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Not being able to leave the Catholic Church - Violation of Human Rights?

2»

Comments

  • #52
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    they believe that they eat the flesh of their undead leader every time they go to mass, so i don't care what they claim is their membership.
    the census figures are used for government policy.


  • #53
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Defection is still possible. In the count me out thread, I posted the following message, which I received from the secretary of the bishop of Cashel and Emly:
    Tremelo wrote: »
    As per my post above, here is the reply:

    Dear xxx,

    The procedure regarding formally defecting from the faith is a simple one. Write to me with your relevant details: Name, Address, Date of Birth, Parents’ Names; Parish of Baptism. I will then process your request. I will contact the Parish Priest of the parish of your baptism and ask him to include an annotation regarding your defection in the baptismal records. Once I have received confirmation from the Parish Priest that he has recorded your formal defection from the Catholic Church in the Baptismal Register, I will forward a copy of your Baptismal Certificate carrying the annotation.

    Yours sincerely,


  • #54
    beerbuddy
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭beerbuddy


    Tremelo wrote: »
    Defection is still possible. In the count me out thread, I posted the following message, which I received from the secretary of the bishop of Cashel and Emly:

    Great why then dosent everybody moaning on this form do the same then we can close the thread. By the way it is the census figures that are taken into
    account.Do you think there is somebody in the church with a computer programe crossing off people when they die and emigrate or even defect.


  • #55
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Here it is:

    192484.jpg


  • #56
    TanG411
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,836 ✭✭✭TanG411


    So all you have to do now is to write to your Bishop? Seems too easy. :D


  • #57
    quietriot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭quietriot


    Amtmann wrote: »
    Here it is:

    192484.jpg

    tve48290-00000306-897.gif


  • #58
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Thanks, LEN!


  • #59
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    there was a bit of update to the dormant countmeout campaign http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0215/1224311799604.html
    a canon lawyer told them that the process still applies.


  • #60
    beerbuddy
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭beerbuddy


    expectationlost wrote: »
    there was a bit of update to the dormant countmeout campaign http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0215/1224311799604.html
    a canon lawyer told them that the process still applies.

    Well it just made it informal so the hype would die down.
    Now nobody has to go ape anymore they just need to write a simple letter and thats it, no hoops to jump through. He is still noted as being baptised though.


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  • #61
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,983 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    beerbuddy wrote: »
    Well it just made it informal so the hype would die down.
    Now nobody has to go ape anymore they just need to write a simple letter and thats it, no hoops to jump through. He is still noted as being baptised though.

    no the point of that is that there wasn't any actual change


  • #62
    yeppydeppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭yeppydeppy


    I just got this email from countmeout.ie:
    VATICAN SILENCE LEAVES WOULD-BE DEFECTORS IN LIMBO

    CountMeOut.ie

    12th June 2012
    Countmeout.ie went live in 2009 to allow disaffected Catholics to formally leave the church via a ‘declaration of defection’. A change in Canon Law in 2010 has removed this possibility and many would-be defectors are now in limbo. In February of this year, Count Me Out wrote to Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio, President of the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts in order to seek clarification on this issue. Another letter was sent in April. No response has been received to date.
    Count Me Out spokesperson Paul Dunbar stated: “We receive a steady stream of emails weekly from people who wish to remove themselves from the church. For some, not attending mass or participating in rituals is enough separation. However, others want a more formal procedure, one in which the church acknowledges a person’s right to choose their religion and officially records this fact. The change in Canon Law effectively means these people are barred from leaving”.
    Count Me Out is today writing to Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, in order to seek his assistance in the matter (see letter below). “Archbishop Martin has made a number of statements in which he appears to suggest that those who no longer feel part of the church should reflect on their position within it. We are highlighting the fact that the church continues to hamper the efforts of those who wish to leave and are asking him to raise the matter with Cardinal Coccopalmerio” said Dunbar.
    [ENDS]
    Paul Dunbar 087 9784651
    contact@countmeout.ie

    Letter to Archbishop Diarmuid Martin

    Count Me Out,
    3 Rockview Terrace,
    Middle Glanmire Road,
    Cork.
    Archbishop Diarmuid Martin,
    Archbishop’s House,
    Drumcondra,
    Dublin 9.

    12th June 2012

    Dear Archbishop Martin,
    You may recall receiving a letter from our organisation on February 13th last which you kindly acknowledged. The original was sent to Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio and the purpose of the letter was to ask for clarification on the matter of formal cessation of church membership. I wrote again to the Cardinal on April 13th. To date we have had no response.
    As I am sure you are aware, recent changes to Canon Law have made it impossible to cease one’s membership of the church by way of a ‘declaration of defection’. Count Me Out has argued that there must be an alternative method of formally leaving the church available to those who no longer subscribe to the Catholic faith. Your diocese has proposed a register to record de-facto defections. However, it is apparent that this will have no legal effect in Canon Law.
    I listened with interest to your interview on the Marian Finucane show on June 9th. In the context of a discussion of Irish people’s affiliation with the church you suggested that “...there are some people who are sitting on the fence...they really don’t belong to the church. They might be more honest in themselves in saying ‘I’m going to follow another type of lifestyle and I’m going to be committed to that’”. I welcome your frank acknowledgement of this reality. However, the fact remains that many of the people ‘on the fence’ have already come to the conclusion that they no longer wish to be part of the church. They simply want the church to accept and acknowledge this.
    In light of the lack of response from the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts to our letters of February 13th and April 13th I would be grateful if you would make representations with a view to eliciting a response.
    Yours,
    __________________
    Paul Dunbar
    Count Me Out Co-Founder


  • #63
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    As I am sure you are aware, recent changes to Canon Law have made it impossible to cease one’s membership of the church by way of a ‘declaration of defection’.

