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Why is sexism such a difficult topic?

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Comments

  • #572
    hardbackwriter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭hardbackwriter


    The King of Moo wrote: »
    hardbackwriter wrote: »
    women have achieved parity of esteem with men in this country , it's clear from reading this thread however that that isn't enough , men like Rugged GAA players must be civilised and purged of all percieved innapropraite behaviour , essentially , men must be purged of their base traditional charechtetistics

    Who's asking for this? Do you consider a man treating a woman like an object a base traditional male characteristic?

    You're arguing against strawmen, creating radical, irrational arguments to get angry about, yet no-one on here is supporting such arguments, or even mentioning them, except you!


    Gaa players and soccer players were spoken about in disapproving tones earlier on , terms like macho culture were used and how sports stats have a tendency for egotism , a perceived traditional male trait


  • #573
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Seachmall wrote: »
    I made no comments about your experience and definitely made no comments about the experience of thousands of other women.

    My comments were in reference to your arguments. Which I stand by.

    Once again, I never referred to the reality of anyone's lives, just your argument.

    If you had personal experience of it then that's fine, but it doesn't make for an argument as to what the police's intent was.

    Their intent was often questioned at the time - in particular they were accused, with some justification, of not putting enough resources in place as the first victims were prostitutes. The investigation only really got going after the November 1980 murder of Jacqueline Hill in Leeds- Sutcliffe was arrested in Sheffield in Jan 1981.

    The message they broadcast, regardless of their intent, was clear. Society could continue to function if women stayed at home, it couldn't if men did. Women's work was disposable, men's was vital.

    The overwhelming message given to women was - really, your contribution is nice and all, but it doesn't really matter in the overall scheme of things. We can still function without you working.


  • #574
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »
    Most people want to be attractive to the opposite sex, masculinity attracts women and femininity attracts men.
    Heterosexual men don't describe themselves as feminists so they won't be seen as feminine and will be more attractive to women as a result?

    I've heard it all now...

    Personally, I would think that a man standing up for the rights of women and calling out others when they are disrespectful or discriminatory on the basis of sex would be seen as virtuous and very attractive. Maybe I'm just crazy.

    Although, I'm not sure attraction has anything to do with this thread in the first place.

    While we're at it, what do you mean by "masculinity" and "femininity" to start with?


  • #575
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    hardbackwriter wrote: »
    women have achieved parity of esteem with men in this country , it's clear from reading this thread however that that isn't enough , men like Rugged GAA players must be civilised and purged of all percieved innapropraite behaviour , essentially , men must be purged of their base traditional charechtetistics

    You can keep your base traditional characteristics, and see women as equal.

    Do you see women as equal?


  • #576
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »
    Assuming feminism is about gender equality for women then yes it is hypocritical not to campaign at least rarely for situations where women are treated better.

    Thank you for clarifying your position, I wasn't sure I quite had grasped it.

    You're wrong.

    (Not going to bother posting anything to support my answer since that seems to be the standard here)


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  • #577
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Nothing shameful, not at all. I just don't think the word represents the movement well. It's about equality of sexes, why one sex in the title?
    Because it does have a female focus, and that's ok, and necessary.

    Men's right's groups, feminists, gay rights groups, black rights groups etc. are all components of equalism. They are all for equality, but they focus on issues affecting certain groups


  • #578
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    yawha wrote: »
    Because it does have a female focus, and that's ok, and necessary.

    Men's right's groups, feminists, gay rights groups, black rights groups etc. are all components of equalism. They are all for equality, but they focus on issues affecting certain groups

    Okay, you've explained it well to me :).


  • #579
    Scanlas The 2nd
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,144 ✭✭✭Scanlas The 2nd


    yawha wrote: »
    Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »
    Most people want to be attractive to the opposite sex, masculinity attracts women and femininity attracts men.
    Heterosexual men don't describe themselves as feminists so they won't be seen as feminine and will be more attractive to women as a result?

