If you drink alcohol, yet you are against other drugs...

SteelyDanJalapeno · 08-02-2012 03:03AM

Good to see ignorance is still alive and well

hup

Jagle · 08-02-2012 03:03AM

mikom wrote: »

*Brain explodes*

typo, go back and reread i edited

wonton · 08-02-2012 03:06AM

jimpump wrote: »

Alcohol and tobacco users are the biggest cost to the health service in most countries yet these legal drugs are tolerated more than the illegal drugs out there

i just dont get it

considering how much the government gets theres days off each box of smokes I don't think that's a fair argument.

jimpump · 08-02-2012 03:06AM

Jagle wrote: »

really this argument? you cant compare cannabis to alcohol, you can compare alcohol to heroin tho, as its abuse you cant deny over the past generations of our people, and worldwide alcohol and tobacco kills more people then hitler ever did.

but hey dont wanna offend your ignorant opinion, id say you would be surprised how many people you interact with daily smoke weed

surprised? not at all

smoke weed, take tablets,smoke brown, drink....sure thats 90% of this population

im not surprised at all man

Jagle · 08-02-2012 03:09AM

jimpump wrote: »

surprised? not at all

smoke weed, take tablets,smoke brown, drink....sure thats 90% of this population

im not surprised at all man

so why are we hidding it letting gangs make millions off it and ruining our society, look at portugal and tell me we are right? look at america, even the medical thing is a huge tax take. Harbor Side Dispensary in cali paid 21 million in taxes last year and is a non profit. Watch weed wars on discovery channel and tell me we are right.

Doc · 08-02-2012 03:10AM

TiltedBrain wrote: »

:rolleyes:
http://alcoholireland.ie/alcohol-facts/

just pulled the very 1st stat I saw there from the pile, 10% liver cancer in males, 3.33% in Females.

Cannabis,

here's a few state funded studies which resulted in no increase in cancer of the patients over a lengthy period

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1360-0443.2002.00003.x/full

The stats you refer to do not reflect the people that I specificaly pointed out to you it reflects people who drink over the recomended daly alowance of alcohol.

For every statefunded studie that shows no like to increases in cancer in cannabis users I could show you one that says it dose. Not only that but most reserch due to the ilegality of cannabis use are inconclusive in there findings. Cancer would not be my major issue with cannabis use anyway it would be the mental healt issues that I believe it can cause. I really dont want to get into a discussion regarding.

Doc · 08-02-2012 03:12AM

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

not all drug users binge, some do them in moderation, just like a glass of wine every evening

never said they did

jimpump · 08-02-2012 03:13AM

Jagle wrote: »

so why are we hidding it letting gangs make millions off it and ruining our society, look at portugal and tell me we are right? look at america, even the medical thing is a huge tax take. Harbor Side Dispensary in cali paid 21 million in taxes last year and is a non profit. Watch weed wars on discovery channel and tell me we are right.

are you mistaking me with someone else?

im actually in favour of legalising all drugs...read my OP

mikom · 08-02-2012 03:13AM

Doc wrote: »

Cancer would not be my major issue with cannabis use anyway it would be the mental healt issues that I believe it can cause. I really dont want to get into a discussion regarding.

Something for your mind there....

Cannabis and mental illness – the Keele Study

Something we’ve been waiting for ages for has finally arrived; the government has (albeit very quietly) published the study from Keele University entitled “Assessing the impact of cannabis use on trends in diagnosed schizophrenia in the United Kingdom from 1996 to 2005″ (edit 2011 – read the full paper here)
Some 16 months back the Guardian ran an item about the proposed (as it was then) reclassification of cannabis to class B. Under the heading “Brown plans tougher line on cannabis against advice of own drug experts” the paper reported research carried out by a team from Keele University:
Their confidential paper found that between 1996 and 2005 there had been significant reductions in the incidence and prevalence of schizophrenia. From 2000 onwards there were also significant reductions in the prevalence of psychoses.
The authors say this data is “not consistent with the hypothesis that increasing cannabis use in earlier decades is associated with increasing schizophrenia or psychoses from the mid-1990s onwards.”

