The Bishops invite to the Pope.Being Catholic in Fine Gael.What's the story.??

CDfm

Fine Gael & the Catholic Church has been a feature since last years election.

(I get the point that Enda & the Vatican did not agree about the role of the public service & the states part in the abuse issue. That's not what this is about. )

Its mad, these guys were Ireland's conservatives and nothing prepared me for the shift.

During the week this came up after the Bishops Conference issued an invite to the Pope to come to Ireland for this Summers Eucharistic Congress. Backbenchers reacted.

Just to recap on some highpoints for me.

Government under pressure to re-open Vatican Embassy ahead of Eucharistic Congress

Fine Gael backbenchers fear Pope will shun Dublin visit in protest

Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Government-under-pressure-to-re-open-Vatican-Embassy-ahead-of-Eucharistic-Congress-137878478.html#ixzz1lQDBWijL

A bit earlier this was in the news by Fine Gael's senior senator.

Fine Gael Kerry Senator and Seanad Chief Whip, Paul Coghlan, has welcomed the appointment of Archbishop Charles Brown as the new Papal Nuncio to Ireland, describing it as a very significant step. Senator made his comments while speaking in the Seanad today (Wednesday).

http://www.finegael.ie/latest-news/2012/01/11/coghlan-welcomes-appointment-of-new-papal-nuncio/

Mid last year we had.

Chairman of the Fine Gael parliamentary party Charlie Flanagan has called for the expulsion of the Papal Nuncio, following the revelations in the Cloyne Report.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0714/cloyne.html

And this from Mayo

Fine Gael Mayor forced to defend his visit to meet Pope


Monday, 08 August 2011 16:44

Councillor McCormack

THE Fine Gael Mayor of Castlebar is to join in a private audience with Pope Benedict in Rome later today (Tuesday) despite his party leader Taoiseach Enda Kenny’s vehement attack on the Vatican for covering up clerical child sex abuse cases. Councillor Eugene McCormack said while he concurred with the hard-hitting views of Deputy Kenny, his visit to meet the Holy See at Castle Gandolfo is ‘a separate issue entirely’.


http://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/latest-news/2871-tom-kelly

Is there a debate going on in Fine Gael and if so what is it.

Will it affect the party electorally as the backbenchers seem to be nervous.

So whats the story ?

The tackling of the church by Enda Kenny has been one of the few publicity coups of the current administration. To row back on it means there has to be a good reason. Could the religiously minded grassroots be pushing on Kenny?

Is there a battle forming between the up and coming intelligentsia and the parish pump within FG?

CDfm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Is there a battle forming between the up and coming intelligentsia and the parish pump within FG?

It would be great to get some Fine Gael insider views here.

The support for Catholic Schools

http://www.ionainstitute.ie/index.php?id=1295

Paudie Coffey TD for Waterfords pain

http://finegael2011.com/pressreleases.asp?artId=5B5F5B

Enda's Embassy Review

http://www.irishcatholic.ie/site/content/taoiseach-vows-%E2%80%98review%E2%80%99-holy-see-embassy-closure

irishh_bob

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

The tackling of the church by Enda Kenny has been one of the few publicity coups of the current administration. To row back on it means there has to be a good reason. Could the religiously minded grassroots be pushing on Kenny?

Is there a battle forming between the up and coming intelligentsia and the parish pump within FG?

enda is himself on the parish pump wing , kenny is a devout god fearing catholic in the traditional rural sense , something tells me he himself was opposed to the closing of the embassy , it might have been a sop to labour

if they reopen it , i will never allow a fine gael TD to spoof on my doorstep about how the goverment has no money for hospitals or roads

CDfm

irishh_bob wrote: »

enda is himself on the parish pump wing , kenny is a devout god fearing catholic in the traditional rural sense , something tells me he himself was opposed to the closing of the embassy , it might have been a sop to labour

You are toning down Enda & FG's huge campaign.
So come off it, Enda attacked the Pope & the Vatican with venom shortly after he became Taoiseach in what became to most prolonged attack by any European leader on the Pope . This was reported in detail worldwide and gave Kenny some international notoriety.Not sure if the German's appreciated their pope being attacked.

http://www.irishcatholic.ie/site/content/meaning-taoiseach-enda-kennys-speech-david-quinn

But what is not being reported is how this is being translated into the Fine Gael Party on a policy level and at a political support level.

What is happening in the party in respect of this.?