    I've heard it all now...

    Personally, I would think that a man standing up for the rights of women and calling out others when they are disrespectful or discriminatory on the basis of sex would be seen as virtuous and very attractive. Maybe I'm just crazy.

    Although, I'm not sure attraction has anything to do with this thread in the first place.

    While we're at it, what do you mean by "masculinity" and "femininity" to start with?
    Putting words in my mouth.

    A man might not want to be labelled feminine as it is unattractivek to women and vice versa. Compliment some women on how butch they are and tell me how you get on.

    A man standing up for the rights of women with no alterior motive is indeed virtuous. Not as confident about the attractive part.


  • #580
    The King of Moo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    hardbackwriter wrote: »
    Gaa players and soccer players were spoken about in disapproving tones earlier on , terms like macho culture were used and how sports stats have a tendency for egotism , a perceived traditional male trait

    I'm only going to say this one more time.

    I was NOT talking about all sportsmen, or even all male G.A.A players.

    I've made that clear on many occasions.

    midlandsmissus wrote about the situation in her own town, where she sees a male-dominated sport having a great, and at times sexist influence.

    She never said all G.A.A players are like this.

    I said that I could see how such a situation could arise, but never once said anything that might even begin to come close to being perceived as a statement that all sportsmen or G.A.A players are macho neanderthals who need to have their fundamental characteristics altered.

    Yet you've constantly wilfully ignored my points and imagined grand sweeping statements which you could then point out as being stupid.
    The only problem is that no-one's made these statements. They're coming from your imagination.

    I hate to say this, and I always try to respond to people in a fair way and keep a discussion going, but I'm tired of arguing about this with you.
    It's not adding anything to the thread.

    If you're not going to accurately acknowledge what I or others are saying, I'm going to stop arguing with you now.


  • #581
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »
    Putting words in my mouth.

    A man might not want to be labelled feminine as it is unattractivek to women and vice versa. Compliment some women on how butch they are and tell me how you get on.

    A man standing up for the rights of women with no alterior motive is indeed virtuous. Not as confident about the attractive part.

    I was a loosehead prop foward for Munster and Ireland - and damn fine in the scrum even if I say so myself (and I could play both sides) .

    You may all complement me on my butchness now.


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  • #582
    hardbackwriter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭hardbackwriter


    Seachmall wrote: »
    hardbackwriter wrote: »
    men must be purged of their base traditional charechtetistics

    That's Militant/Radical feminism.

    A small division in feminism.

    well at least your not denying thats the mission of aspects of feminism


  • #583
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    I'm not having a go at all sport, but it plays a massive part in sexism.

    Who are the main role models for young guys today: soccer stars in England.
    Do they treat women like sh*te - yes.

    The media influences young men - and the pattern is played out everywhere.


    Now a question I have: sports stars are in general the role models for young men, who are the female role models for women in society? What arena is there for them to showcase their talents and for women to look up to them?

    In sport they are not anywhere near as revered as men, where are women celebrated for being great women? Who do young women have to look up to?


  • #584
    hardbackwriter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭hardbackwriter


    yawha wrote: »
    Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »
    Most people want to be attractive to the opposite sex, masculinity attracts women and femininity attracts men.
    Heterosexual men don't describe themselves as feminists so they won't be seen as feminine and will be more attractive to women as a result?

    I've heard it all now...

    Personally, I would think that a man standing up for the rights of women and calling out others when they are disrespectful or discriminatory on the basis of sex would be seen as virtuous and very attractive. Maybe I'm just crazy.

    Although, I'm not sure attraction has anything to do with this thread in the first place.

    While we're at it, what do you mean by "masculinity" and "femininity" to start with?


