The Bishops invite to the Pope.Being Catholic in Fine Gael.What's the story.??

CDfm · 04-02-2012 02:50PM #1

Fine Gael & the Catholic Church has been a feature since last years election.

(I get the point that Enda & the Vatican did not agree about the role of the public service & the states part in the abuse issue. That's not what this is about. )

Its mad, these guys were Ireland's conservatives and nothing prepared me for the shift.

During the week this came up after the Bishops Conference issued an invite to the Pope to come to Ireland for this Summers Eucharistic Congress. Backbenchers reacted.

Just to recap on some highpoints for me.

Government under pressure to re-open Vatican Embassy ahead of Eucharistic Congress

Fine Gael backbenchers fear Pope will shun Dublin visit in protest

Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Government-under-pressure-to-re-open-Vatican-Embassy-ahead-of-Eucharistic-Congress-137878478.html#ixzz1lQDBWijL

A bit earlier this was in the news by Fine Gael's senior senator.

Fine Gael Kerry Senator and Seanad Chief Whip, Paul Coghlan, has welcomed the appointment of Archbishop Charles Brown as the new Papal Nuncio to Ireland, describing it as a very significant step. Senator made his comments while speaking in the Seanad today (Wednesday).

http://www.finegael.ie/latest-news/2012/01/11/coghlan-welcomes-appointment-of-new-papal-nuncio/

Mid last year we had.

Chairman of the Fine Gael parliamentary party Charlie Flanagan has called for the expulsion of the Papal Nuncio, following the revelations in the Cloyne Report.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0714/cloyne.html

And this from Mayo

Fine Gael Mayor forced to defend his visit to meet Pope

Monday, 08 August 2011 16:44

Councillor McCormack
THE Fine Gael Mayor of Castlebar is to join in a private audience with Pope Benedict in Rome later today (Tuesday) despite his party leader Taoiseach Enda Kenny’s vehement attack on the Vatican for covering up clerical child sex abuse cases. Councillor Eugene McCormack said while he concurred with the hard-hitting views of Deputy Kenny, his visit to meet the Holy See at Castle Gandolfo is ‘a separate issue entirely’.

http://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/latest-news/2871-tom-kelly

Is there a debate going on in Fine Gael and if so what is it.

Will it affect the party electorally as the backbenchers seem to be nervous.

So whats the story ?

04-02-2012 03:04PM

The tackling of the church by Enda Kenny has been one of the few publicity coups of the current administration. To row back on it means there has to be a good reason. Could the religiously minded grassroots be pushing on Kenny?

Is there a battle forming between the up and coming intelligentsia and the parish pump within FG?

CDfm · 04-02-2012 03:57PM

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Is there a battle forming between the up and coming intelligentsia and the parish pump within FG?

It would be great to get some Fine Gael insider views here.

The support for Catholic Schools

http://www.ionainstitute.ie/index.php?id=1295

Paudie Coffey TD for Waterfords pain

http://finegael2011.com/pressreleases.asp?artId=5B5F5B

Enda's Embassy Review

http://www.irishcatholic.ie/site/content/taoiseach-vows-%E2%80%98review%E2%80%99-holy-see-embassy-closure

irishh_bob · 04-02-2012 07:24PM

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

The tackling of the church by Enda Kenny has been one of the few publicity coups of the current administration. To row back on it means there has to be a good reason. Could the religiously minded grassroots be pushing on Kenny?

Is there a battle forming between the up and coming intelligentsia and the parish pump within FG?

enda is himself on the parish pump wing , kenny is a devout god fearing catholic in the traditional rural sense , something tells me he himself was opposed to the closing of the embassy , it might have been a sop to labour

if they reopen it , i will never allow a fine gael TD to spoof on my doorstep about how the goverment has no money for hospitals or roads

CDfm · 04-02-2012 07:54PM

irishh_bob wrote: »

enda is himself on the parish pump wing , kenny is a devout god fearing catholic in the traditional rural sense , something tells me he himself was opposed to the closing of the embassy , it might have been a sop to labour

You are toning down Enda & FG's huge campaign.
So come off it, Enda attacked the Pope & the Vatican with venom shortly after he became Taoiseach in what became to most prolonged attack by any European leader on the Pope . This was reported in detail worldwide and gave Kenny some international notoriety.Not sure if the German's appreciated their pope being attacked.

http://www.irishcatholic.ie/site/content/meaning-taoiseach-enda-kennys-speech-david-quinn

But what is not being reported is how this is being translated into the Fine Gael Party on a policy level and at a political support level.

