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Only 3,200 graduates apply for €30,000 state jobs

waster81

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/only-3200-graduates-apply-for-30000-state-jobs-3015860.html

Given we hear how cushy a number the public service is, how generous the pay and pensions is compared to the private sector

Why is it that we have such a low number of graduates looking to enter the public service

Is the pay lower than what they could get in the private sector
Is there no sense of public duty/service

Anyone offer an explanation

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waster81

murphaph wrote: »

3,200 is already a 60% increase in applicants compared to the last round of hiring and given that the requirements were stricter this time round, we can safely assume it could have been a 100% increase had they not been as strict.

If the jobs can be filled by anyone, then surely they should have been filled by HSE staff under the CPA. If they cannot be filled by anyone, then that suggests that many of the unemployed also fail to meet the requirements, hence no need to apply.

It's a non-thread tbh. The OP's agenda is clear, but the 60% increase in applications alone rubbishes his entire position.

The Indo and almost every article that comes out of it is also usually roundly condemned as tripe by the PS contingent on here, includng the OP IIRC, so what makes this article any different?

When was the last round of hiring completed - pre or post crisis

A link to the 60% increase would be nice

Its not a non - thread is a discussion on reasons why we only have 3200 applying for jobs and the reasons why

I find it hard to believe that we dont have graduates with the required skill sets

sarumite

waster81 wrote: »

When was the last round of hiring completed - pre or post crisis

A link to the 60% increase would be nice

October 2008 - post crisis

I assume the 60% was taken from this article

waster81 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/only-3200-graduates-apply-for-30000-state-jobs-3015860.html

"The last recruitment campaign for administrative officers was in October 2008 and was aimed at general graduates.
At a time of much lower unemployment rates, it attracted over 2,000 applicants."

relax carry on

Anyone with an interest in working in the Public Sector should've known about the Public Jobs website, as its been the access point for years. If they hadn't signed up for the email alerts, then they should have scanned the site regularly.
General jobseekers who may never have considered a career in the Public sector, should have as a matter of course signed up to any jobsite, including the public job website. Hearing news reports about the moritorium on recruitment is one thing, checking out the truth for yourself is another.

The AO grade from the public jobs website is "a vital role and as Administrative Officer you are involved in the formation of the policies and strategies that improve our economic, financial, international, environmental and social issues. You will be assigned to a parent Government Department/Office"

http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/advice/career/profile.htm

In the past, this grade seems to have aimed at general graduates. But as things have changed lately, this round of recruitment was targeted at specific graduates thereby reducing the numbers who could apply. The number of applicants most likely reflect those qualified to apply.

sarumite

relax carry on wrote: »

Anyone with an interest in working in the Public Sector should've known about the Public Jobs website, as its been the access point for years. If they hadn't signed up for the email alerts, then they should have scanned the site regularly.
General jobseekers who may never have considered a career in the Public sector, should have as a matter of course signed up to any jobsite, including the public job website.

I was looking for a job last year. I signed up to several jobsite at which point my inbox was flooded, most of which is absolute junk . After a while you learn to pick and choose carefully. Its not a case of wanting to be selective, but having to be selective. Wading through the crap emails takes up too much time and saps your energy which is better focused at looking at genuine leads. They say you should always work smart, not necessarily hard. The same applies when you are looking for a job.

galway2007

Paulzx wrote: »

Thats not the question asked.

Why have so few people applied when we're told day after day that jobs are like hens teeth and public service jobs are cushy, gold plated, sit around all day and scratch your arse etc. etc.

We have 450,000 people unemployed(most through no fault of their own).

I find it hard to believe that only 3000 are qualified to apply

Because Irish people believe everything there hear on RTE and in the Irish independent but they find out the truth when they go to apply for public sector jobs
The great pension that we hear about mean that I have to draw the pension for 18 year before I get back what I have paid into it ( I have to live to 84) but yet some idiots think I am getting it for free.
As I have said before I need money now not when I am 84 so give me back what I have paid in and take away the “GOLD PLATED PENSION"

Sleepy

waster81 wrote: »

Well I'm not looking for a job so wasnt actively looking, but if I were I would look at every available source ( and it was advertised in the papers)

Fair enough, I'd be the same if I was out of work but as others have mentioned on thread, friends of theirs who the job would have suited never saw the ad and most of us were unaware of them. How many job seekers even bother with publicjobs since there's a hiring freeze across the PS. Taking a look at it today, the jobs that are advertised are for *extremely* specific posts that it's safe to say the majority of our live register aren't qualified to apply for (Consultant Radiologist, Director of XYZ for ABC Quango etc.)

I've often questioned the value of publicjobs.ie tbh. Seems a very large overhead to run and maintain versus simply placing a few ads in the standard job sites. No figures to hand and perhaps a topic for another thread but were figures available it'd be interesting to see if it pays it's way or is just another example of government waste and jobs for the boys.