    You find that idea odd because your a self proclaimed feminist, most women are not feminists and those same women prefer a more traditionally masculine male , while most of the women in this thread might view later as attractive due to his feminist dearly held principals, id hazzard a guess he would likely be seen as unusual to the majority of women compared to a guy who plays football instead of supporting womens lib movements


  • #585
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    In sport they are not anywhere near as revered as men, where are women celebrated for being great women? Who do young women have to look up to?
    Women's sport is a difficult one. It's only the very top, elite male sports stars who are revered and celebrated. You don't see many people get excited about a 3rd division male soccer team.

    Right now, the top women's sports teams aren't usually at the same standard as the top men's teams, and they make for less entertaining spectacles as a result.

    Of course, while people will trot out "biology" as the overbearing reason, I think there's a lot more going on such as less girls being raised to play sports and really push themselves the same way a lot more boys are.


  • #586
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    hardbackwriter wrote: »
    You find that idea odd because your a self proclaimed feminist, most women are not feminists and those same women prefer a more traditionally masculine male , while most of the women in this thread might view later as attractive due to his feminist dearly held principals, id hazzard a guess he would likely be seen as unusual to the majority of women compared to a guy who plays football instead of supporting womens lib movements

    And most men who are uncomfortable with the idea that they might be seen to have taken on "feminine" characteristics are struggling with their own suppressed gay feelings.


    (See I can make totally unsupported blanket statements that I pulled out of my a55 too!")


  • #587
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    yawha wrote: »
    Women's sport is a difficult one. It's only the very top, elite male sports stars who are revered and celebrated. You don't see many people get excited about a 3rd division male soccer team.

    Right now, the top women's sports teams aren't usually at the same standard as the top men's teams, and they make for less entertaining spectacles as a result.

    Of course, while people will trot out "biology" as the overbearing reason, I think there's a lot more going on such as less girls being raised to play sports and really push themselves the same way a lot more boys are.

    Yes, not talking about sport now, where men are really celebrated. Where are women celebrated for being great women in society? Is there anywhere?


  • #588
    Feathers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Yes, not talking about sport now, where men are really celebrated. Where are women celebrated for being great women in society? Is there anywhere?

    Actresses & singers, I guess.


  • #589
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    hardbackwriter wrote: »
    You find that idea odd because your a self proclaimed feminist, most women are not feminists and those same women prefer a more traditionally masculine male , while most of the women in this thread might view later as attractive due to his feminist dearly held principals, id hazzard a guess he would likely be seen as unusual to the majority of women compared to a guy who plays football instead of supporting womens lib movements
    I think women vary as individuals in what they think and what they find attractive a lot more than you think. I also think that many more females consider themselves feminists, or at least are aligned with feminist ideals, even if they dislike the label, than you assert.

    Also, when you say "masculine", what do you mean exactly? There are a lot of behaviours that can be viewed as traditionally masculine which are not sexist or misogynistic, and which don't have to imply that the man in question is anti-feminism. They're not mutually exclusive.

    Also, I never proclaimed myself a feminist. Don't think I'd actually identify with the label. I generally prefer profeminist or feminist ally for various reasons.


  • #590
    Bigtoe107
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 378 ✭✭Bigtoe107


    I have read the majority of this thread and tbh I have learned alot, so I would like to take this opportunity to thank all posters, to avoid the majority of bickering is a great achievement.

    However it still does not change my babe belief that feminism is an archaic movement pandering to the needs of women. I genuinely there are issues of discrimination against women but I believe these fall under equality and societal issues which negatively affect both men and women so we (men and women) should provide a united front, to fight these injustices.

    In addition to this I feel men's issues are not simply confined to fathers rights, although this is a great injustice; a man's position in society brings with it certain expectations. To be physically active, to be brave, to work and provide for a family, to protect the women in their lives, to allow women a seat on public transport, to pay for date's, to buy engagement rings, to be the instigator in almost all relationships, to be interested in guns, cars, sports and to show almost no signs of weakness. These expectations are damaging to both men and women yet are dismissed in most arguments.