What is happening in the party in respect of this.?

CDfm · 05-02-2012 05:16PM

I just gotta post this

Noonan says 'Enda is a better Catholic than me'

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gilmores-not-an-inch-on-vatican-sparks-crisis-3010353.html

Translate as he want's a good seat if Pope Benedict does arrive to say Mass at the Phoenix Park.

Will Michael D be a NIMBY.

Solair · 05-02-2012 11:57PM

Are the bishops prepared to pay the muli mullion security bill or will they just foist on the tax payer?

The Queens visit and Obamas visit cost an absolute bloody fortune !

Why would a bankrupt state want to host yet another high risk security liability ?

Did the bishops ask the Government if this was ok before issuing an invite that could burden the state with anything up to a 30 million security bill???

southsiderosie · 06-02-2012 12:24AM

Hi OP -

This isn't really an economic issue, so I'm going to move this from Irish Economy out to the main Politics page.

Cheers,

SSR

CDfm · 06-02-2012 12:32AM

Solair wrote: »

Are the bishops prepared to pay the muli mullion security bill or will they just foist on the tax payer?

The Queens visit and Obamas visit cost an absolute bloody fortune !

Why would a bankrupt state want to host yet another high risk security liability ?

Did the bishops ask the Government if this was ok before issuing an invite that could burden the state with anything up to a 30 million security bill???

The Government issued a statement

Irish PM: We'll send an invite to Pope but only if he wants to visit

4 7ShareThis11
By Fionnan Sheahan and Lise Hand
Friday, 3 February 2012

Enda Kenny

Taoiseach Enda Kenny said yesterday that the Government would only invite the Pope to Ireland if there is an indication he is definitely going to come.
The move comes as Tanaiste Eamon Gilmore dug in against Fine Gael demands for a U-turn over the closure of the Vatican Embassy.
Thousands of pilgrims and members of the Catholic Church will come to Dublin for the 50th International Eucharistic Congress this June in Croke Park.

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/irish-pm-well-send-an-invite-to-pope-but-only-if-he-wants-to-visit-16112901.html#ixzz1lYXcCzsm

So have politicians been attending church events ?

Pictures of a newly elected President Higgins have been circulating for months on a parish website.

23 November 2011

More photographs with President Michael D. Higgins after Mass last Sunday

Thanks to Assumpta Francis for some more photographs from when the newly elected President of Ireland met and greeted parishioners after he had attended the 12.15pm Mass last Sunday.

Fleur Colohan, Mrs Sabina and President Michael D. Higgins, Assumpta Francis
Margaret Jackson and President Michael D. Higgins
Carol Hurley and President Michael D. Higgins

Enda Kenny is seen here on the A Wing and a Prayer Musical Website a/k/a Knock Airport the Musical

Pictured at the show were, front from left: Frankie Forde-Waldron (cast), Liam Scollan, Chairman Ireland West Airport Knock, An Taoiseach Enda Kenny, Christina Fahy. Back from left: Jim Fahy, Western Editor RTE, Terry Reilly, Co-writer On a Wing and a Payer The Musical, Mary Reilly, John Tully, secretary Mayo Roscommon Hospice and John Murphy, chairman Mayo Roscommon Hospice. Photo © Ken Wright Photography 2011.

Taoiseach Enda Kenny and his wife Fionnuala were given a rousing reception when they attended On a Wing and a Prayer The Musical in the Royal Theatre, Castlebar, on Saturday night.
The Taoiseach said it was a wonderful production and he took time out to meet the cast and members of the audience after the show.

http://wingandprayermusical.com/category/news/

CDfm · 06-02-2012 12:36AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Hi OP -

This isn't really an economic issue, so I'm going to move this from Irish Economy out to the main Politics page.

Cheers,

SSR

Thanks, I sort of didn't know where it would fit best.

CDfm · 07-02-2012 07:51AM

Just when people thought Enda's religious credentials were crumbling along comes this

Kenny confirms plan to join Trap on Croagh Patrick climb

3

06/02/2012 - 11:45:07
The Taoiseach has confirmed he will climb Croagh Patrick in Co Mayo with Ireland soccer manager Giovanni Trappitoni before the team departs for the European Championships this summer.

Enda Kenny said the pair, along with scores of volunteers, hoped to raise money for a number of local charities by pitching in €20 a head.

He announced the plan during his acceptance speech as Mayo Person of The Year at a ceremony in Dublin last Saturday evening - which Midwest Radio attended.