Not all the jobs are admin - where did you see that

article you linked to wrote:

the permanent and pensionable jobs will be at adminsitrative-officer grade

What else would an administrative-officer in the the civil service (an institute whose sole purpose is to administrate) do beyond administration?

So now we have another reason why some are unemployed - what % cant/wont work for €30k

I don't know. With access to the DSP database I should be able to tell you in about 15 minutes flat but I can't imagine they'll let me have that access. Actually, no, I'd need access to the HSE's data too so make that an hour with copies of both sets of data. Since they won't even share it between themselves, I can't see an external data consultant being let near it! Logically however:

The net salary for the jobs in question would be €25,278.

Benefit|Rate|freq|Annual
Rent Allowance|€925|month|€11,100
less personal contrib|€35|week|€1,820
|||€9,280
Dole - Claimant|€188|week|€9,776
Dole - Partner|€124.80|week|€6,490
Dole - Child 1|€29.80|week|€1,550
Dole - Child 2|€29.80|week|€1,550
|||€28,645

So at current welfare rates, family of four renting in Dublin get benefits well in excess of that salary before we even factor in the monetary benefit of a medical card, back to school / communion payments, reduced transport, clothing and ancillary costs of being in employment (staff collections, work nights out, occasional tea/coffess/lunches when you've forgotten to make one etc.)

The same is true of positions in the private sector however, so this simply illustrates why *SOME* people won't apply for these positions. Others may have no interest in *any* job. (see the 150k unemployed/unemployables we had all the way through the boom).

And the other myth- is not worth replying to

You throw up arguments that in reality are false - but only try and justify your stance

You've not proven any of my arguments false. You've dismissed them out of hand.

I've personally been told that a job I was being offered would have to go up on publicjobs "but sure, that would only be a formality" so I wouldn't blame people for being sceptical of government hiring processes. I'd think their actions foolish if they didn't apply for jobs for which they were qualified but I could understand them feeling the jobs weren't worth applying to when I've personal experience of these jobs being advertised to follow the rules rather than to gather candidates.

Fussgangerzone

Godge wrote: »

Rubbish - the minimum qualification for a job as administrative officer is an honours primary degree so lack of qualification is not the issue. See information below.

http://gradireland.com/careers-advice/job-descriptions/civil-service-administratormanager

Just last year we heard of 91,000 unemployed graduates - see below.

http://free-education.info/usi-launches-plan-to-tackle-record-high-of-91000-unemployed-graduates/

So where are the 88,000?

Would you read TFA?

Graduates with qualifications in human resources, law, accountancy, economics, finance/banking and tax policy were invited to apply.

That's going to rule out most of your 88,000.

So if I rock up with my HND, they'd politely tell me to **** off. Happily, I'm currently employed in the private sector, which I actually consider safer than the public sector, as it's a) not under constant attack and b) not solely providing services to nations subject to delusional austerity policies

Fussgangerzone

Sleepy wrote: »

The net salary for the jobs in question would be €25,278.

Benefit|Rate|freq|Annual
Rent Allowance|€925|month|€11,100
less personal contrib|€35|week|€1,820
|||€9,280
Dole - Claimant|€188|week|€9,776
Dole - Partner|€124.80|week|€6,490
Dole - Child 1|€29.80|week|€1,550
Dole - Child 2|€29.80|week|€1,550
|||€28,645

So at current welfare rates, family of four renting in Dublin get benefits well in excess of that salary before we even factor in the monetary benefit of a medical card, back to school / communion payments, reduced transport, clothing and ancillary costs of being in employment (staff collections, work nights out, occasional tea/coffess/lunches when you've forgotten to make one etc.)

I dunno, I heard a vicious rumour that more than one person per couple are allowed work. What's €25,278 times 2 again? Is it €50,556? I think it is.

Add to that the famous pensions, and that family make a lot more money working. As everybody knows

schemingbohemia

Sleepy wrote: »

What else would an administrative-officer in the the civil service (an institute whose sole purpose is to administrate) do beyond administration?

I don't know.

You obviously have no knowledge of what AO's actually do. They don't administrate they assist in forming policy within Departments. The targetting of specialised qualifications this time around sets this process apart from previous competitions.

I was surprised at the low number of applicants. I remember (old timer waffle alert) applying for a librarian assistant job in Trinity back in 1993 where 10,000 applied many of whom would have been graduates. When I got the AO job myself the exams would have had a similar number of applicants (10k) all through the 90s when the pay was significantly worse than it is now.

cursai

People in this country are STILL spoilt whiners. €30000 isn't good enough for them. I saw these jobs advertised on the national papers months back, even the indo had the ad. Was sure they would be swamped with applicants. I've plenty of theories but just wanted to add that they WERE advertised clearly and not just on public jobs.ie(who by the way do email alerts).

ixoy

schemingbohemia wrote: »

You obviously have no knowledge of what AO's actually do. They don't administrate they assist in forming policy within Departments. The targetting of specialised qualifications this time around sets this process apart from previous competitions.