    In the workplace it is my opinion that the discrimination against women is grossly over exaggerated. In my experience women are given the greater choice between home and work life, also (ill be slated for this) women get an easier ride in some sections of the workplace. Most work related deaths/ injury's are males, men also work longer hours in less hospitable conditions and commute further to work. In the UK (not sure about Ireland) men can legally get the state pension upon retirement at 65, while women despite living on average 6 years longer can retire at 60. There are also quite a lot of female centred fields such as childcare and teaching. While quotas are being introduced male dominated sectors

    From a legal point of view discrimination against men is clear, fathers rights have been mentioned so I won't go over that again but the discrimination also occurs in areas of sentencing and even legal definitions such as rape. The right to vote is also bandied about however presently in the us, a man must register for the draft in order to vote, this requirement is waived in a women's case

    Spending in sectors such as healthcare is also skewed toward women with great awareness of problems such as breast cancer and the introduction of the cervical vaccination (not to say this is a bad thing).

    Advertising and the media regularly portray men in a demeaning light.

    To be honest I could go on, (I haven't even mentioned male suicide rates) but what I do acknowledge is that there are undue pressures on women to fulfil traditional gender roles among other things I just truly believe a more egalitarian approach would be beneficial for all. Also i'm going to link to this thread again as it says more than I ever could http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055849345


  • #591
    Feeona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,633 ✭✭✭Feeona


    Bigtoe107 wrote: »
    I have read the majority of this thread and tbh I have learned alot, so I would like to take this opportunity to thank all posters, to avoid the majority of bickering is a great achievement.

    However it still does not change my babe belief that feminism is an archaic movement pandering to the needs of women. I genuinely there are issues of discrimination against women but I believe these fall under equality and societal issues which negatively affect both men and women so we (men and women) should provide a united front, to fight these injustices.

    In addition to this I feel men's issues are not simply confined to fathers rights, although this is a great injustice; a man's position in society brings with it certain expectations. To be physically active, to be brave, to work and provide for a family, to protect the women in their lives, to allow women a seat on public transport, to pay for date's, to buy engagement rings, to be the instigator in almost all relationships, to be interested in guns, cars, sports and to show almost no signs of weakness. These expectations are damaging to both men and women yet are dismissed in most arguments.

    In the workplace it is my opinion that the discrimination against women is grossly over exaggerated. In my experience women are given the greater choice between home and work life, also (ill be slated for this) women get an easier ride in some sections of the workplace. Most work related deaths/ injury's are males, men also work longer hours in less hospitable conditions and commute further to work. In the UK (not sure about Ireland) men can legally get the state pension upon retirement at 65, while women despite living on average 6 years longer can retire at 60. There are also quite a lot of female centred fields such as childcare and teaching. While quotas are being introduced male dominated sectors

    From a legal point of view discrimination against men is clear, fathers rights have been mentioned so I won't go over that again but the discrimination also occurs in areas of sentencing and even legal definitions such as rape. The right to vote is also bandied about however presently in the us, a man must register for the draft in order to vote, this requirement is waived in a women's case

    Spending in sectors such as healthcare is also skewed toward women with great awareness of problems such as breast cancer and the introduction of the cervical vaccination (not to say this is a bad thing).

    Advertising and the media regularly portray men in a demeaning light.

    To be honest I could go on, (I haven't even mentioned male suicide rates) but what I do acknowledge is that there are undue pressures on women to fulfil traditional gender roles among other things I just truly believe a more egalitarian approach would be beneficial for all.

    I agree with many of your points re sexism against men.

    But imagine starting a thread to discuss it and being told

    1. It doesn't happen
    2. But it happens to women too!
    3. Show us your penis!
    4. Get back in the garage
    5. Get out and earn me some money.
    6. You're gay
    7. You're ugly

    These are what a woman could say in reply were she so inclined. Add in petty point scoring, and the discussion is quickly derailed. Would you think your opinion was being taken seriously if these were the kinds of replies you got?