    If the above is true, then how come I successfully defected by email a few months ago?


  • #64
    yeppydeppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭yeppydeppy


    Can you provide more details on how and what you did?
    I was able to get them to say (via email) they had made a note in their register that I no longer wished to be counted as catholic but I've no proof they did anything.


  • #65
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    yeppydeppy wrote: »
    Can you provide more details on how and what you did?
    I was able to get them to say (via email) they had made a note in their register that I no longer wished to be counted as catholic but I've no proof they did anything.

    Sure. I emailed the bishop of the diocese where I was baptized, told him that I renounced belief in supernatural entities, and said I wanted to leave the church. His secretary promptly replied and explained the procedure for defection. I gave him the required information and within two weeks I received this document.


  • #66
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Amtmann wrote: »
    If the above is true, then how come I successfully defected by email a few months ago?
    Looks like news of the Vatican's change hasn't reached Cashel/Emly yet. Hasn't reached Killarney either, if my conversation with the parochial house there last year was anything to go by.


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  • #67
    yeppydeppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭yeppydeppy


    Below is the email I got, I'm just not sure it's enough?

    Cloyne Diocesan Office info@cloynediocese.ie

    23/12/2011

    Yeppydeppy,

    I can now confirm that a note has been made in the baptism register stating that you no longer wish to be considered a member of the Catholic church.


    Yours sincerely,


    Fr Jim Killeen


  • #68
    Pedant
    Closed Accounts Posts: 919 ✭✭✭Pedant


    Technically it is. But so is not being allowed to give up you citizenship of your country of birth (if that were the case).


  • #69
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,352 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    [/QUOTE]
    My apologies, MrPudding. I have confused you with UglyBolloxFace[/Quote]
    Best post ever?

    Ah, context. The enemy of comedy....


  • #70
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    The secret of good comedyistiming.


  • #71
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    I think those who want declarations and annulifications from the Catholic Church are still in its thrall. If I were to leave A+A on Boards, would I have a right to a formal declaration of disenposting?
    When I left the darts club over that disputed triple 20 all I said was **** youse and the secretary said well **** you too. And that was it. A very simple ceremony.
    When you leave, you leave.


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  • #72
    yeppydeppy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭yeppydeppy


    Yes, that's fine, from my point of view I've left the chruch and everyone I know knows that. But I don't want the catholic chruch bolstering their numbers by counting me as a member, which is why they've stopped us defecting - I think.


  • #73
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,210 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Banbh wrote: »
    I think those who want declarations and annulifications from the Catholic Church are still in its thrall. If I were to leave A+A on Boards, would I have a right to a formal declaration of disenposting?
    When I left the darts club over that disputed triple 20 all I said was **** youse and the secretary said well **** you too. And that was it. A very simple ceremony.
    When you leave, you leave.

    But if the darts club wanted to book a pub for a competition and said they had 20 members, then only 14 show up because 6 people left the club but were still technically on the books as being members, then the pub doesn't get as much money as they were led to believe they would.

    Yes, you've left the darts club, but they're still using your record as a member for their own gain.

    (The above is purely an analogy. I have no idea if you were ever a member of a darts club or if they held any such competitions or anything.)


  • #74
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Banbh wrote: »
    I think those who want declarations and annulifications from the Catholic Church are still in its thrall. If I were to leave A+A on Boards, would I have a right to a formal declaration of disenposting?
    When I left the darts club over that disputed triple 20 all I said was **** youse and the secretary said well **** you too. And that was it. A very simple ceremony.
    When you leave, you leave.
    And today's prize for spectactularly missing the point goes to...

    MrP


  • #75
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    Well if it's only to stop the Catholic Church claiming the numbers, getting an official letter of non-membership wouldn't make a difference. In fact, I think they base their membership numbers on the Census.
    No, I think people want some recognition from the Catholic Church because they accept its magisterium, even in the negative.


  • #76
    Newaglish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,734 ✭✭✭Newaglish


    I used to care about this but then I realised that I don't give two hoots about what the Catholic Church thinks or says about me and given that their canon laws and rules and whatnot are complete nonsense, I treat it the same way as when I left the Cub Scouts or my old athletics club. I just stopped attending.


  • #77
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Banbh wrote: »
    I think those who want declarations and annulifications from the Catholic Church are still in its thrall. If I were to leave A+A on Boards, would I have a right to a formal declaration of disenposting?
    When I left the darts club over that disputed triple 20 all I said was **** youse and the secretary said well **** you too. And that was it. A very simple ceremony.
    When you leave, you leave.

    For me it's about making a statement to my friends and family. It's about going the extra mile and formally renouncing superstition. It's about planting a seed in the minds of my young cousins, who attend rural schools where the clergy regularly interact with students. If my actions spark even a little bit of curiosity, skepticism, or critical thinking in the lives of those around me, the world becomes a slightly less superstitious place.


  • #78
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    It does seem like a pleasant little "f*ck you" to the church as well.


  • #79
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    Fair enough. These are good reasons.


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