That's not always true though either - sometimes they don't do policy and actually do administrate.

I'd like to know the number of eligible candidates (which is not the 90k) there were and what percentage of those applied.

murphaph

Godge wrote: »

You might be ok for a basic entry clerical officer job with those qualifications.

...or perhaps programming the data entry system itself

MysticalRain

Most graduates I know don't buy dead tree editions of newspapers.

If the PS didn't place job ads on the main job websites (Irishjobs, jobs.ie monster etc), then they weren't advertising the jobs widely enough. The Central bank actually did post jobs on Irishjobs.ie late last year when they were looking for people. So I don't see why other branches of the PS can't do that as well. You can't always expect the mountain to come to Mohammed, even in a recession.

Godge

seamus wrote: »

I think you've just proven my point about how much stock the CS puts in a piece of paper to determine a candidate's ability. You have no idea what I am or am not qualified for, yet you've decided because I don't have an honours degree that I'm incapable of being an administrative officer in the CS.

Yes, and a doctor needs a piece of paper before operating on you, a nurse needs a piece of paper before nursing you, a teacher needs a piece of paper before teaching you, a lawyer needs a piece of paper before representing you, a pharmacist needs a piece of paper before selling you medicine, an accountant needs a piece of paper before auditing your books, an administrative officer needs a piece of paper in order to have the skills necessary for the job (analytical, research, policy, etc.), what's the problem? Lots of jobs have minimum qualifications.

sorry you don't make it but that is not my problem.

Godge

MysticalRain wrote: »

Most graduates I know don't buy dead tree editions of newspapers.

If the PS didn't place job ads on the main job websites (Irishjobs, jobs.ie monster etc), then they weren't advertising the jobs widely enough. The Central bank actually did post jobs on Irishjobs.ie late last year when they were looking for people. So I don't see why other branches of the PS can't do that as well. You can't always expect the mountain to come to Mohammed, even in a recession.

Because they have their own website www.publicjobs.ie and any half-decent employment guide will tell you about it and a google search gets it in seconds.

Godge

Fussgangerzone wrote: »

Would you read TFA?

That's going to rule out most of your 88,000.

So if I rock up with my HND, they'd politely tell me to **** off. Happily, I'm currently employed in the private sector, which I actually consider safer than the public sector, as it's a) not under constant attack and b) not solely providing services to nations subject to delusional austerity policies

Was the quote you linked to from the advertisement for the job or was it from the usually accurate Irish Independent article:rolleyes:? If you show me that other types of graduates were ruled out by the advertisement, then I will accept the point. I won't accept it just because it is written in an article in the Irish Independent.

Cuddlesworth

Godge wrote: »

Yes, and a doctor needs a piece of paper before operating on you, a nurse needs a piece of paper before nursing you, a teacher needs a piece of paper before teaching you, a lawyer needs a piece of paper before representing you, a pharmacist needs a piece of paper before selling you medicine, an accountant needs a piece of paper before auditing your books, an administrative officer needs a piece of paper in order to have the skills necessary for the job (analytical, research, policy, etc.), what's the problem? Lots of jobs have minimum qualifications.

sorry you don't make it but that is not my problem.

I like the way you lead the reader into assuming that the last part needed a piece of paper to do the job. In the real world you don't need a honours degree for the purpose of a administrative officer outside of the public service. So your entire point is invalidated.

Also, you can't stop training as a lawyer, the qualification exams are only the very start of a lifelong process. The same goes for nursing, pharmacy, accountancy and any other professional role. The same does not apply to a Administrative position within the civil service. They are not in the same skill range as each other.

MysticalRain

Godge wrote: »

Because they have their own website www.publicjobs.ie and any half-decent employment guide will tell you about it and a google search gets it in seconds.

The point being if there is a recruitment embargo on, then many people are not going to be checking it. I used to check publicjobs.ie religiously back in the day, but unsubscribed from it when the jobs dried up.

Heaven forbid the PS might actually operate like a private sector company and advertise jobs the normal way.

Godge

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I like the way you lead the reader into assuming that the last part needed a piece of paper to do the job. In the real world you don't need a honours degree for the purpose of a administrative officer outside of the public service. So your entire point is invalidated.

Also, you can't stop training as a lawyer, the qualification exams are only the very start of a lifelong process. The same goes for nursing, pharmacy, accountancy and any other professional role. The same does not apply to a Administrative position within the civil service. They are not in the same skill range as each other.