CDfm

I just gotta post this

Noonan says 'Enda is a better Catholic than me'


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gilmores-not-an-inch-on-vatican-sparks-crisis-3010353.html

Translate as he want's a good seat if Pope Benedict does arrive to say Mass at the Phoenix Park.

Will Michael D be a NIMBY.

Solair

Are the bishops prepared to pay the muli mullion security bill or will they just foist on the tax payer?

The Queens visit and Obamas visit cost an absolute bloody fortune !

Why would a bankrupt state want to host yet another high risk security liability ?


Did the bishops ask the Government if this was ok before issuing an invite that could burden the state with anything up to a 30 million security bill???

southsiderosie

Hi OP -

This isn't really an economic issue, so I'm going to move this from Irish Economy out to the main Politics page.

Cheers,

SSR

CDfm

Solair wrote: »

Are the bishops prepared to pay the muli mullion security bill or will they just foist on the tax payer?

The Queens visit and Obamas visit cost an absolute bloody fortune !

Why would a bankrupt state want to host yet another high risk security liability ?


Did the bishops ask the Government if this was ok before issuing an invite that could burden the state with anything up to a 30 million security bill???

The Government issued a statement

Irish PM: We'll send an invite to Pope but only if he wants to visit

4 7ShareThis11
By Fionnan Sheahan and Lise Hand
Friday, 3 February 2012

Enda Kenny





Taoiseach Enda Kenny said yesterday that the Government would only invite the Pope to Ireland if there is an indication he is definitely going to come.
The move comes as Tanaiste Eamon Gilmore dug in against Fine Gael demands for a U-turn over the closure of the Vatican Embassy.
Thousands of pilgrims and members of the Catholic Church will come to Dublin for the 50th International Eucharistic Congress this June in Croke Park.



Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/irish-pm-well-send-an-invite-to-pope-but-only-if-he-wants-to-visit-16112901.html#ixzz1lYXcCzsm

So have politicians been attending church events ?

Pictures of a newly elected President Higgins have been circulating for months on a parish website.

23 November 2011

More photographs with President Michael D. Higgins after Mass last Sunday


Thanks to Assumpta Francis for some more photographs from when the newly elected President of Ireland met and greeted parishioners after he had attended the 12.15pm Mass last Sunday.

Fleur Colohan, Mrs Sabina and President Michael D. Higgins, Assumpta Francis
Margaret Jackson and President Michael D. Higgins
Carol Hurley and President Michael D. Higgins

Enda Kenny is seen here on the A Wing and a Prayer Musical Website a/k/a Knock Airport the Musical

Pictured at the show were, front from left: Frankie Forde-Waldron (cast), Liam Scollan, Chairman Ireland West Airport Knock, An Taoiseach Enda Kenny, Christina Fahy. Back from left: Jim Fahy, Western Editor RTE, Terry Reilly, Co-writer On a Wing and a Payer The Musical, Mary Reilly, John Tully, secretary Mayo Roscommon Hospice and John Murphy, chairman Mayo Roscommon Hospice. Photo © Ken Wright Photography 2011.

Taoiseach Enda Kenny and his wife Fionnuala were given a rousing reception when they attended On a Wing and a Prayer The Musical in the Royal Theatre, Castlebar, on Saturday night.
The Taoiseach said it was a wonderful production and he took time out to meet the cast and members of the audience after the show.

http://wingandprayermusical.com/category/news/

CDfm

southsiderosie wrote: »

Hi OP -

This isn't really an economic issue, so I'm going to move this from Irish Economy out to the main Politics page.

Cheers,

SSR

Thanks, I sort of didn't know where it would fit best.

CDfm

Just when people thought Enda's religious credentials were crumbling along comes this

Kenny confirms plan to join Trap on Croagh Patrick climb

3

06/02/2012 - 11:45:07
The Taoiseach has confirmed he will climb Croagh Patrick in Co Mayo with Ireland soccer manager Giovanni Trappitoni before the team departs for the European Championships this summer.

Enda Kenny said the pair, along with scores of volunteers, hoped to raise money for a number of local charities by pitching in €20 a head.

He announced the plan during his acceptance speech as Mayo Person of The Year at a ceremony in Dublin last Saturday evening - which Midwest Radio attended.

"I expect we'll get maybe 10,000 people to climb the holy mountain, at €20 a head," he said.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/kenny-confirms-plan-to-join-trap-on-croagh-patrick-climb-538769.html#ixzz1lgERTzwp

I wonder will Eamonn Gilmore be joining them.

john reilly

Solair wrote: »

Are the bishops prepared to pay the muli mullion security bill or will they just foist on the tax payer?

