Paris to allow cyclists to run red lights in bid to cut accidents.

Run_to_da_hills · 07-02-2012 09:50PM #1

Cyclists will be allowed to turn right or go straight ahead, even when a traffic light is on red. But they will have to give way to pedestrians, and traffic coming from the left. They will be held responsible if there is an accident.

Would this work in Ireland?

There are plenty of cyclists over here that would do this anyway.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2097882/Its-make-motorists-rouge-Paris-allow-cyclists-run-red-lights-bid-cut-accidents.html

fat bloke · 07-02-2012 09:59PM

Yes it would work.

I cross sensibly and safely (to my mind) all the time both as a pedestrian and a cyclist using my deep rooted homo sapient sense of self-preservation. Ironically, it's when I'm foot down at a deserted junction red light that I feel my most Neanderthal(ic?). Man has always yearned to progress. Allez les bleus.

Tenzor07 · 07-02-2012 10:12PM

It would work, but I doubt theres any political will in local councils etc to implement it... Sure don't they provide broken up "bicycle lanes" for us, thats enough! :rolleyes:

seve65 · 07-02-2012 10:13PM

similarly, www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/traffic.html

seve65 · 07-02-2012 10:15PM

seve65 wrote: »

similarly, www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.12/traffic.html

alternatively, how about a signal guru for garmin:
www.smartplanet.com/blog/transportation/never-stop-at-a-red-light-again/858

Beasty · 07-02-2012 10:28PM

Couple of points

Are there really that many accidents involving cyclists on Irish roads? Would such a change create more of a "them and us" culture between motorists and cyclists?

Compliance with red lights by cyclists in this country appears poor enough already. Would such a change encourage more cyclists to illegally break red lights in other circumstances, on the basis that it then becomes an even more commonplace activity.

I guess my real question boils down to what would cyclists hope to gain - increased safety (in which case fine) or simply more convenience (which would not justify a change in my view)

Mr. Presentable · 07-02-2012 10:30PM

Beasty wrote: »

I guess my real question boils down to what would cyclists hope to gain -

Justification of what they already do?

BostonB · 07-02-2012 11:13PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

..Would this work in Ireland?...

That assumes cyclists don't already do that anyway.

nomdeboardie · 07-02-2012 11:25PM

Daily Mail wrote:

Paris has a Velib bike hire scheme which means thousands of amateur cyclists regularly fill the street.

Thank God that only professional cyclists ride personal steeds over here :pac:

Chips Lovell · 07-02-2012 11:44PM

Agree with Beasty on this. Not sure what there is to gain from it other than antagonising other road users further.

BostonB · 07-02-2012 11:56PM

Considering half the battle is changing the mindset of drivers, its not going help that PR battle. Which I think was partly Beasty's point earlier.

galwaycyclist · 08-02-2012 12:13AM

Yep +1 on this. Something similar has been in place for years in the Netherlands allowing cyclists a free right turn on red. Cyclist.ie have been looking for a similar provision for Irish cyclists turning left.

Like two-way cycling on one way.streets- the fact that this isnt being provided here is a sign of official antagonism towards cyclists that we should be highlighting rather than something we should keep quiet about for the sake of peace.

Mycroft H · 08-02-2012 12:29AM

It would only make matters worse IMO. I can imagine too many people being misinformed of the law should something similar pass. Too many ignorant people

happyman81 · 08-02-2012 12:31AM

I don't see what difference it would make here, given that cyclists are colour blind... or at least they seem to be.

fat bloke · 08-02-2012 12:44AM

What makes you think that? -All the pink??

clod71 · 08-02-2012 01:01AM

common sense always works

happyman81 · 08-02-2012 10:28AM

I know this will go down like a fart in an elevator in here, but, I think that adding licence plates to bikes (or some ID system for bikes) would mean a lot of cyclists wising up when it comes to breaking lights, cycling on footpaths and cycling the wrong way down one way streets, etc. As it stands, cyclists are virtually free from prosecution when it comes to traffic laws because they can't be identified easily.

