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Superbowl XLVI

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Comments

  • #1232
    Morrisseeee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    New England Patriots
    tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »
    Sorry Andy I have to disagree. The point of a teams needs is to have the best players on the field that give you the best chance of winning every game and winning the whole show.

    From a neutral's perspective, ye have a very good offense, won 13 games in the reguler season, QB beats Marino's record. So not much needed on the Offense to improve it. Your point above says that teams need their best players, and your defense needs players, ie. they were pretty poor last season.
    There's an old saying: 'Defenses win SuperBowls', well.............QED.
    tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »
    As excellent as the Pats WR corp have been all season the team 100% needs to upgrade its outside WR.

    Not according to a poll on the patriots website, this is taken from their message boards:
    Q: What position should the PAtriots target most in the Draft or Free Agency?

    Ans:
    1 CB : 39.6%
    2 WR : 17%
    3 DE : 15%
    4 S : 15%

    So...............it looks like the majority of fans want a CB, but then in joint 2nd(ish) you have WR/DE/S, ie. not an "absolute need" that has been mentioned/argued above.


  • #1233
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,149 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    Morrisseeee wrote: »
    So...............it looks like the majority of fans want a CB, but then in joint 2nd(ish) you have WR/DE/S, ie. not an "absolute need" that has been mentioned/argued above.

    but it is the second most priority in the poll, and it is a need. I dont think anyone on here has said we dont need an upgrade at CB or defence, but even that poll shows that WR is the second most pressing position we need to address. No one said 'absolute need' or no one said it should be priority above a CB (or at least I dont think they did). You can still sort both positions.

    But it still doesnt mean we dont need a proper WIDE receiver. Ocho was got for that reason, and was a bust. Rumours of Brandon Lloyd were being floated around after the McDaniels move.


  • #1234
    Morrisseeee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    New England Patriots
    The majority of teams 'need' a WR, but the Pats 'need' a CB and a few defensive players 'before' thinking about a WR.


  • #1235
    neilster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 719 ✭✭✭neilster


    matthew8 wrote: »
    Are you fking kidding me? The Pats offense was the third best in the league in a great year for offenses.

    The Jets are a bad defense. Yeah right. And I said the offense could use a deep threat, but the defense comes first.

    That's what I'm saying. Points show how good an offense is and they'd have run away with the whole thing if their defense was decent.

    The Jets were an awful team in 2011 ..thats what i said...read back my post ...i never said a bad defense (it was ranked 5) ...you brought that up ...read back the post ...they were an awful team ...lead by a hesitant 3yrd QB ....not great against the rush and cos they had drifted to the middle tier for 1st conversions and 3rd down along with interceptions they found themselves blitzing all night long ...they are still a very good defense but i expect them to draft and edge rusher at the same time

    But i actually agree that making the wide recievers the only goats on the Pats team misses other needs and negates the Giants win partly as it is sort of saying it was all down to drops but an outside threat is a huge need

    But back to points averages ...Results show where an offence is....results get SuperBowls ....these meaningless stats dont make a hill of beans to Tom Brady this morning

    The reality is that particularly since the 2007 Giants win , the key to winning the SuperBowl isnt scoring 32 points a game (of course its a useful guide to success but only that)...it is getting into the Playoffs by any means possible and then getting hot as a team

    2007 Giants proved it ...New Orleans proved it ...the Packers certainly proved it and then Giants again


  • #1236
    neilster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 719 ✭✭✭neilster


    bruschi wrote: »
    but it is the second most priority in the poll, and it is a need. I dont think anyone on here has said we dont need an upgrade at CB or defence, but even that poll shows that WR is the second most pressing position we need to address. No one said 'absolute need' or no one said it should be priority above a CB (or at least I dont think they did). You can still sort both positions.

    But it still doesnt mean we dont need a proper WIDE receiver. Ocho was got for that reason, and was a bust. Rumours of Brandon Lloyd were being floated around after the McDaniels move.

    Is all Pats fans abandoning Ras I Dowling ...certainly i would like someone like that to augment whats there ....I know people have talked about Safety for him but he was drafted at Corner ...he is a 6 footer ...reminds me of some of Seattles guys who came through this year ...rangy Corner who looks like a safety ...i dont hear him being mentioned ...certainly Safety & Corner both need to be addressed even with Dowling


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  • #1237
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    New England Patriots
    jman0war wrote: »
    The worst pass was at the start of the 4th Qtr, the interception at 14:15
    Ball was under-thrown and resulted in a pick.