“[T]he expected rise in diagnoses of schizophrenia and psychoses did not occur over a 10 year period. This study does not therefore support the specific causal link between cannabis use and incidence of psychotic disorders. … This concurs with other reports indicating that increases in population cannabis use have not been followed by increases in psychotic incidence.”

http://ukcia.org/wordpress/?p=76

The Lancet published a meta-analysis that set the world spinning, even fooling Australias ABC Catalyst programme.
Of 6.2 million cannabis smokers, 800 reported symptoms of psychosis. Or 0.00125% of cannabis smokers suffered a psychotic episode.No, we do not know what caused the episode – only that they also smoked cannabis.
Also of the 800 out of 6.2 million we can see that 99.99875% of cannabis smokers do not experience a psychotic episode.
Please remember 200% changes are considered lower level in the significance stakes. Lancet report a 40% increase. Also please remember alcohol causes an 800% increase in the risk of schizophrenia.

Naomi00 · 08-02-2012 03:16AM

Jagle wrote: »

so why are we hidding it letting gangs make millions off it and ruining our society, look at portugal and tell me we are right? look at america, even the medical thing is a huge tax take. Harbor Side Dispensary in cali paid 21 million in taxes last year and is a non profit. Watch weed wars on discovery channel and tell me we are right.

Cannabis triggers mental health problems in a lot of people, not everyone of course, but that's the main problem with it. Mental health is a lot more important than taxes or money, and there are a lot more ways of making money.

Not wanting to get into a big discussion as that is off topic but I thought it should be pointed out.

mikom · 08-02-2012 03:21AM

Naomi00 wrote: »

Cannabis triggers mental health problems in a lot of people, not everyone of course, but that's the main problem with it.

According to the Lancet 0.00125% of cannabis smokers suffered a psychotic episode.
I'll take those odds.

jimpump · 08-02-2012 03:21AM

Naomi00 wrote: »

Cannabis triggers mental health problems in a lot of people, not everyone of course, but that's the main problem with it. Mental health is a lot more important than taxes or money, and there are a lot more ways of making money.

Not wanting to get into a big discussion as that is off topic but I thought it should be pointed out.

this is the reason why heroin is safer than cannabis

Naomi00 · 08-02-2012 03:28AM

mikom wrote: »

According to the Lancet 0.00125% of cannabis smokers suffered a psychotic episode.
I'll take those odds.

No, as in depression etc.

And you're not going to find stats on it because it's not exactly something people would report. It can't be denied, I just thought it was an important thing to point out.

Doc · 08-02-2012 03:31AM

mikom wrote: »

Something for your mind there....

Mikom I have based my judgment on a lot of reading and research into the subject. I have not solely looked at things trying to prove the point of view that cannabis was bad. I wanted to find out if it had the effects that I thought it might have. I have spoken to doctors and read a lot. I am perfectly happy to admit that there is contrasting opinions and research backing both points of view but after seriously looking into it I have formed my own opinion. I am also happy to admit that people can often use it without many if any negative outcomes. I don’t begrudge anyone their own opinions on the subject and would never judge anyone for using it themselves as it’s their life but I would not encourage anyone to use it and I would not want it to be legal because of my experience and research. I am always happy to read through any new information on the subject and I have not closed my mind to the subject at all.

Sindri · 08-02-2012 03:33AM

jimpump wrote: »

Are you a huge hypocrite

In my opinion, yes!

anyone that drinks alcohol or smokes tobacco yet are against cannabis,cocaine,heroin users are the biggest hypocrites there is

Alcohol and tobacco users are the biggest cost to the health service in most countries yet these legal drugs are tolerated more than the illegal drugs out there

Alri, alri,

I'll sort this Oi will.

So the question is whether people who drink alcohol or smoke or chew tobacco are hypocrites if they are against the use?

(or legalisation?) of other recreational drugs.

And what do you do to validate this argument but...

jimpump wrote: »

Alcohol and tobacco users are the biggest cost to the health service in most countries yet these legal drugs are tolerated more than the illegal drugs out there

This is true yes. An unbelievable proportion of money giving to treat substance abuse is used to treat tobacco and alcohol related diseases.

Why does this make those people hypocrites though?

jimpump wrote: »

i just dont get it

Neither do I.

yermanoffthetv · 08-02-2012 03:33AM

Temptamperu wrote: »

But herion is just so deliciously moreish. :pac:

I heard it can give you a bit of a gippy tummy.

mikom · 08-02-2012 03:37AM

Doc wrote: »

Mikom I have based my judgment on a lot of reading and research into the subject. I have not solely looked at things trying to prove the point of view that cannabis was bad. I wanted to find out if it had the effects that I thought it might have. I have spoken to doctors and read a lot. I am perfectly happy to admit that there is contrasting opinions and research backing both points of view but after seriously looking into it I have formed my own opinion. I am also happy to admit that people can often use it without many if any negative outcomes. I don’t begrudge anyone their own opinions on the subject and would never judge anyone for using it themselves as it’s their life but I would not encourage anyone to use it and I would not want it to be legal because of my experience and research. I am always happy to read through any new information on the subject and I have not closed my mind to the subject at all.