"I expect we'll get maybe 10,000 people to climb the holy mountain, at €20 a head," he said.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/kenny-confirms-plan-to-join-trap-on-croagh-patrick-climb-538769.html#ixzz1lgERTzwp

I wonder will Eamonn Gilmore be joining them.

john reilly · 08-02-2012 09:14PM

Solair wrote: »

Are the bishops prepared to pay the muli mullion security bill or will they just foist on the tax payer?

The Queens visit and Obamas visit cost an absolute bloody fortune !

Why would a bankrupt state want to host yet another high risk security liability ?

Did the bishops ask the Government if this was ok before issuing an invite that could burden the state with anything up to a 30 million security bill???

the majority of irish people are catholics and we paid for the head of the church of england to visit. yet you dont want to pay for the head of the catholic church to visit even though the security mr=easures would be a lot less

CDfm · 08-02-2012 09:33PM

john reilly wrote: »

the majority of irish people are catholics and we paid for the head of the church of england to visit. yet you dont want to pay for the head of the catholic church to visit even though the security mr=easures would be a lot less

And the return in votes for Fine Gael at the ballot box .

Dr Galen · 08-02-2012 09:36PM

The British Queen was invited as a Head of State, not because she was the head of a church. You could argue that the Pope is the head of the Vatican state in fairness, but really that argument doesn't hold a lot of water really.

Having the Pope over wouldn't cost anything near the amount of hosting Obama or the Queen though.

Min · 09-02-2012 01:06PM

The problem for FG is they know the people know the ambassador to the Holy See was removed not for financial reasons as the lies told by Eamon Gilmore. Eamon Gilmore removed the ambassador out of Rome because he is a fanatical atheist who has come from a communist background in the workers party. A party that had looked for aid from the Soviet Union, East Germany, China and even North Korea.
Back in the late 1970's Eamon Gilmore was busy taking the union of Students in Ireland to the communist world festival of youth and students.
Sure only a few years later the communists tried to kill the Pope. It is no coincidence that Gilmore is going on about the BRIC nations given he has good contacts in Russia and China going back to his Workers party days.

I think some in FG are finally starting to see who they actually got into bed with.
The deluded Eamon Gilmore for Taoiseach, Frankfurt's way or Labour's way.
It is time for FG to show some backbone and take this issue to Gilmore, who had only chose to tell lies on why the embassy was closed.

Byron85 · 09-02-2012 01:44PM

Min wrote: »

The problem for FG is they know the people know the ambassador to the Holy See was removed not for financial reasons as the lies told by Eamon Gilmore. Eamon Gilmore removed the ambassador out of Rome because he is a fanatical atheist who has come from a communist background in the workers party. A party that had looked for aid from the Soviet Union, East Germany, China and even North Korea.
Back in the late 1970's Eamon Gilmore was busy taking the union of Students in Ireland to the communist world festival of youth and students.
Sure only a few years later the communists tried to kill the Pope. It is no coincidence that Gilmore is going on about the BRIC nations given he has good contacts in Russia and China going back to his Workers party days.

I think some in FG are finally starting to see who they actually got into bed with.
The deluded Eamon Gilmore for Taoiseach, Frankfurt's way or Labour's way.
It is time for FG to show some backbone and take this issue to Gilmore, who had only chose to tell lies on why the embassy was closed.

Well, that didn't take as long as I expected.

irishh_bob · 09-02-2012 01:44PM

Min wrote: »

The problem for FG is they know the people know the ambassador to the Holy See was removed not for financial reasons as the lies told by Eamon Gilmore. Eamon Gilmore removed the ambassador out of Rome because he is a fanatical atheist who has come from a communist background in the workers party. A party that had looked for aid from the Soviet Union, East Germany, China and even North Korea.
Back in the late 1970's Eamon Gilmore was busy taking the union of Students in Ireland to the communist world festival of youth and students.
Sure only a few years later the communists tried to kill the Pope. It is no coincidence that Gilmore is going on about the BRIC nations given he has good contacts in Russia and China going back to his Workers party days.

I think some in FG are finally starting to see who they actually got into bed with.
The deluded Eamon Gilmore for Taoiseach, Frankfurt's way or Labour's way.
It is time for FG to show some backbone and take this issue to Gilmore, who had only chose to tell lies on why the embassy was closed.

even gilmore was as devout as kenny , those who have thier knickers in a twist over the tanaistes percieved insistance on closing the embassy , would still attack the labour leader

tell me , what cuts are you willing to make elsewhere in order to keep this embassy open , hospital beds , garda stations ?