Of course, the cost is the issue.

Lumen · 08-02-2012 10:36AM

happyman81 wrote: »

I know this will go down like a fart in an elevator in here, but, I think that adding licence plates to bikes (or some ID system for bikes) would mean a lot of cyclists wising up when it comes to breaking lights, cycling on footpaths and cycling the wrong way down one way streets, etc. As it stands, cyclists are virtually free from prosecution when it comes to traffic laws because they can't be identified easily.

Of course, the cost is the issue.

As has been discussed previously a number of times, it's a complete non-starter from a practical perspective and would cause an increase in premature deaths.

Ray Palmer · 08-02-2012 10:54AM

If it works out with out any increase in accidents then the answer is simple let it go forward. It is quite obvious that other road users don't see their own failures which are known to casue accidents and fatalities.
If cyclists going through red lights in this manner doesn't casue any issues then it comes down to what I have always though it about obeying the rule not a safety concern.
PR concerns are nonsense as most drivers think every cyclist breaks every light. You have the likes of George Hook saying that he has never seen a cyclist stop at a red light. National radio with a guy obviously exagerating.

It makes common sense that this won't make much increase in accidents as it is so common place already. Suggesting people will then break every light is a bit silly as it suggests people are that stupid when we know the people who break mayor junctions are already doing it and I don't think anybody is joining them.

Tenzor07 · 08-02-2012 10:55AM

Paris city centre is an awful place to cycle, so not surprised they have brought in this new rule...the French tend to do what they like anyways

As for bringing up Holland as an example of how things should be done...well...thats a non starter.. Its like comparing Dr.Quirky's on O'Connell street to Las Vegas!

manwithaplan · 08-02-2012 11:14AM

It's not clear if they propose to allow cyclists go straight ahead at a red light at all junctions in the 30kph zone. I can see the sense of allowing cyclists go through a pedestrian light on a straight road (essentially treating it as a zebra crossing) or to go straight ahead on red at a T junction, giving way to traffic coming from the left (right in our case). I can also see the sense of allowing a cyclist go straight ahead at a junction between two one-way streets, again giving way to peds and traffic coming from the left. Allowing cyclists go straight ahead at junctions with traffic coming from both directions seems likely to cause antagonism at best and be dangerous at worst.

happyman81 · 08-02-2012 11:16AM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

If it works out with out any increase in accidents then the answer is simple let it go forward. It is quite obvious that other road users don't see their own failures which are known to casue accidents and fatalities.
If cyclists going through red lights in this manner doesn't casue any issues then it comes down to what I have always though it about obeying the rule not a safety concern.
PR concerns are nonsense as most drivers think every cyclist breaks every light. You have the likes of George Hook saying that he has never seen a cyclist stop at a red light. National radio with a guy obviously exagerating.

It makes common sense that this won't make much increase in accidents as it is so common place already. Suggesting people will then break every light is a bit silly as it suggests people are that stupid when we know the people who break mayor junctions are already doing it and I don't think anybody is joining them.

I dunno, I am a pedestrian in Dublin and based on my experience, I would say most cyclists don't stop at red lights, I could name a few junctions which are notorious for psychopathic cyclists (or Psycholists, as I call them). Some do stop, but most don't. Hence when I cross at the green man, I look out for cyclists more than motorists.

seamus · 08-02-2012 11:24AM

I'm not entirely sure on whether this would aggravate the us -v- them divide.

Are drivers' frustrations borne out of the fact that cyclists are making better progress, or that they're breaking the law and not being punished? I suspect it's the latter.

After all, you don't hear widespread condemnation of pedestrians who cross the road at random points (when there's not ped crossing), but people do complain about pedestrians crossing when the little man is red. They're functionally the exact same action, but one is breaking the law and the other is not.