I am also happy to read through any new information on the subject.
Could you provide me with any or all links to your research reading?

Doc · 08-02-2012 03:57AM

mikom wrote: »

I am also happy to read through any new information on the subject.
Could you provide me with any or all links to your research reading?

Here are some research and reading refrences I have on the computer at the moment not sure how many are online or not but at least the abstract should be up for a lot of them. Reserch into the subject is difficult because of the illigality cannabis.

Self reported cannabis use as a risk factor for schizophrenia in Swedish conscripts of 1969: historical cohort study (2002) Zammit S, Allebeck P, Andreasson S, Lundberg I, Lewis G. British Medical Journal 2002; 325: 1199-1201.

Cannabis use and psychosis: A longitudinal population-based study (2002) Van Os J, Bak M, Hanssen M, Bijl RV, de Graaf R, Verdoux H. American Journal of Epidemiology; 156: 319-327.

Cannabis use in adolescence and risk for adult psychosis: longitudinal prospective study (2002) Arseneault L, Cannon M, Poulton R, Murray R, Caspi A, Moffit TE. British Medical Journal; 325: 1212-1213.

Cannabis use and mental health in young people: cohort study (2002) Patton GC, Coffey C, Carlin JB, Degenhardt L, Lynskey M, Hall W. British Medical Journal; 325: 1195-1198.

A longitudinal study of cannabis use and mental health from adolescence to early adulthood (2000) McGee R, Williams S, Poulton R, Moffitt T. Addiction; 95: 491-503

Mental health of teenagers who use cannabis (2002) Rey JM et al. British Journal of Psychiatry, 180, 216-221.

Prospective cohort study of cannabis use, predisposition for psychosis and psychotic symptoms in young people. Henquet C et al British Medical Journal, 330, 11-14.

Tests of causal linkages between cannabis use and psychotic symptoms (2005) Fergusson DM, Horwood LJ and Ridder EM Addiction, 100 (3).

Cannabis-induced psychosis and subsequent schizophrenia-spectrum disorders: follow-up study of 535 incident cases (2005) Arendt M et al British Journal of Psychiatry, 187: 510 - 515.

mikom · 08-02-2012 04:28AM

Thanks for that Doc.
These are solid with my views that youngsters (whose brain is not fully developed) should not smoke cannabis.
It's a view I would hold for cigarettes and alcohol as well.

For adults though?

Question.
Even though cannabis use rates have risen over the last 40 years, where is the matching increase in psychosis rates?

It is also worth noting that these "psychotic symptoms" measured in a lot of the published cannabis reports are not actual diagnosed illnesses.
"Psychotic symptoms" identified included "having ideas or beliefs that others do not share" and "feeling that other people cannot be trusted" .
The social and legal stigmatisation of cannabis would make anyone think that way.

Paddy Cow · 08-02-2012 04:34AM

jimpump wrote: »

Are you a huge hypocrite

In my opinion, yes!

anyone that drinks alcohol or smokes tobacco yet are against cannabis,cocaine,heroin users are the biggest hypocrites there is

Alcohol and tobacco users are the biggest cost to the health service in most countries yet these legal drugs are tolerated more than the illegal drugs out there

i just dont get it

Only because they are legal, socially acceptable and readily available. Could you image the damage caused if cocaine and heroin were as available as alcohol and tobacco :eek: The only one that would be feasible to legalise is cannabis.

Doc · 08-02-2012 04:47AM

mikom wrote: »

Thanks for that Doc.
These are solid with my views that youngsters (whose brain is not fully developed) should not smoke cannabis.
It's a view I would hold for cigarettes and alcohol as well.

For adults though?

Question.
Even though cannabis use rates have risen over the last 40 years, where is the matching increase in psychosis rates?

Mikom as I said I had a perticular intrest in reserching the subject in relation to pericular questions I had. The information I have given is just some of the stuff I have read up on in relation to the questions I had, but I am by no means an expert on psychosis rates and cannabis. There may well be evedence to match increases in psychosis rates I dont know.

Jev/N · 08-02-2012 04:51AM

Naomi00 wrote: »

Yeah I'm sure the junkies at the Luas stations in Dublin will totally agree with you..

Role model material and all that.

Not to mention the homeless alcoholics

Fromthetrees · 08-02-2012 04:52AM

jimpump wrote: »

yet heroin/opiates/diamorphine keep plenty of people who have pain beyond belief live a normal life

get your facts straight

I don't have a problem with people who are terminally ill or in severe pain from using drugs to stop physical pain. I mean morphine is legal in this country in this context.