Nodin · 09-02-2012 01:44PM

Min wrote: »

The problem for FG is they know the people know the ambassador to the Holy See was removed not (......)issue to Gilmore, who had only chose to tell lies on why the embassy was closed.

Yep. The comic state of affairs where the Vatican won't accept Ambassadors with dual duties in Italy has nothing to do with it at all, at all......

Manach · 09-02-2012 01:50PM

If the test for an embassy is the status and importance of a state, then shall it be the case of various embassies to Ireland being closed in Dublin in the near future given the bankrupt nature of this state.

CDfm · 09-02-2012 01:55PM

Min wrote: »

I think some in FG are finally starting to see who they actually got into bed with.
The deluded Eamon Gilmore for Taoiseach, Frankfurt's way or Labour's way.
It is time for FG to show some backbone and take this issue to Gilmore, who had only chose to tell lies on why the embassy was closed.

The Embassy in the Vatican didn't really "close", AFAIK, didn't the Ambassador to Italy move in there as his official residence ?

Its all very confusing.

Byron85 wrote: »

Well, that didn't take as long as I expected.

As the junior partner in government FG has to speak up more often.

Min · 09-02-2012 04:16PM

Nodin wrote: »

Yep. The comic state of affairs where the Vatican won't accept Ambassadors with dual duties in Italy has nothing to do with it at all, at all......

But we have three ambassadors in Brussels, two in Switzerland, can't remember was it two or three in the USA.

Min · 09-02-2012 04:35PM

irishh_bob wrote: »

even gilmore was as devout as kenny , those who have thier knickers in a twist over the tanaistes percieved insistance on closing the embassy , would still attack the labour leader

tell me , what cuts are you willing to make elsewhere in order to keep this embassy open , hospital beds , garda stations ?

Dail expenses and wages.
Cuts to the higher paid in the civil and public service.

Refuse to pay the promissory notes until we get a better deal, since this is all about the ECB balancing it's books.

Given the Holy See is where leaders from all around the world and from all faiths go, it is one of the more important listening posts out there when it comes to world affairs.
We saw that too when Iraq was going to be invaded, Bush went there and Tariq Aziz went there for help in trying to convince Bush not to invade.
We saw how at the funeral of the same Pope, there were kings and queens, presidents and prime ministers at the funeral, it is not often you have the president of Iran sitting close to the US president.
This is where world leaders go as the pope is the leader of 1.2 billion Catholics.

The most expensive embassies for 2011 from the Irish Times:

Brussels €4,194,314
London €3,702,234
New York €2,081,792
Paris (pictured) €1,817,710
Tokyo €1,637,651
Washington €1,329,159
Rome €1,180,581

The least expensive was in Dili, East Timor, an embassy Gilmore closed.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0815/1224302449535.html

Gilmore could have made savings easily in his department without closing any embassy, The ones he closed were not the problem ones costwise.

Nodin · 09-02-2012 04:51PM

Min wrote: »

But we have three ambassadors in Brussels, .

News to me. You've a source for that?

Min wrote: »

two in Switzerland, can't remember was it two or three in the USA.

As above......

Min wrote:

Given the Holy See is where leaders from all around the world and from all faiths go, it is one of the more important listening posts out there when it comes to world affairs.

...even if this were true, which I doubt, we have an embassy in Italy.

irishh_bob · 09-02-2012 06:35PM

Min wrote: »

Dail expenses and wages.
Cuts to the higher paid in the civil and public service.

Refuse to pay the promissory notes until we get a better deal, since this is all about the ECB balancing it's books.

Given the Holy See is where leaders from all around the world and from all faiths go, it is one of the more important listening posts out there when it comes to world affairs.
We saw that too when Iraq was going to be invaded, Bush went there and Tariq Aziz went there for help in trying to convince Bush not to invade.
We saw how at the funeral of the same Pope, there were kings and queens, presidents and prime ministers at the funeral, it is not often you have the president of Iran sitting close to the US president.
This is where world leaders go as the pope is the leader of 1.2 billion Catholics.