    Cant agree with your reasoning here, I believe that pass wasnt perfect, but it was not a bad pass and a fit Gronk gets it 99 times out of 100 imo, the part that makes the pass bad for me is that Brady knows his receiver is limited in mobility and he shouldnt have thrown it to him at all.

    The pass itself was ok though


  • #1238
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,149 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    neilster wrote: »
    Is all Pats fans abandoning Ras I Dowling ...certainly i would like someone like that to augment whats there ....I know people have talked about Safety for him but he was drafted at Corner ...he is a 6 footer ...reminds me of some of Seattles guys who came through this year ...rangy Corner who looks like a safety ...i dont hear him being mentioned ...certainly Safety & Corner both need to be addressed even with Dowling

    without him being on the field, its hard to know how he will go. but your last point says it all, even with him they still need to address the situation. There is no depth at all (Edelman a case in point) on many positions in the defence.


  • #1239
    tallaghtoutlaws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    Morrisseeee wrote: »
    From a neutral's perspective, ye have a very good offense, won 13 games in the reguler season, QB beats Marino's record. So not much needed on the Offense to improve it. Your point above says that teams need their best players, and your defense needs players, ie. they were pretty poor last season.
    There's an old saying: 'Defenses win SuperBowls', well.............QED.



    Not according to a poll on the patriots website, this is taken from their message boards:
    Q: What position should the PAtriots target most in the Draft or Free Agency?

    Ans:
    1 CB : 39.6%
    2 WR : 17%
    3 DE : 15%
    4 S : 15%

    So...............it looks like the majority of fans want a CB, but then in joint 2nd(ish) you have WR/DE/S, ie. not an "absolute need" that has been mentioned/argued above.

    Ah for **** sake read the rest of my posts. Where did I say WR was our number 1 need? I clearly said on many occasions CB was our main need. We have 4 draft picks in the first 2 rounds. Which by any standard is enough to pick up all 4 of our main needs.

    And this reponse is the reason im done with this forum. People not reading all your posts and then nitpicking on one post. This debate has gone on for 4 pages and I have mentioned all for of those positions more than once and clearly said CB was our main need. But hey good to see you completely took me out of context. :rolleyes:


  • #1240
    Morrisseeee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    New England Patriots
    From what I remember of that throw it was definitely underthrown, mainly as a result of the Giants hassling Brady. I think Blackburn even had time to re-adjust his run. I also remember a pass over the middle to Branch (I think) that the no. 21 (Phillips) of the Giants got his finger tips to, so the QB is to blame in that instance, or a superb play from the back in question.

    If you think about the Welker pass/incompletion, why does Welker have to shift awkwardly & then miss the catch, I think it's down to the throw not being on the money, so with those incidents, and Brady's poor form in the 4th Q, you'd have to assume that something went wrong, ie. did Tuck really get to him on that tackle in the 3rd Q ?

    One commentator on ESPN said (controversially) that Brady shouldn't be even talked about when discussing the all time great QB, a little harsh I suppose, but he was comparing him to Montana, 4 SB appearances, 4 wins, no excuses !

    Maybe Manning (Eli) will do a Montana ??!! :eek:


  • #1241
    jman0war
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 429 ✭✭jman0war


    kryogen wrote: »
    Cant agree with your reasoning here, I believe that pass wasnt perfect, but it was not a bad pass and a fit Gronk gets it 99 times out of 100 imo, the part that makes the pass bad for me is that Brady knows his receiver is limited in mobility and he shouldnt have thrown it to him at all.

    The pass itself was ok though
    No way was that an ok pass.
    If he put another 2 or 3 yards on that pass it would have been 7pts.
    Have a look at it on youtube:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOIePsISZkA

    Receiver had to stop and come back to play defense.


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  • #1242
    jman0war
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 429 ✭✭jman0war


    Also the Welker miss was on 2nd & 11.
    A bad miss yes but by no means a back-breaker

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or1nSVUJeq8

    Brady had plenty of time to look at it.
    Welker turned his body to the inside and Brady threw it for a fading run.
    So I dunno who's to blame.