Likewise the other big complaints;
- Cyclists not riding in the cycle lane
- Cyclists riding two abreast

These aggravate motorists not because they're being held up, but because they believe that they're not legal. Most motorists believe that cyclists are required to ride single file.
So it's about entitlements IMO - people doing things that they're not allowed to do. If it's specifically made legal that a cyclist may break a red light, then motorists may display less frustration and annoyance because they know that cyclists are entitled to break the light, so there's nothing to get annoyed about.

Of course, it won't do anything to quell the notion that cyclists are headless hippies with a death wish as it will only serve to increase the amount of incidents between vehicles and bikes. Cyclists who would otherwise not break a light may now be inclined to give it a shot and make a bad error.

ciotog · 08-02-2012 11:49AM

happyman81 wrote: »

I know this will go down like a fart in an elevator in here, but, I think that adding licence plates to bikes (or some ID system for bikes) would mean a lot of cyclists wising up when it comes to breaking lights, cycling on footpaths and cycling the wrong way down one way streets, etc. As it stands, cyclists are virtually free from prosecution when it comes to traffic laws because they can't be identified easily.

Of course, the cost is the issue.

Cyclists are virtually free from prosecution because of a lack of enforcement not a lack of identification. I've watched Gardai stand by while cyclists cycled without lights at night, ran red light and cycled on the pavement. They witnessed it so no issue of identification but chose to do nothing. I've reported motorists, using their licence plates to identify them, for dangerous driving and no prosecution (or indeed contact with me) has taken place. So licence plates aren't the fabulous panacea that people seem to think they are.

check_six · 08-02-2012 11:49AM

seamus wrote: »

Of course, it won't do anything to quell the notion that cyclists are headless hippies with a death wish as it will only serve to increase the amount of incidents between vehicles and bikes. Cyclists who would otherwise not break a light may now be inclined to give it a shot and make a bad error.

I don't think it would necessarily increase incidents.
Put it like this, in your opinion, right now, what kind of cyclists break red lights? Answer: Bad Cyclists (boo hiss!)
What kind of cyclists obeys the rules and stops at all the red lights? Answer: Good Cyclists (hurrah!)

If the cyclists who are able to obey the regulations and are sensible are now decriminalised if they see that it is possible to sneak through a red light, I can't see any problem. The people who are already wobbling out into the middle of junctions without looking aren't causing an accident apocalypse now, so I can't see how the better cyclists will cause this in the future.

Ray Palmer · 08-02-2012 11:57AM

happyman81 wrote: »

I dunno, I am a pedestrian in Dublin and based on my experience, I would say most cyclists don't stop at red lights, I could name a few junctions which are notorious for psychopathic cyclists (or Psycholists, as I call them). Some do stop, but most don't. Hence when I cross at the green man, I look out for cyclists more than motorists.

A far cry from saying they don't stop at every red light. Pedestrian crossing are not ever traffic light. Next time you are at the lights see how many pedestrians follow the lights.
It isn't cyclists it everybody who ignores them to an extent. Amber gambling by cars (along with straight breaking lights) and pedestrians that cross betwen traffic and against lights. look at pedestrians going to Westmorlan Street from O'Connol Bridge and see how many ignore the lights there. Green only means go while it is safe not go regardless. Been a pedestrian in Dublin all my life and have never been nearly hit by a bike but have been walked out on by pedestrians a ton of times.

If cyclist didn't stop at any lights they would dead it really is that simple. If they did manage not to have accidents and ignored all lights then it isn't a safety concern it is about obeying a rule. I have seen many road accidents and most involve a pedestrian with cars, cars with cars and then motor bikes with cars and at the end it is cyclists and cars. On a very rare occasion I have seen a pedestrian and a cyclist and of those I have sen pedestrians walk out and be hit. From cycling pedestrians walking out ignoring cyclists a hell of a lot. I am no innocent and have made mistakes but generally I go for safety first. A lot of the complaints about cyclists breaking light is about the rule not safety from what I see. I can see why it bothers people but it is an annoyance rather than a danger make it legal and the annoyance might stop.

seamus · 08-02-2012 12:58PM

check_six wrote: »

What kind of cyclists obeys the rules and stops at all the red lights? Answer: Good Cyclists (hurrah!)