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  • #592
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Sorry if double replying but I can't seem to see my post :confused:
    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    I'm not having a go at all sport, but it plays a massive part in sexism.

    Who are the main role models for young guys today: soccer stars in England.
    Do they treat women like sh*te - yes.

    The media influences young men - and the pattern is played out everywhere.


    Now a question I have: sports stars are in general the role models for young men, who are the female role models for women in society? What arena is there for them to showcase their talents and for women to look up to them?

    In sport they are not anywhere near as revered as men, where are women celebrated for being great women? Who do young women have to look up to?

    From a guys perspective I don't really see how this situation isn't just as harmful for men in that it encourages young men to devote themselves to a field that in reality apart from the very very best it holds no prospective of (decent) employment, admittedly I see the WAG's thing as a bit fcuked up but is this not more an issue of the sexualisation of young people rather than sexism?

    In terms of Feminism, people may find it it hard to get a handle on, for example a "2nd wave" feminist will probably hold diametrically opposed opinions to a "3rd wave feminist", I know it confuses me especially if it involves people approaching from a homosexual viewpoint with the whole area of "queer theory" (honestly the only person I know that would describe themselves as feminist is a Lesbian though I'm sure all the others are also against sexism).

    Also in terms of difficulty of discussion I know what annoys me is the emphasis placed by some on experiential (is that the right word :confused:) knowledge, this approach effectively means that instead of a person being able to reply to a point they may be construed as attacking the author personally.


  • #593
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    Bigtoe107 wrote: »
    I believe these fall under equality and societal issues which negatively affect both men and women so we (men and women) should provide a united front, to fight these injustices.
    Why? What advantages are there to a united front?

    I tend to believe that "divide and conquer" would be much more effective. It's unwieldy having too many issues lumped together under the same banner.

    Also, FWIW, as a guy, I personally don't feel the effects of nearly any of the discrimination re: expectations etc. that you've mentioned.


  • #594
    PrincessLola
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 851 ✭✭✭PrincessLola


    Bigtoe107 wrote: »
    I have read the majority of this thread and tbh I have learned alot, so I would like to take this opportunity to thank all posters, to avoid the majority of bickering is a great achievement.

    However it still does not change my babe belief that feminism is an archaic movement pandering to the needs of women. I genuinely there are issues of discrimination against women but I believe these fall under equality and societal issues which negatively affect both men and women so we (men and women) should provide a united front, to fight these injustices.

    Just because it focuses on women, its pandering? OK then.
    In addition to this I feel men's issues are not simply confined to fathers rights, although this is a great injustice; a man's position in society brings with it certain expectations. To be physically active, to be brave, to work and provide for a family, to protect the women in their lives, to allow women a seat on public transport, to pay for date's, to buy engagement rings, to be the instigator in almost all relationships, to be interested in guns, cars, sports and to show almost no signs of weakness. These expectations are damaging to both men and women yet are dismissed in most arguments.

    If you read this thread like you say you have then you'll know the feminists on here agree with you.
    Women have huge sociological expectations too, to be not too slutty but not too virginial, to have children and a career, to be thin and youthful looking always. Yet you appear to be dismissing these.
    In the workplace it is my opinion that the discrimination against women is grossly over exaggerated. In my experience women are given the greater choice between home and work life, also (ill be slated for this) women get an easier ride in some sections of the workplace. Most work related deaths/ injury's are males, men also work longer hours in less hospitable conditions and commute further to work. In the UK (not sure about Ireland) men can legally get the state pension upon retirement at 65, while women despite living on average 6 years longer can retire at 60. There are also quite a lot of female centred fields such as childcare and teaching. While quotas are being introduced male dominated sectors

    The fact that it is your opinion doesn't make it right, nor valid.

    I love how you dismissed the disadvantages of hundreds of thousands of women as 'exaggerated'. That was really charming.

    Male dominated sectors are more dangerous, men choose to work in these sectors though. While I disagee entirely with quotas it is also worth noting that male teachers have an easier time getting hired, due to schools' interest in gender balanced teaching staff.