    In my opinion Brady threw a perfect pass there.
    If you look at where the defenders are that ball was thrown into space where a good receiver would have run onto it in stride.


  • #1243
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    New England Patriots
    jman0war wrote: »
    No way was that an ok pass.
    If he put another 2 or 3 yards on that pass it would have been 7pts.
    Have a look at it on youtube:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOIePsISZkA

    Receiver had to stop and come back to play defense.

    Ive seen it, its my opinion bud, you dont have to agree with it!

    Ill give one more word on this, the ball is thrown to exactly where Gronk is, he stutters or slips (or even worse you could say he was shrugged off a bit but i think its just a little stutter) and that takes him back a step and he cant recover in time to get the ball. Fit he does, in.my.opinion.


  • #1244
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    New England Patriots
    The Welker pass was pretty perfect imo, put it into a safe area where your receiver should be making that catch 10 out of 10, Welker turns the wrong way unfortunately


  • #1245
    jman0war
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 429 ✭✭jman0war


    kryogen wrote: »
    Ive seen it, its my opinion bud, you dont have to agree with it!

    So when you say:
    Originally Posted by kryogen viewpost.gif
    Cant agree with your reasoning here, I believe that pass wasnt perfect, but it was not a bad pass and a fit Gronk gets it 99 times out of 100 imo
    Where, in a world where there are no defenders?
    the part that makes the pass bad for me is that Brady knows his receiver is limited in mobility and he shouldnt have thrown it to him at all.
    He was match-fit and on the field.Couldn't ask for a more favourable mis-match, he was being defended by a linebacker.


  • #1246
    Lothaar v2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 228 ✭✭Lothaar v2


    kryogen wrote: »
    Ill give one more word on this, the ball is thrown to exactly where Gronk is...

    That's the problem. Gronk was pretty much standing there, waiting for the ball while the LB ran about 10 yards to get in position for the pick. It was massively underthrown.

    NE already have a great receiving corps. Obviously there's room for improvement, as is the case with every unit on every team in the NFL. It just seems bizarre to me that, after narrowly missing out on winning the Bowl, Pats fans are highlighting a perceived weakness at WR. Most teams in the league would love to have the weapons the Pats have.

    It kinda reminds me of Ireland in the rugby world cup. We had the ultimate back row... there was even a load of great Chuck Norris jokes about Sean O'Brien. When Wales beat us, suddenly there were calls for 'a true 7' etc. In the space of 80 mins, our backrow went from untouchable to fundamentally flawed. The same world-beating players were suddenly exposed as missing something. It's a total kneejerk reaction. Just like the Pats, there are many reasons for losing that key game, but (IMO) far too much focus is being put on one position. I think, in both cases, if different tactics had been employed, the lack of a certain type of player would have been negated. The Pats have serious strengths and they didn't get enough out of them (or the Giants did just enough to shut them down). And that's football.

    I also suspect that the poll on the Pats' website has WR as the second most voted position because of the amount of drops in the Bowl. That's just an unfortunately-timed 'bad day at the office'. The same receivers caught those passes all year long. If the Pats won, the poll would be very different.

    So, I don't disagree that the Pats would benefit from a deep threat WR. I just don't think it should even be a discussion point.


  • #1247
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    I can only imagine the re-action I(or anyone else) would have gotten on Sunday evening at 6pm if they came on and posted that a WR was one of NE's biggest needs.


  • #1248
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,149 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    I can only imagine the re-action I(or anyone else) would have gotten on Sunday evening at 6pm if they came on and posted that a WR was one of NE's biggest needs.

    I think it would have been the same as if you said they need a CB or safety. Ochocinco was brought in as the 'Moss' replacement, and has been a bust. Its been a flaw (if the only one despite a slightly better than average running offence) of the offence that if they get covered over the middle on short routes, then there is little other options.

    Gronk is a beast, and Welker is IMO the best slot receiver. Hernandez is a viable all round TE who can line up wide, and Branch is reliable, but not what he was in 04. But they dont have anyone else on the sidelines who can take a CB out of the equation, or make a safety think twice about staying back. Tiquain Underwood was the deep option. Taylor Price was that at the start of the year. The Patriots have probably the best receivers in the league through the middle. They have arguably the worst outside the numbers.

