 02:41PM

token101 wrote: »

So it's ok for them to blow up innocents? What about the few that don't agree? Are they legitimate targets aswell? If that's the case then it's full blown war and anything goes. I don't remember the Palestinians putting Gilad Shilat on trial.

In very cases do Palestinians target innocent people.

As there are very few. Most Israelis are soldiers and all the Israelis living in the West Bank are part of the ever so subtle occupying armed militias. Some might even say terrorists.

Israel steals water every day from the Occupied West Bank and the Occupied Golan Heights. The vast majority of Israelis are happy enough with this criminality that their state is engaging in.

Zebra3 · 17-02-2012 02:45PM

brimal wrote: »

What a load of complete nonsense.

Have you ever been to Israel? Have you ever spoken to Israeli people? Majority of everyday Israelis don't want this.

I wouldn't expect anything less from a person who thanks anti-semetic posts though.

Yes I have been to Israel. I've also been to Hebron. Want to talk about what happens there every day?

The election results in Israel speak for themselves. The people endorse parties that continue their sixty plus years war on the Palestinian people.

And I don't thank racist posts. Pointing out the power held by certain groups or people in the US is not racist after all am I anti-Irish for pointing out the power that some Irish people hold in the US? :rolleyes:

If you wanna talk about racism, let us discuss the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

wes · 17-02-2012 02:47PM

brimal wrote: »

Have you ever been to Israel? Have you ever spoken to Israeli people? Majority of everyday Israelis don't want this.

Every single Israeli government since 1967 has enaged in the greater Israel project, so I find it hard to believe that there isn't a huge support for settlements in Israel. If a majority are against them as you say, and seeing as Israel says there a democracy, then why are there so many settlements that are increasing on a daily basis?

Now, there are certainly Israeli's who are against the whole thing, and some who even go on protests alongside Palestinians in the West Bank, but from what I have read, they are increasingly on the recieving end of a great deal of hatred from other Israeli's.

token101 · 17-02-2012 02:52PM

seamus wrote: »

Actually it would be more accurately described as thus:

You see a large group of travellers living on a piece of land that they've lived on for generations. You decide for no good reason that the land belongs to you and build a house there and force the travellers to vacate a part of the land to suit you.
As time goes on, you're not satisfied with the land you have and you continually relocate the travellers to other parts of the plot at gunpoint, killing any that get in your way.
The travellers get frustrated, and in frustration they kick your car, denting it. So in retalitation you burn half of their encampment and kill hundreds of them.
This kind of back-and-forth (small acts by them, massive overreaction by you) goes on for a little while until you decide to start capturing any travellers found outside "their" part of the land, locking them in your basement without telling them why you're doing it.

Who's in the wrong here?

Israel might be in the wrong building settlements, but the Palestinians, or more accurately groups acting in their name, have done enough **** to them in their time to be classed as more than disgruntled people kicking a car.

token101 · 17-02-2012 02:58PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

In very cases do Palestinians target innocent people.

As there are very few. Most Israelis are soldiers and all the Israelis living in the West Bank are part of the ever so subtle occupying armed militias. Some might even say terrorists.

Israel steals water every day from the Occupied West Bank and the Occupied Golan Heights. The vast majority of Israelis are happy enough with this criminality that their state is engaging in.

Munich Olympics? Were the athletes engaging in war there?

Israel has conscription, they don't get a choice in the matter. The bit in black is just nonsense. Have you got anything concrete to back this up other than anecdotal evidence from visits? We elect a government here. Are you happy they are giving billions to a dead bank?

seamus · 17-02-2012 02:59PM

token101 wrote: »

Israel might be in the wrong building settlements, but the Palestinians, or more accurately groups acting in their name, have done enough **** to them in their time to be classed as more than disgruntled people kicking a car.

It's the scale that I'm referring to.

Terrorist attacks and deaths in Israel have massively tapered off in the last ten years. Maybe it's down to tighter security, maybe it's not. But the fact is that Israel is at a very reduced risk of terrorism at present.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities_1948.E2.80.93present

My scale is off, I'll grant that. But the fact is that Israel has caused far more suffering and death to Palestine than the opposite way around. If either party is being afforded a moral high ground here, clearly Palestinians are the ones with the greater right to be pissed off.