    You are completely refusing to admit the merits of feminism, yet feminists will champion the merits of fathers' rights. Like I said, you have to meet us half-way, feminism makes no apologies for being about women.


  • #595
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Bigtoe107 wrote: »
    I have read the majority of this thread and tbh I have learned alot, so I would like to take this opportunity to thank all posters, to avoid the majority of bickering is a great achievement.

    However it still does not change my babe belief that feminism is an archaic movement pandering to the needs of women. I genuinely there are issues of discrimination against women but I believe these fall under equality and societal issues which negatively affect both men and women so we (men and women) should provide a united front, to fight these injustices.

    In addition to this I feel men's issues are not simply confined to fathers rights, although this is a great injustice; a man's position in society brings with it certain expectations. To be physically active, to be brave, to work and provide for a family, to protect the women in their lives, to allow women a seat on public transport, to pay for date's, to buy engagement rings, to be the instigator in almost all relationships, to be interested in guns, cars, sports and to show almost no signs of weakness. These expectations are damaging to both men and women yet are dismissed in most arguments.

    In the workplace it is my opinion that the discrimination against women is grossly over exaggerated. In my experience women are given the greater choice between home and work life, also (ill be slated for this) women get an easier ride in some sections of the workplace. Most work related deaths/ injury's are males, men also work longer hours in less hospitable conditions and commute further to work. In the UK (not sure about Ireland) men can legally get the state pension upon retirement at 65, while women despite living on average 6 years longer can retire at 60. There are also quite a lot of female centred fields such as childcare and teaching. While quotas are being introduced male dominated sectors

    From a legal point of view discrimination against men is clear, fathers rights have been mentioned so I won't go over that again but the discrimination also occurs in areas of sentencing and even legal definitions such as rape. The right to vote is also bandied about however presently in the us, a man must register for the draft in order to vote, this requirement is waived in a women's case

    Spending in sectors such as healthcare is also skewed toward women with great awareness of problems such as breast cancer and the introduction of the cervical vaccination (not to say this is a bad thing).

    Advertising and the media regularly portray men in a demeaning light.

    To be honest I could go on, (I haven't even mentioned male suicide rates) but what I do acknowledge is that there are undue pressures on women to fulfil traditional gender roles among other things I just truly believe a more egalitarian approach would be beneficial for all. Also i'm going to link to this thread again as it says more than I ever could http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055849345

    Lol. A bit of light relief to the thread. Freudian slip? :)


  • #596
    Feathers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    Feeona wrote: »
    I agree with many of your points re sexism against men.

    But imagine starting a thread to discuss it and being told

    1. It doesn't happen
    2. But it happens to women too!
    3. Show us your penis!
    4. Get back in the garage
    5. Get out and earn me some money.
    6. You're gay
    7. You're ugly

    These are what a woman could say in reply were she so inclined. Add in petty point scoring, and the discussion is quickly derailed. Would you think your opinion was being taken seriously if these were the kinds of replies you got?

    But again, then why are the efforts to resolve these & sexism against women not being done from a neutral standpoint?

    I'd be much less likely to respond negatively to a lobby group for equality taking about how we can have a more balanced Dáil from across all sectors in society & what factors are keeping non-traditional members out, for example, rather than the NWC saying that for years men have kept women out of politics by not selecting them.


  • #597
    dark crystal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    My point is that it was considered acceptable by the authorities to suggest that approx 50% of the adult population had no real business going out at night based only on their gender.

    Tell me this - why couldn't the other 50% of the population have been told ' Look, a man is committing these horrendous crimes so we are asking all men to please stay indoors until we catch him. Any man out at night will be stopped and questioned and we will ask you to provide ID plus a record of your movement that we can verify'?