    Maybe other Patriots fans will disagree with me, but being honest, it was a flaw in the offence. Hard to say that with the numbers Brady put up I suppose, but when you have 2 TE's who set season records, and a slot receiver doing much the same. Maybe its a case of wanting perfection or being greedy, but the superbowl and other games we lost showed up that weakness on the offence.


  • #1249
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,149 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    Morrisseeee wrote: »
    Q: What position should the PAtriots target most in the Draft or Free Agency?

    Ans:
    1 CB : 39.6%
    2 WR : 17%
    3 DE : 15%
    4 S : 15%.

    just on that, a poll on ESPN boston currently has it at:
    shutdown CB 39%
    deep threat WR 26%
    pass rusher 18%
    stud safety 14%
    other 2%

    Just reading there too that the Patriots only play 4 teams who made the playoffs this year (Texans, Broncos, Niners, Ravens), and only the Ravens on the road of those 4. The london game gives them a bye at exactyl the mid way point of the season too.

    They have $20m cap space to work with. Welker is the obvious free agent that needs to be resigned. A few others too, but Welker is key.

    4 picks in the first 2 rounds. I always hate BB stockpiling picks. We stockpile and it never comes to benefit the year after. Even use the 2 first round picks to move up or something, but we need a good draft. Too many times the late end draft picks have been crap.

    Being honest, I didnt think we would win the superbowl at the start of the year. but having been in a good position to win it, its disappointing not to. But we are at least in a good position, and should easily make the playoffs again next year. Improve the defence, and tweak the offence, and give it another good rattle next year.


  • #1250
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    bruschi wrote: »
    I think it would have been the same as if you said they need a CB or safety. Ochocinco was brought in as the 'Moss' replacement, and has been a bust. Its been a flaw (if the only one despite a slightly better than average running offence) of the offence that if they get covered over the middle on short routes, then there is little other options.

    Gronk is a beast, and Welker is IMO the best slot receiver. Hernandez is a viable all round TE who can line up wide, and Branch is reliable, but not what he was in 04. But they dont have anyone else on the sidelines who can take a CB out of the equation, or make a safety think twice about staying back. Tiquain Underwood was the deep option. Taylor Price was that at the start of the year. The Patriots have probably the best receivers in the league through the middle. They have arguably the worst outside the numbers.

    Maybe other Patriots fans will disagree with me, but being honest, it was a flaw in the offence. Hard to say that with the numbers Brady put up I suppose, but when you have 2 TE's who set season records, and a slot receiver doing much the same. Maybe its a case of wanting perfection or being greedy, but the superbowl and other games we lost showed up that weakness on the offence.


    I don't think suggesting the 2nd worst pass defense in the NFL needs CB or safety help is that outrageous. I also remember Pats fans saying they didn't need Underwood for the super bowl and DL help was more important, now it seems WR are what's needed.


  • #1251
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,149 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    I don't think suggesting the 2nd worst pass defense in the NFL needs CB or safety help is that outrageous. I also remember Pats fans saying they didn't need Underwood for the super bowl and DL help was more important, now it seems WR are what's needed.

    again, the main item for need is a CB. I think that has been said numerous times. it has been said all season too. no one (again, correct me if I am worng) is saying that a WR is our main and only need. but it is a need. People here still think that by saying we need a WR that we are ignoring the CB issue. That is not the case at all, and to be honest, if it keeps on going back to that argument then I give up.

    But it would be foolish to think the Pats dont need an upgrade for a WR who plays outside the numbers. thats all I am saying anyway, I wont speak for anyone else, but its hardly ridiculous to say we dont need a WR when our contribution to that this year was 70 receptions (between 4 players) and 1054 yards. the other 3 players (Gronk Hernandez and Welker) all nearly beat those stats on their own (only hernandez with 910 yards doesnt).

    Is there any other team where their tight ends and slot receiver beat every other wide receiver combined on their roster? Maybe people think this is the way forward and you dont need a deep threat WR. I am not one of those. I still think you need to be able to spread the defence and not clutter it up over the middle.

    Saying Underwood, a player with 3 receptions all season, wouldnt be needed for the superbowl is hardly outlandish either.


