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Why is sexism such a difficult topic?
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Any luck?
Really? I've just read through a 36 page thread, I don't want to go back to the start of it again...Originally Posted by later12
Who here has said that the explicit goal of feminism is the promotion of gender equality without reference to sex?
I'll dig something out I guess.
No, and I think this is the basis of the misunderstanding.The difference to your animal example is that women's rights are defined in binary opposition to men's rights.
In promoting an improvement of women's condition in social, labour political and personal life, feminists are sometimes using deficiencies in women's respective positions with respect to men as a reference point to what is possible, and sometimes they are not using men as a reference point at all.
To continue with my equine example. A centre involved in the rehabilitation of racehorses might wish to promote the welfare of ex-racehorses to a level that is enjoyed by lovingly cared-for riding club ponies, but there is no inherent assumption that riding club ponies do not face welfare problems of their own in certain instances.
Not at all. And there is no reason why it should. Donkey enthusiasts such as those who volunteer for the donkey sanctuary tend to fully appreciate the fact that we all have our own affinities, usually based on one's own history and experience.hardbackwriter wrote: »Do you find that your weighted concern for horses brings you into confrontation with those from the donkey or even zebra welfare societies ?
Why does this matter? Because I feel that those who care for human welfare most appreciate the same thing. We must understand that it is impractical to expect that no human being will find the cause of particular individuals (the homeless/ travellers/ beaten men/ beaten women/ rape victims/ the abused/ single fathers/ single mothers/ men/ women) to be particularly endearing.
Millicent has already spelled out the basis of her feminism which I think some of us who call ourselves feminists find may dwarf the basis for our own feminism.
I admit I feel myself a bit of a sham calling myself a feminist compared to some of the women on this thread, but from my own experience as a man growing up in a predominantly female household, I saw the ways which my older sisters and my mother had to struggle in a way that would have seemed grotesque to us as boys. We all bring our own individual experiences to the table; these experiences define our identity. These experiences define our interests, our affinities and our worldview. They define what we can relate to.
I cannot much relate to the issue of fathers' rights, for example, but in my own small way I can relate to women who feel themselves inhibited by perceptions of their gender. That's a very personal thing. We all have our personal causes. It is unrealistic and incoherent to lump all of us, and our respective specialist interests, in together.
Male. Usually castrated. They tend to be the most forgotten, least apparently useful, most underdog, and most intriguing.also, do you mainly focus on female or male race horses
Of course I take your posts at face value but their are some who might view your replys as slightly Tongue in cheek0 -
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Any luck?
EH, here's one post to be getting on with
No, and I think this is the basis of the misunderstanding.feathers wrote:The difference to your animal example is that women's rights are defined in binary opposition to men's rights.
In promoting an improvement of women's condition in social, labour political and personal life, feminists are sometimes using deficiencies in women's respective positions with respect to men as a reference point to what is possible, and sometimes they are not using men as a reference point at all.
99% of the time they have to be, as they are the same rights. If it's an issue that women aren't receiving equal pay, both women & men have the right to the same pay & this right is getting violated in the case of the woman.
Unless you're talking about issues which are only applicable to women, such as child-birth, there are very few issues that have no impact whatsoever on men. Or do you have other examples of times women aren't using men as a reference point?0 -
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Are you taking the piss? Really there is no need to be aggressiveRoy Yummy Grenade wrote: »Have u ever been refused something because of your gender felt sidelined or ridiculed or made to feel unsafe because of it that to me is sexism
Refused something because of being male? How about access to your child dealt with to death on this thread but of course its wrong. Or access to competitive insurance prices.again as a recent poster stated has been rectified
Ridiculed because of being male? How about attitudes like "you must be gay" because you're not into the same 'manly' thing as some others? Hmm i think thats more a male on male crimeAnd let's not forget flippant comments about penis size, like the one you made in the last thread about sexism! No i adhered to it and its was only and may i add stupidly rising to a previous posters vile comment (he was banned for it and rightly )
Made feel unsafe? Practically every time one of these threads pop up. Say one wrong thing and before you know it you're a sexist pig with a week ban! Or in the real world, how about the fact that a group of women can punch a man but if you defend yourself you'll be done for it!
In fairness its the one truely valid point you have made imo it sucks shouldnt happen but yes i totally agree with u it shouldnt a woman shouldnt be able to do it nor should society turn a blind eye to it .0 -
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Sorry but no; that's quite explicitly not a case of someone defining feminism as something pursued in a female's interest.EH, here's one post to be getting on with
I asked who had defined feminism as the promotion of gender equality without reference to sex?, to which you said many
For example?
As has been said extensively, we are not dealing with a rights issue, we are predominantly dealing with an issue of social structures & social norms.99% of the time they have to be, as they are the same rights. If it's an issue that women aren't receiving equal pay, both women & men have the right to the same pay & this right is getting violated in the case of the woman.
These can affect men and women, indeed, but often in different ways. And again, it is natural that those individuals whose interests have been shaped by the societal deficiencies pertaining to one specific grouping will feel more passionate toward the cause of that group than any other.0 -
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Before this thread closes I want to weigh in and say that I've read every word of it and it is the first thread on the subject since I joined boards in Jan 2001 that I've read without wanting to pound my face into a brick wall with rage.