The most expensive embassies for 2011 from the Irish Times:

Brussels €4,194,314
London €3,702,234
New York €2,081,792
Paris (pictured) €1,817,710
Tokyo €1,637,651
Washington €1,329,159
Rome €1,180,581

The least expensive was in Dili, East Timor, an embassy Gilmore closed.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0815/1224302449535.html

Gilmore could have made savings easily in his department without closing any embassy, The ones he closed were not the problem ones costwise.

id like to see politicans wages and expenses cut some more but i can think of a load of better things to do with the money than reoppning an embasy in the vatican

some say the joe duffy liveline show is a good listening post , religon is important to a lot of people in a lot of countries which is why politicans show such deference to the likes of the pope but the vatican has no hard influence on global policy

CDfm · 10-02-2012 12:50AM

irishh_bob wrote: »

some say the joe duffy liveline show is a good listening post , religon is important to a lot of people in a lot of countries which is why politicans show such deference to the likes of the pope but the vatican has no hard influence on global policy

But isn't the real issue here that the leadership & government are out of step with the rank and file of their respective parties.

Michael D is photo'd at Mass & Enda is going on pilgrimages to Croagh Patrick.

Say what you want but they either believe or are cynically trying to hoodwink the electorate.

kraggy · 10-02-2012 01:07AM

Min wrote: »

Dail expenses and wages.
Cuts to the higher paid in the civil and public service.

Refuse to pay the promissory notes until we get a better deal, since this is all about the ECB balancing it's books.

Given the Holy See is where leaders from all around the world and from all faiths go, it is one of the more important listening posts out there when it comes to world affairs.
We saw that too when Iraq was going to be invaded, Bush went there and Tariq Aziz went there for help in trying to convince Bush not to invade.
We saw how at the funeral of the same Pope, there were kings and queens, presidents and prime ministers at the funeral, it is not often you have the president of Iran sitting close to the US president.
This is where world leaders go as the pope is the leader of 1.2 billion Catholics.

The most expensive embassies for 2011 from the Irish Times:

Brussels €4,194,314
London €3,702,234
New York €2,081,792
Paris (pictured) €1,817,710
Tokyo €1,637,651
Washington €1,329,159
Rome €1,180,581

The least expensive was in Dili, East Timor, an embassy Gilmore closed.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0815/1224302449535.html

Gilmore could have made savings easily in his department without closing any embassy, The ones he closed were not the problem ones costwise.

Why should we have an embassy to a "State" whose existence is solely related to a particular religion?

Should we have diplomatic buildings and extra embassy staff in a specially provided consulate in Mecca, Saudi Arabia?

How about extra ambassadorial staff in a special little buliding beside the Watchtower building in New York?

Good riddance to what has always been an unnecessary set-up.

Manach · 10-02-2012 01:18AM

kraggy wrote: »

Why should we have an embassy to a "State" whose existence is solely related to a particular religion?

1- The status of the Vatican according the text, "Handbook of International Law" - it is that of a state.
2- Besides domestic considerations, we Catholics make up a fair number of adherents. To tap into that worldwide community via the Vatican might be considered a good investment.

RichieC · 10-02-2012 01:32AM

People. Must. Have nothing to do all day if they care about this...

Nodin · 10-02-2012 01:39AM

CDfm wrote: »

But isn't the real issue here that the leadership & government are out of step with the rank and file of their respective parties.

Michael D is photo'd at Mass & Enda is going on pilgrimages to Croagh Patrick.

Say what you want but they either believe or are cynically trying to hoodwink the electorate.

Michael D is no longer considered a "political" figure as he's now president. It's a job where keeping the mouth shut about most issues is part of the job description. Additionally, I fail to see the connection between him and the current issue.

You also presume on what the thoughts of the majority of rank and file members of both partys are on the subject. Unless you've some survey to hand?

You also seem to be implying that Enda is somehow acting hypocritically by climbing croagh patrick, which is, again, a very dubious inference to draw.

Manach wrote:

Besides domestic considerations, we Catholics make up a fair number of adherents. To tap into that worldwide community via the Vatican might be considered a good investment.

...and you'd be 100% correct - if we were living in pre-reformation Europe over six centuries ago. The structure of the world has moved on since then.

CDfm · 10-02-2012 02:16AM

Nodin wrote: »

Additionally, I fail to see the connection between him and the current issue.
Unless you've some survey to hand?

a very dubious inference to draw.

Is the Pope catholic ?

Nodin · 10-02-2012 07:41AM

CDfm wrote: »

Is the Pope catholic ?

Again - you're making a very large number of assumptions with seemingly no back up. Again - Michael D is elected President and as such is to be 'above' current party politics. Nor is there an obvious link between him and the current issue, other than his sharing party membership with E. Gilmore. If you've something substantive to add to add meat to your points, please provide it.

The Bishops invite to the Pope.Being Catholic in Fine Gael.What's the story.??

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