I used to be a civil servant, I now work in the private sector.

What is meant by an Administrative Officer in the civil service is vastly different to the generally accepted meaning of administrative positions in the private sector.

Fussgangerzone

Godge wrote: »

Was the quote you linked to from the advertisement for the job or was it from the usually accurate Irish Independent article:rolleyes:? If you show me that other types of graduates were ruled out by the advertisement, then I will accept the point. I won't accept it just because it is written in an article in the Irish Independent.

The job was taken down last Friday, so I can't get the listing.
Why would the Indo lie about how narrow the selection process is?
They're not famous for being kind to the unemployed.

As for the figure of 91,000, that's graduates on the Live Register.
So it includes part-time workers and interns, many of whom may be working for little or nothing in an industry they want to get a foothold in, rather than seeking full-time paid employment in a sector where they don't have as many prospects. Worth considering.

n97 mini

Godge wrote: »

What is meant by an Administrative Officer in the civil service is vastly different to the generally accepted meaning of administrative positions in the private sector.

If an Administrative Officer in the PS doesn't perform any administrative duties, what is someone called who does?

Oafley Jones

n97 mini wrote: »

If an Administrative Officer in the PS doesn't perform any administrative duties, what is someone called who does?

Clerical officers. I still didn't see this offered. I'm signed up on Publicjobs, yet all I seem to get notices for, are positions of HEOs or equivalent. Bit annoyed.

marco_polo

I would imagine that 3,200 is a very high proportion of the total number of available graduates with at least a second class honours qualifications in one of human resources, law, accountancy, economics, finance/banking and tax policy (Presuming the article is an accurate summation of the recruitment round).

relax carry on

Links to some hints that there might have been some sort of recruitment drive in 2012.

http://budget.gov.ie/budgets/2012/EstimateStatement.aspx#section7

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/public-service-to-recruit-3000-new-staff-in-2012-2959153.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/the-measures/jobs-promised-in-public-sector-as-400m-payroll-savings-targeted-2955224.html

donalg1

seamus wrote: »

I think you've just proven my point about how much stock the CS puts in a piece of paper to determine a candidate's ability. You have no idea what I am or am not qualified for, yet you've decided because I don't have an honours degree that I'm incapable of being an administrative officer in the CS.

Your said in your post you didnt meet the qualifications for the post but you are still massively overqualified for the job?!!

sarumite

Godge wrote: »

Because they have their own website www.publicjobs.ie and any half-decent employment guide will tell you about it and a google search gets it in seconds.

When I was looking for a job I would check publicjobs.ie once a week, then once a month and then it was very rarely however I regurarly checked the other websites and read their emails. Having a website is one thing, making an effort to direct traffic towards it as another. The obvious argument is that it is up to the jobseeker to check publicjobs.ie and not the otherway around although rightly or wrongly there is widespread belief that there is a recruit moratorium in the PS.

sarumite

relax carry on wrote: »

Links to some hints that there might have been some sort of recruitment drive in 2012.

http://budget.gov.ie/budgets/2012/EstimateStatement.aspx#section7

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/public-service-to-recruit-3000-new-staff-in-2012-2959153.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/the-measures/jobs-promised-in-public-sector-as-400m-payroll-savings-targeted-2955224.html

In fairness, the first is from the budget report. Not exactly bedtime reading. The second specifically states "It is understood that recruitment will be focused on frontline areas including teachers and nurses, with a limited number of specialist personnel also being brought into the civil service." which isn't the same as the jobs being talked about in this thread and third gives little or not details except that "a"limited" number of positions would be filled".

Cuddlesworth

Godge wrote: »

I used to be a civil servant, I now work in the private sector.

What is meant by an Administrative Officer in the civil service is vastly different to the generally accepted meaning of administrative positions in the private sector.

You didn't respond to any of my points, you deflected. We would have similar positions in my current multinational and while a degree would be nice, it would not be a absolute requirement for any non-professional role.

Oafley Jones

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

You didn't respond to any of my points, you deflected. We would have similar positions in my current multinational and while a degree would be nice, it would not be a absolute requirement for any non-professional role.

AO in the vast majority - accountant, solicitor etc - are professional and policy forming roles, I'm sure that when you see AO you're (understandably) thinking of the Clerical Officer grade.

Cuddlesworth

Oafley Jones wrote: »

AO in the vast majority - accountant, solicitor etc - are professional and policy forming roles, I'm sure that when you see AO you're (understandably) thinking of the Clerical Officer grade.

I know that. Its seems to be a mix of Business relationship managers and Business Intelligence in my current company which some other low level roles throw in.

http://www.careerdirections.ie/ShowJobFull.aspx?job_id=672