Israel can claim that they're defending themselves from terrorism, but Palestinians have a greater claim that they're defending themselves from genocide.

brimal · 17-02-2012 03:07PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

The election results in Israel speak for themselves.

Yes, Kadima got the most votes but aren't in power.

Zebra3 wrote: »

And I don't thank racist posts.

Yes, you thank anti-semetic posts. Not just today's endorsement either.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Pointing out the power held by certain groups or people in the US is not racist after all am I anti-Irish for pointing out the power that some Irish people hold in the US? :rolleyes:

Ok, can you please tell me what 'group' should be in power? There will always be people in positions of power. What's the problem with them being Jewish, Irish, etc.? Would you be happier if the people in power were white?

token101 · 17-02-2012 03:11PM

seamus wrote: »

It's the scale that I'm referring to.

Terrorist attacks and deaths in Israel have massively tapered off in the last ten years. Maybe it's down to tighter security, maybe it's not. But the fact is that Israel is at a very reduced risk of terrorism at present.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities_1948.E2.80.93present

My scale is off, I'll grant that. But the fact is that Israel has caused far more suffering and death to Palestine than the opposite way around. If either party is being afforded a moral high ground here, clearly Palestinians are the ones with the greater right to be pissed off.

I'd say almost definitely. It's an identical situation to the North in a lot of ways. There is a war over territory. Neither side is in the 'right'. Almost all of the people in Israel were born there and should have the right to reasonable defence. Yes, Israel should have stopped building settlements like they were told to by the UN, but Palestinians don't hold any moral high ground. Hamas bring artillery in consistently and fire it into Gaza aswell. It's not just Israel making **** of the place. And it's innocents on both sides getting caught in the middle that end up being killed.

Look at it from the point of view of Israel for a second: they are surrounded by enemies, consistently preaching racial hatred against them. It'd be difficult for them to be peaceful.

droidus · 17-02-2012 03:15PM

token101 wrote: »

Yes, Israel should have stopped building settlements like they were told to by the UN, but Palestinians don't hold any moral high ground. Hamas bring artillery in consistently and fire it into Gaza aswell.

Wow, Hamas are so evil that they're now firing 'artillery' at themselves??? Does their commitment to terror know no bounds? :mad: :mad::pac:

wes · 17-02-2012 03:17PM

token101 wrote: »

Look at it from the point of view of Israel for a second: they are surrounded by enemies, consistently preaching racial hatred against them. It'd be difficult for them to be peaceful.

Nonsense, there are peace deals with both Jordan and Egypt.

Also an offer for peace from the entire Arab league:
Text: Arab peace plan of 2002

Israel chose settlements over peace time and time again.

brimal · 17-02-2012 03:20PM

wes wrote: »

Nonsense, there are peace deals with both Jordan and Egypt.

Also an offer for peace from the entire Arab league:
Text: Arab peace plan of 2002

Every single one of Israel's Arab neighbours would prefer if Israel wasn't there. This is something Israel have to live with and they have every right to be sceptical of their neighbours at times.

wes · 17-02-2012 03:28PM

brimal wrote: »

Every single one of Israel's Arab neighbours would prefer if Israel wasn't there.

The Israeli's would prefer to be rid of the Palestinians and are currently doing there best to achieve this via the whole greater Israeli project, but pushing the Palestinians into smaller and smaller Bantustans. Seems to me that Israel hatred of Palestinians and Arabs is ignored, but the fact remains Israel was offered a peace deal, which btw is still on the table, and that there still ignoring, all the while there still stealing more and more land.

brimal wrote: »

This is something Israel have to live with and they have every right to be sceptical of their neighbours at times.

Yeah, so they offered a full and comprehsive peace deal with Israel, meanwhile Israel keeps stealing land thats not theres, but its the Arabs that are in the wrong. Its amazing even after offering a peace deal with everyone, some how its the Arabs who are in the wrong.