Over the years myself and many others have tried to fly the feminist flag here, and failed. I have been personally insulted over and over (lesbian, ugly, feminazi, man-hating etc. etc.), as have many others who tried to discuss this topic fairly. Many of those other female posters have since closed their accounts as the stress was simply not worth it. Which is genuinely sad.
Micky Dolenz, thank you so much for your moderation of this thread - stellar. Millicent, I want to say a special thank you to you for hanging on in there and for being so vulnerable and honest. I'm also hugely encouraged by contributions of many of the men and women in this thread. Some of you may feel frustrated, but believe me, this is a world apart from previous threads. The one that upset me most was years back when I complained about some posters on AH saying that all a particular woman in the public eye needed to loosen up was a big, hard cock up her ass. That was the thread that for me was the straw that broke the camel's back and led me to step out of arguments relating to feminism in Ireland. I was particularly amazed at the backlash from women directed at me on that thread, because I complained about the misogynistic language that was tolerated around here.
This thread though has been quite fruitful.
A few points to add:
Internationally, the plight of women is still horrendous.
Property owned by women 1%
Working hours performed by women 66%
Food produced by women 50%
Income received by women 10%
For in depth and up to date statistical details for anyone who is interested read this publication from 2010 by the UN: The World's Women 2010: Trends and Statistics (or read its summary).
As for me: I had a father who was a feminist and am now married to a man who is a feminist. Growing up in an egalitarian (and incidentally un-churched) household, the sexism of Irish culture came as a bit of a shock to me. I went to a progressive all-girls school and was amazed at summer camp to encounter the "girls are sh1te" attitude from the lads. Despite our excellent primary education, we had no PE. Yes, none whatsoever. I only realised the deficiency of this when I got older and didn't know how to play sports.
I went to a secondary school that did not offer technical drawing, woodwork, physics or honours maths (this is the nineties). I converted to Christianity as a young adult in a reformed context where women are ordained etc., and was stunned at university to meet the traditional anti-woman attitudes of the majority church (I'm amazed that the sexism of the church hasn't come up at all here). In the work place I was shocked at the expectation that I would be the one to make the tea etc. When I took up jogging I was stunned that men in cars would shout things at me...not just occasionally, but almost every time I was out.
Hardly a tale of woe, but that's the Irish reality. I wish to challenge such attitudes, and all other negative attitudes as experienced by the women in this thread. I wish to challenge them not just for the good of women, but also for the good of men. Men are not who they are supposed to be when they hold their equals as something lower than them.
Am I a feminist? Hell yes.
But let me tell you. My egalitarian ways can be put to the test. I work with male-only sex offenders. And I love the work (and dare I say it, I love the men). And something they tell me over and over is that for them, women were just things. "An object with holes" as one fella put it a couple of weeks ago. And therefore they did not need to be cared for, nurtured, respected etc. Where did their attitudes come from? In a large part from the culture in which they were raised. They had fathers who raped their mothers (or them). Does this excuse their behaviour? Not for a second. Does it explain it? Somewhat. Why do I work with them? I want them to change. I want their lives to resemble what a man's life should. And I want women and children to be safer.
Generational disrespect of women must change. But it's such a difficult complex subject - a quick read of any of the popular feminist literature of the moment will tell you that. (Try as suggested already Female Chauvinist Pigs or Living Dolls to get you started. Or google articles by Caitlin Flanagan.) Hell, a glance at the Sun newspaper will tell you that.
All we can do as individuals as far as possible is to fight for anyone whose rights are less than ours. We can listen when people say they are hurting or experiencing inequality. We can oppose sexist attitudes in all forms at every corner. We can also highlight the need for EQUITY - just because college is free doesn't change the fact that travellers, for example, for the most part don't seem to be able to get there. EQUITY is making sure that there is ease of access for all to claim their rights. This is why girls and women need extra encouragement in certain areas - to counter the negative voices in their culture telling them that they're nothing if they're not physically perfect specimens. Likewise, boys need to be given the space to develop, express emotion and have the freedom to engage whatever interests they might have, and to hell with machismo.
I don't think men and women are the same. For better or for worse, we are different. But that should not affect our equal status or our right to respect. We are not all the way there yet. But we are getting there.
Thanks for the thread, everyone.0 -
That wasn't aggressive.Roy Yummy Grenade wrote: »Really there is no need to be aggressive
Most of the women problems have been dealt with to death too. Don't dismiss it when it's a male problem. You asked for examples.Roy Yummy Grenade wrote: »dealt with to death on this thread but of course its wrong.
So have most women's issues to do with equality but they're still brought up.Roy Yummy Grenade wrote: »again as a recent poster stated has been rectified
I don't think soRoy Yummy Grenade wrote: »Hmm i think thats more a male on male crime
No, you instigated it and worse than that it was in retort to a she, not a he as you think.Roy Yummy Grenade wrote: »No i adhered to it and its was only and may i add stupidly rising to a previous posters vile comment (he was banned for it and rightly )Micky Dolenz wrote: »So whats your point?
Are we going back to the "We get screwed more" mentality. It isn't a competition of which gender suffers sexism more.
My point is, that's the reason it's difficult to discuss.0 -
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