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  • #1252
    adrian522
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,611 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    Well What ever about the Patriots biggest needs , I think we safely put to bed the idea that was being touted here as the play offs began that you don't need a defense any more as long as you have a big offense "if you know you always score 35+ points who cares about the defense"

    I think the play offs have shown that defense is still crucially important and I also think a decent running game, while maybe not essential is still of huge value in the playoffs.

    Well done to the Giants, they had their luck along the way but they stepped up when it mattered.


  • #1253
    Sean The Lad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14 ✭Sean The Lad


    bruschi wrote: »

    Just reading there too that the Patriots only play 4 teams who made the playoffs this year (Texans, Broncos, Niners, Ravens), and only the Ravens on the road of those 4.

    giants? :L:L:L


  • #1254
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,149 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    Sean The Lad wrote: »
    giants? :L:L:L

    :confused: Patriots dont play the Giants next season.


  • #1255
    adrian522
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 16,611 Mod ✭✭✭✭adrian522


    The niners have a tough schedule next year including AFC East, NFC North , Saints and Giants.

    I think they have road games in NE,Green Bay,New Orleans and NY Jets.


  • #1256
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    New England Patriots
    jman0war wrote: »
    So when you say:

    Where, in a world where there are no defenders?

    He was match-fit and on the field.Couldn't ask for a more favourable mis-match, he was being defended by a linebacker.



    Well thats me out of this debate with you cause you didnt even watch the game obviously


  • #1257
    Sean The Lad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14 ✭Sean The Lad


    bruschi wrote: »
    :confused: Patriots dont play the Giants next season.
    arit i thot u ment season gone my bad :P


  • #1258
    Paully D
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,710 ✭✭✭✭Paully D


    I've seen a few mentions of Ochocinco in this thread now, I'm just wondering why things didn't work out for him at New England?

    His credentials are there for all to see (6 X Pro Bowl, 3 X All-Pro, 1 X receiving yards leader, 766 receptions for over 11,000 yards and 68 receiving TD's), he has a very good record.

    You would think having gone to New England that he'd have nothing but success with a fantastic QB throwing to him, so what went wrong?

    Could he just not handle a new organisation after 10 years at Cincinnati, did he struggle to adapt? Was it too hard for him to learn a completely new system? No trust from his QB? Is he just too old?

    I know players struggle to adapt to change sometimes, but it's strange (IMO anyway) to see how someone with that started the best part of 16 games for 10 years and was hitting nearly 1,500 receiving yards a year, has gone from that to barely even getting a catch in games these days.

    What do you think?


  • #1259
    Stev_o
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Stev_o


    New England Patriots
    Didn't fit the gameplan? Brady wanted to throw to his TE's and Welker out of the slot all day every day. How many vertical shots did they take all year long involving a WR stretching the field? That and 85 never seemed to be "synced" with the playbook.


  • #1260
    GoldFour4
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,208 Mod ✭✭✭✭GoldFour4


    New England Patriots
    Paully D wrote: »
    I've seen a few mentions of Ochocinco in this thread now, I'm just wondering why things didn't work out for him at New England?

    His credentials are there for all to see (6 X Pro Bowl, 3 X All-Pro, 1 X receiving yards leader, 766 receptions for over 11,000 yards and 68 receiving TD's), he has a very good record.

    You would think having gone to New England that he'd have nothing but success with a fantastic QB throwing to him, so what went wrong?

    Could he just not handle a new organisation after 10 years at Cincinnati, did he struggle to adapt? Was it too hard for him to learn a completely new system? No trust from his QB? Is he just too old?

    I know players struggle to adapt to change sometimes, but it's strange (IMO anyway) to see how someone with that started the best part of 16 games for 10 years and was hitting nearly 1,500 receiving yards a year, has gone from that to barely even getting a catch in games these days.

    What do you think?

    Look at those stats and theres your answer. You dont just get those stats in a few years. Hes been around for awhile now. His speed is deteriorating. Hes 34 now, not a spring chicken. I think hes an obvious cut this offseason and will more then likely find it hard to find a roster place next year.


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  • #1261
    matthew8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭matthew8


    New England Patriots
    I echo the sentiments of everyone saying that the Pats could use a WR but defense is the clear priority. It's like with the Ravens, we could use another edge rusher to replace the aging Johnson or a MLB to replace Lewis whenever he stops, but the defense is elite, and the focus has to be on offense, unless we find a very good talent in the draft on defense.


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