My point is that heroin shouldn't be legal and widely available to anyone who wants it.

Big big big difference between the first point and the second, if you can't see the difference between these two things than you need to get your facts straight I'm afraid.

Fromthetrees · 08-02-2012 04:54AM

TiltedBrain wrote: »

I can guarantee booze is far more dangerous then Cannabis

I can guarantee that is not an absolute rule. From my experience cannabis fucks your brain up much more than booze.

Jev/N · 08-02-2012 04:54AM

Naomi00 wrote: »

No, as in depression etc.

And you're not going to find stats on it because it's not exactly something people would report. It can't be denied, I just thought it was an important thing to point out.

Seeing as you're bringing this back to depression rather than psychosis, alcohol also causes similar problems when overused/abused - how is that different?

bodhrandude · 08-02-2012 05:16AM

Well I partake in the odd pint of Guinness myself, but I also like a doob. Imagine if booze was made illegal, I would be going up to street dealers and saying "any chance of a few tins of that black stuff, the Guinness like." instead of scoring the squiggy black stuff heh heh.

seanybiker · 08-02-2012 05:25AM

jimpump wrote: »

Are you a huge hypocrite

In my opinion, yes!

anyone that drinks alcohol or smokes tobacco yet are against cannabis,cocaine,heroin users are the biggest hypocrites there is

Alcohol and tobacco users are the biggest cost to the health service in most countries yet these legal drugs are tolerated more than the illegal drugs out there

i just dont get it

Ignoring the fact this thread comes up every two minutes.

In my experience on a motorbike. I didn't take many drugs but one or two of the ones I took, I took a fair amount.
Cigarettes = never crashed a bike or rode the bike in a bad way cos of them.
Weed/hash= I got home and slept like a baby.
Cocaine= I got home and done the best of wheelies and had a little crash, more of a , this corner is comfortable, jaysus I'm on the ground but I'm well comfortable so ill have a nap.
Bangers /e/etc = I'm home now but why am I watching rossi, I can do that.
Heroine= oh you're doing that, **** you then buddy.

mickrock · 08-02-2012 05:45AM

I like the odd bit of heroin but I can take it or leave it.

It's nice with a meal or while watching the football.

I sometimes tend to go a bit overboard at the weekends, but who doesn't?!

Chuck Stone · 08-02-2012 05:58AM

Doc wrote: »

I think you may be mixing up use and abuse. Just because I have a glass of wine at dinner but am against cannabis,cocaine,heroin use I am the biggest hypocrites there is? Grow up.

So much wrong with this paragraph it's ridiculous.

What you're essentially saying is:

'I use a drug sensibly. I am still against the use of other drugs sensibly.

'How the hell does that make me a hypocrite'?

That absolutely qualifies you as a hypocrite. Well done for completely contradicting yourself and confirming that you are indeed a hypocrite, while claiming not to be, in the space of two sentences.

Doc · 08-02-2012 06:31AM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Originally Posted by Doc
I think you may be mixing up use and abuse. Just because I have a glass of wine at dinner but am against cannabis,cocaine,heroin use I am the biggest hypocrites there is? Grow up.”

So much wrong with this paragraph it's ridiculous.

What you're essentially saying is:

Quote:
'I use a drug sensibly. I am still against the use of other drugs sensibly.

'How the hell does that make me a hypocrite'?

That absolutely qualifies you as a hypocrite. Well done for completely contradicting yourself and confirming that you are indeed a hypocrite, while claiming not to be, in the space of two sentences.

Basically you are just wrong.

What you have done here is wrongly paraphrase and misinterpret what I have said to justify your position. To clarify what I said was responding to the OP who said

...anyone that drinks alcohol or smokes tobacco yet are against cannabis,cocaine,heroin users are the biggest hypocrites there is

If I drink in a way that is not harmful to my body and am against use of the illegal drugs cannabis, cocaine and heroin all of which I consider dangerous to use over time unlike the sensible consumption of alcohol then I am not being a hypocrite.

If all people who drank abused alcohol in a way that was dangerous to their health and still thought that that it was okay to do so, but condemned people who used other dangerous drugs then the OP and you would have a point. This is not what he said and why I made the distinction between the consumption of the recommended safe level of alcohol and the abuse of alcohol and why I say that his argument and yours are invalid. It dose not make me a hypocrite in any way.

If you drink alcohol, yet you are against other drugs...

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