    The answer was because officialdom believed that women didn't need to go out at night, but men did. One couldn't seriously advise men not to go out - they had important things to do, but women - sure they will all be watching Corrie on the Tele and none of them have any business being out after dark if they are respectable. Do you really think the message that sends is acceptable?

    Remember this included winter when it gets dark by 5 p.m. - so women didn't have jobs that finished after dark? Women didn't attend lectures that finished after dark (one of Sutcliffe's victim was 20-year-old Jacqueline Hill, a student at the University of Leeds, he killed her on 17 November - while on bail awaiting trial for a night time DUI arrest).

    Can you imagine the outrage now if women were 'advised' not to go out after dark by the police and if they did the implication being what happens to them is their own fault as they had been warned? Yet, at the time this was deemed perfectly acceptable by the authorities.
    Things changed because of campaigns like Reclaim The Night (a global movement) showed up the double standards for what they were - one rule for men, another rule for women.


    Now it's overreactions like this that tend to give feminism a bad name, imo.

    Police advising women to stay in after dark to protect themselves from a rampaging killer of women suddenly equals male opression over the female gender - it's just daft logic.

    I, for one, would certainly not be outraged if it was suggested by the police that in order to protect myself from a woman-murdering maniac roaming the streets of town, it may be in my best interest to stay in after dark to avoid meeting a rather nasty end. In fact, I wouldn't need the police to work that out for myself.

    The reason they didn't advise men to do the same was because the male of the species didn't interest Sutcliffe, seeing as he only enjoyed killing women.

    I'm sure there wasn't a law prohibiting women from working after dark, it was most probably a warning to women to be extra cautious when having to go out after dark and avoid it altogether if at all possible (I'm sure they knew women had to work unsociable hours - they're not stupid people)

    If this is really what made some women angry, instead of the fact that a guy was out killing women based on their gender, it implies that in this case, feminism really overtook logic. In this case, my life would certainly take priority over my idealogical principles for sure.


  • #598
    PrincessLola
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 851 ✭✭✭PrincessLola


    Feathers wrote: »
    But again, then why are the efforts to resolve these & sexism against women not being done from a neutral standpoint?

    I'd be much less likely to respond negatively to a lobby group for equality taking about how we can have a more balanced Dáil from across all sectors in society & what factors are keeping non-traditional members out, for example, rather than the NWC saying that for years men have kept women out of politics by not selecting them.

    Isn't that self-centred? Only being interested in something because it effects you personally. Do you only give to charity if it goes to an Irish cause?.
    Like it or not, men have descriminated against women on a large institutionalised scale, misogyny still exists in internalised attitudes. Why should feminism have to tip-toe around you?


  • #599
    Morag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Morag


    Feminism was never only just about equal rights and opportunities.
    It has always also been about challenging attitudes to gender and encouraging and empowering women to excise their rights and to take up those opportunities esp when they are breaking new ground gender wise.


  • #600
    Feathers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    PrincessLola wrote: »
    Isn't that self-centred? Only being interested in something because it effects you personally. Do you only give to charity if it goes to an Irish cause?.
    Like it or not, men have descriminated against women on a large institutionalised scale, misogyny still exists in internalised attitudes. Why should feminism have to tip-toe around you?

    It shouldn't/that's not what I was saying at all. MD started the thread by putting out the question of why threads on sexism always turn into flaming & why it's a difficult topic to discuss.

    I was just saying that if the goal is to improve equality, it would be more affective to come at the issue from a less blame-laying standpoint.

    Do you believe that institutionalised discrimination is still prevalent?


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  • #601
    hardbackwriter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭hardbackwriter


    Sharrow wrote: »
    Feminism was never only just about equal rights and opportunities.
    It has always also been about challenging attitudes to gender and encouraging and empowering women to excise their rights and to take up those opportunities esp when they are breaking new ground gender wise.


    That's what I've been saying all day, it's a war about much more than giving women equal opportunities as men have , it's also about deconstructing traditional definitions of masculinity and restructuring men as they see fit


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