Seriously you will have to come with far better excuse than that. Considering the existing peace deals.

dlofnep · 17-02-2012 03:33PM

People need to stop seeing criticism of Israel as anti-semitism. It does Israel no good, or it's supporters to brush it's human rights abuses away - screaming anti-semite everytime someone addresses their record.

I'm not naive, nor am I ignorant to the past. I understand the Jewish people have a heightened sense of security as a result of WW2. I believe they are justified in this, and recognise that it could at least explain some of the behaviour of Israel.

But Israel does not represent all Jewish people. It only represents the Israeli people. And if they want to protect the future of the Israeli people and their children, they need to be much more intelligent about their actions. They simply cannot continue to defy international calls to end illegal settlements, and they cannot continue to treat Palestinians as second class people interning them without trial.

There will never be peace until Israel learns to compromise. Government after Government of Israel has simply been too stubborn, much to the detriment of both the Israeli people and the Palestinians. If Israel ends settlements, agrees to move back it's borders to the original agreed lines - I feel that there could be a really solid basis for a real peace agreement.

The Palestinians deserve a state as much as any other people, and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. In return, the Palestinians must recognise the state of Israel based on the 67 lines and once the deal is done with Israel's above compromises - the war is over, and any future Government will need to control any minority hard-liners.

Nodin · 17-02-2012 04:20PM

token101 wrote: »

I'd say almost definitely. It's an identical situation to the North in a lot of ways. There is a war over territory. Neither side is in the 'right'. Almost all of the people in Israel were born there and should have the right to reasonable defence. Yes, Israel should have stopped building settlements like they were told to by the UN, but Palestinians don't hold any moral high ground. Hamas bring artillery in consistently and fire it into Gaza aswell. It's not just Israel making **** of the place. And it's innocents on both sides getting caught in the middle that end up being killed.

Look at it from the point of view of Israel for a second: they are surrounded by enemies, consistently preaching racial hatred against them. It'd be difficult for them to be peaceful.

It's not a "neither side is right" affair, in that the land is not Israels, nor do they have any right to colonise it.

Hamas don't have artillery, nor would they be firing it into Gaza. Israel do, and occassionally do.

Having been denied peaceful methods of resititution for the colonisation of their land, and having had it slowly stolen over the last 40 years, you'd find most would say the Palestinians do indeed have the "moral high ground".

Zebra3 · 17-02-2012 04:28PM

token101 wrote: »

Munich Olympics? Were the athletes engaging in war there?

Not during the Olympics they weren't.

What about the innocent Palestinians murdered by Israel. Do they deserve to die?

What about the innocent Palestinians dispossed of their land by Israel who live in refugee camps. Do they deserve that?

What about the innocent Palestinians tortured by Israel. Do they deserve that?

What about the Palestinian women who die because the occupying Israeli forces refuse to allow their ambulances throguh checkpoints while they are in labour?

joseph brand · 17-02-2012 04:43PM

Israel's Tanks Country of Origin

Merkava Mk.1 250 Israel
Merkava Mk.2 580 Israel
Merkava Mk.3 750 Israel
Merkava Mk.4 320 Israel Additional 300 to be delivered
Magach 5 561 United States/ Israel Upgraded M60 tank
Magach 6 711 United States/ Israel Upgraded M60 tank
Magach 7 111 United States/ Israel Upgraded M60 tank

Palestinian Tanks.
Don't exist.

I haven't even mentioned Israeli air support or Nukes.

Palestinians do have rockets which we have seen can break branches and smash windows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_main_battle_tanks_by_country

Stiffler2 · 17-02-2012 04:48PM

Those 2 nations have been at it since time began. Once Iran goes nuclear though I believe this problem will get resolved shortly.

Ellian · 17-02-2012 04:55PM

I've always thought this quote by Hitchens was a good place to start the debate.