You see that's a little debateable. Those who obey lights would be a mixture of good conscientous cyclists and people who obey lights because they're there to be obeyed, but who otherwise have very little road sense. The prime example of this is that women cyclists are more likely to be killed than men, precisely because they tend to obey the law more.
The same effect would actually be true of cars - that when someone blindly obeys the law with very little road sense, they actually put themselves and others in danger.

My question here is whether it's safer to have these "no road sense" people sitting waiting at red lights, or allowing them to proceed?

Given that deaths often occur at red lights due to left-turning trucks, it may actually be the case that it's safer to let them proceed, we'll have to see how the Parisian experiment turns out.

happyman81 · 08-02-2012 01:15PM

ciotog wrote: »

happyman81 wrote: »

I know this will go down like a fart in an elevator in here, but, I think that adding licence plates to bikes (or some ID system for bikes) would mean a lot of cyclists wising up when it comes to breaking lights, cycling on footpaths and cycling the wrong way down one way streets, etc. As it stands, cyclists are virtually free from prosecution when it comes to traffic laws because they can't be identified easily.

Of course, the cost is the issue.

Cyclists are virtually free from prosecution because of a lack of enforcement not a lack of identification. I've watched Gardai stand by while cyclists cycled without lights at night, ran red light and cycled on the pavement. They witnessed it so no issue of identification but chose to do nothing. I've reported motorists, using their licence plates to identify them, for dangerous driving and no prosecution (or indeed contact with me) has taken place. So licence plates aren't the fabulous panacea that people seem to think they are.

But the fact that people *think* they are is exactly my point, and is the very reason why it would work.

Think about it.

Idleater · 08-02-2012 01:17PM

seamus wrote: »

Given that deaths often occur at red lights due to left-turning trucks, it may actually be the case that it's safer to let them proceed, we'll have to see how the Parisian experiment turns out.

Unless they decide to continue "up the inside" because they "have right of way" when it is unsafe to do so.

Again, this highlights that there is no "right" answer to this as people will do silly things whether it is legal or not, and whether they know it is safe or not.

monument · 08-02-2012 02:37PM

Would it be just pandering to the people who are currently breaking the law?

Could the same point could be made about flashing lights up to the recent law change?

The newly announced review of speed limits which is likely to see speed limits increased on some road... is that just pandering to the people currently breaking the law?

What changing mandatory use of cycle lanes, is that too just pandering to the people who are currently breaking the law?

Is allowing cyclists to park on footpaths also pandering to cyclists when nobody else can legally park on a footpath?

manwithaplan wrote: »

It's not clear if they propose to allow cyclists go straight ahead at a red light at all junctions in the 30kph zone. I can see the sense of allowing cyclists go through a pedestrian light on a straight road (essentially treating it as a zebra crossing) or to go straight ahead on red at a T junction, giving way to traffic coming from the left (right in our case). I can also see the sense of allowing a cyclist go straight ahead at a junction between two one-way streets, again giving way to peds and traffic coming from the left. Allowing cyclists go straight ahead at junctions with traffic coming from both directions seems likely to cause antagonism at best and be dangerous at worst.

It's at certain, marked junctions only. Each junction could differ.

And it's not purely allowing cyclists to "run lights", it also involves giving cyclists an amber / orange filter turning light, rather than only a red one.

Rew · 08-02-2012 03:01PM

Its common sense and should be implemented. The and Us ****e is vocal minority who dont know the rules of the road them selfs to be beseeching them via their car horn and a change like this wont effect that either way.

Paris to allow cyclists to run red lights in bid to cut accidents.

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