“Suppose that a man leaps out of a burning building—as my dear friend and colleague Jeff Goldberg sat and said to my face over a table at La Tomate in Washington not two years ago—and lands on a bystander in the street below. Now, make the burning building be Europe, and the luckless man underneath be the Palestinian Arabs. Is this a historical injustice? Has the man below been made a victim, with infinite cause of complaint and indefinite justification for violent retaliation? My own reply would be a provisional 'no,' but only on these conditions. The man leaping from the burning building must still make such restitution as he can to the man who broke his fall, and must not pretend that he never even landed on him. And he must base his case on the singularity and uniqueness of the original leap. It can't, in other words, be 'leap, leap, leap' for four generations and more. The people underneath cannot be expected to tolerate leaping on this scale and of this duration, if you catch my drift. In Palestine, tread softly, for you tread on their dreams. And do not tell the Palestinians that they were never fallen upon and bruised in the first place. Do not shame yourself with the cheap lie that they were told by their leaders to run away. Also, stop saying that nobody knew how to cultivate oranges in Jaffa until the Jews showed them how. 'Making the desert bloom'—one of Yvonne's stock phrases—makes desert dwellers out of people who were the agricultural superiors of the Crusaders.”

token101 · 17-02-2012 05:14PM

Nodin wrote: »

It's not a "neither side is right" affair, in that the land is not Israels, nor do they have any right to colonise it.

Hamas don't have artillery, nor would they be firing it into Gaza. Israel do, and occassionally do.

Having been denied peaceful methods of resititution for the colonisation of their land, and having had it slowly stolen over the last 40 years, you'd find most would say the Palestinians do indeed have the "moral high ground".

What I actually meant was firing from Gaza into Israel, and Hamas and it's militants have plenty of weaponry. They fire into Israel regularly. What are Israel supposed to do? Not fire back? They fired 1600 rockets in 2007, it's gone down dramatically since but how much of that is due to the increased security.

It is Israeli land. Most, if not almost all at this stage, were born there on that soil. Where do you suggest should they go?

The Palestinians and allies have been pursuing war for the past 60 years so I don't see how you would think that they have 'been denied a peaceful resolution'. It's a war. Bad things happen. I'm not saying Israel is right in continuing to build settlements and blockade international aid, but the Palestinians certainly hold no moral high ground. They've committed enough atrocities to have lost that long, long ago, much like the IRA did in the North. There's two sides to every story, but sure don't let that get in way of a 'cause'.

token101 · 17-02-2012 05:16PM

joseph brand wrote: »

Israel's Tanks Country of Origin

Merkava Mk.1 250 Israel
Merkava Mk.2 580 Israel
Merkava Mk.3 750 Israel
Merkava Mk.4 320 Israel Additional 300 to be delivered
Magach 5 561 United States/ Israel Upgraded M60 tank
Magach 6 711 United States/ Israel Upgraded M60 tank
Magach 7 111 United States/ Israel Upgraded M60 tank

Palestinian Tanks.
Don't exist.

I haven't even mentioned Israeli air support or Nukes.

Palestinians do have rockets which we have seen can break branches and smash windows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_main_battle_tanks_by_country

And kill people. And if the security wasn't so tight, who is to say they wouldn't have an awful lot more?

Dudess · 17-02-2012 05:17PM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

might have been a good idea to start doing this a long time ago instead of blowing up busses and randomly firing missiles into civilian areas

I could have sworn I'd seen you vehemently criticising Israeli state policy on Palestine.

Nodin · 17-02-2012 05:21PM

token101 wrote: »

What I actually meant was firing from Gaza into Israel, and Hamas and it's militants have plenty of weaponry. They fire into Israel regularly. What are Israel supposed to do? Not fire back? They fired 1600 rockets in 2007, it's gone down dramatically since but how much of that is due to the increased security.

It is Israeli land. Most, if not almost all at this stage, were born there on that soil. Where do you suggest should they go?.

You seem to be confused. The West Bank, Gaza, Arab East Jerusalem etc are not part of Israels internationally recognised territory. This is where they build the settlements, offer tax breaks to tempt colonists to move in etc. This is Palestinian land outside Israels legal borders.
http://www.btselem.org/settlements/international_law

token101 wrote: »

The Palestinians and allies have been pursuing war for the past 60 years so I don't see how you would think that they have 'been denied a peaceful resolution'..

...because the US has blocked sanctions at the UNSC by use of its veto. Therefore there is no international consequences for Israel for its colonial enterprise.

RichieC · 17-02-2012 05:23PM

Stiffler2 wrote: »

Those 2 nations have been at it since time began. Once Iran goes nuclear though I believe this problem will get resolved shortly.

What two nations? Do you mean Israel? that was founded in 1948.

token101 · 17-02-2012 05:28PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Not during the Olympics they weren't.

What about the innocent Palestinians murdered by Israel. Do they deserve to die?

What about the innocent Palestinians dispossed of their land by Israel who live in refugee camps. Do they deserve that?

What about the innocent Palestinians tortured by Israel. Do they deserve that?

What about the Palestinian women who die because the occupying Israeli forces refuse to allow their ambulances throguh checkpoints while they are in labour?

Not during the Olympics? So what because they might have previously been conscripts that makes them legitimate targets?

No is the answer to all your stupidly loaded questions. But ever think that maybe, there's an Israeli side to that story? Maybe they're not just born bloodthirsty conquerers and just feel that this security is necessary? I'm not saying it's right, but there's a reason for everything. And I don't believe that all Israelis are savage war mongerers like certain media outlets would have you believe.

RichieC · 17-02-2012 05:32PM

token101 wrote: »

Not during the Olympics? So what because they might have previously been conscripts that makes them legitimate targets?

No is the answer to all your stupidly loaded questions. But ever think that maybe, there's an Israeli side to that story? Maybe they're not just born bloodthirsty conquerers and just feel that this security is necessary? I'm not saying it's right, but there's a reason for everything. And I don't believe that all Israelis are savage war mongerers like certain media outlets would have you believe.

Read up on the goals of Zionists and get back to us about conquerors. Every person I know online who criticise Israel seem to be able to distinguish between Jews and Zionists. It boggles my mind that the pro Israel at any cost contingent do not.

Zebra3 · 17-02-2012 05:36PM

Stiffler2 wrote: »

Those 2 nations have been at it since time began. Once Iran goes nuclear though I believe this problem will get resolved shortly.

No they haven't. The current problems only began when zionists started arriving from europe with their plan to ethnicly cleanse Palestine of its native population and to colonialise the land.

token101 wrote: »

Not during the Olympics? So what because they might have previously been conscripts that makes them legitimate targets?

No is the answer to all your stupidly loaded questions. But ever think that maybe, there's an Israeli side to that story? Maybe they're not just born bloodthirsty conquerers and just feel that this security is necessary? I'm not saying it's right, but there's a reason for everything. And I don't believe that all Israelis are savage war mongerers like certain media outlets would have you believe.

Do you believe we needed to hear the German side of the story about WWII and everything that happened during it?

Israel is stealing land. For some reason it was unaccpetable for Serbs to do so, but the international community generally gives a nod and a wink to Israel to carry on with its crimes.

Warper · 17-02-2012 05:57PM

What the Israelis are doing to the Palestinian people is akin to what the Nazis did to the Jewish people. How ironic that the victims of Holocaust are now performing their own Holocaust. Only this time there are no Allies to save the persecuted due to political, financial reasons mainly attributed to the US who does nothing out of fear of losing votes. Look away World and pretend that everything is fine. The story of the Palestinian people is one of the saddest parts of our history.

RichieC · 17-02-2012 05:59PM

Warper wrote: »

What the Israelis are doing to the Palestinian people is akin to what the Nazis did to the Jewish people. How ironic that the victims of Holocaust are now performing their own Holocaust. Only this time there are no Allies to save the persecuted due to political, financial reasons mainly attributed to the US who does nothing out of fear of losing votes. Look away World and pretend that everything is fine. The story of the Palestinian people will be one of the saddest parts of our history.

That's taking it a shade far. Its more akin to South Africa under Apartheid.

Palestinian hunger striker - 61 days, detained without charge, near death

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