The Queens visit and Obamas visit cost an absolute bloody fortune !

Why would a bankrupt state want to host yet another high risk security liability ?


Did the bishops ask the Government if this was ok before issuing an invite that could burden the state with anything up to a 30 million security bill???

the majority of irish people are catholics and we paid for the head of the church of england to visit. yet you dont want to pay for the head of the catholic church to visit even though the security mr=easures would be a lot less

CDfm

john reilly wrote: »

the majority of irish people are catholics and we paid for the head of the church of england to visit. yet you dont want to pay for the head of the catholic church to visit even though the security mr=easures would be a lot less

And the return in votes for Fine Gael at the ballot box .

Dr Galen

The British Queen was invited as a Head of State, not because she was the head of a church. You could argue that the Pope is the head of the Vatican state in fairness, but really that argument doesn't hold a lot of water really.

Having the Pope over wouldn't cost anything near the amount of hosting Obama or the Queen though.

Min

The problem for FG is they know the people know the ambassador to the Holy See was removed not for financial reasons as the lies told by Eamon Gilmore. Eamon Gilmore removed the ambassador out of Rome because he is a fanatical atheist who has come from a communist background in the workers party. A party that had looked for aid from the Soviet Union, East Germany, China and even North Korea.
Back in the late 1970's Eamon Gilmore was busy taking the union of Students in Ireland to the communist world festival of youth and students.
Sure only a few years later the communists tried to kill the Pope. It is no coincidence that Gilmore is going on about the BRIC nations given he has good contacts in Russia and China going back to his Workers party days.

I think some in FG are finally starting to see who they actually got into bed with.
The deluded Eamon Gilmore for Taoiseach, Frankfurt's way or Labour's way.
It is time for FG to show some backbone and take this issue to Gilmore, who had only chose to tell lies on why the embassy was closed.

Byron85

Min wrote: »

The problem for FG is they know the people know the ambassador to the Holy See was removed not for financial reasons as the lies told by Eamon Gilmore. Eamon Gilmore removed the ambassador out of Rome because he is a fanatical atheist who has come from a communist background in the workers party. A party that had looked for aid from the Soviet Union, East Germany, China and even North Korea.
Back in the late 1970's Eamon Gilmore was busy taking the union of Students in Ireland to the communist world festival of youth and students.
Sure only a few years later the communists tried to kill the Pope. It is no coincidence that Gilmore is going on about the BRIC nations given he has good contacts in Russia and China going back to his Workers party days.

I think some in FG are finally starting to see who they actually got into bed with.
The deluded Eamon Gilmore for Taoiseach, Frankfurt's way or Labour's way.
It is time for FG to show some backbone and take this issue to Gilmore, who had only chose to tell lies on why the embassy was closed.

Well, that didn't take as long as I expected.

irishh_bob

Min wrote: »

The problem for FG is they know the people know the ambassador to the Holy See was removed not for financial reasons as the lies told by Eamon Gilmore. Eamon Gilmore removed the ambassador out of Rome because he is a fanatical atheist who has come from a communist background in the workers party. A party that had looked for aid from the Soviet Union, East Germany, China and even North Korea.
Back in the late 1970's Eamon Gilmore was busy taking the union of Students in Ireland to the communist world festival of youth and students.
Sure only a few years later the communists tried to kill the Pope. It is no coincidence that Gilmore is going on about the BRIC nations given he has good contacts in Russia and China going back to his Workers party days.

I think some in FG are finally starting to see who they actually got into bed with.
The deluded Eamon Gilmore for Taoiseach, Frankfurt's way or Labour's way.
It is time for FG to show some backbone and take this issue to Gilmore, who had only chose to tell lies on why the embassy was closed.

even gilmore was as devout as kenny , those who have thier knickers in a twist over the tanaistes percieved insistance on closing the embassy , would still attack the labour leader

tell me , what cuts are you willing to make elsewhere in order to keep this embassy open , hospital beds , garda stations ?

Nodin

Min wrote: »

The problem for FG is they know the people know the ambassador to the Holy See was removed not (......)issue to Gilmore, who had only chose to tell lies on why the embassy was closed.

Yep. The comic state of affairs where the Vatican won't accept Ambassadors with dual duties in Italy has nothing to do with it at all, at all......

Manach

If the test for an embassy is the status and importance of a state, then shall it be the case of various embassies to Ireland being closed in Dublin in the near future given the bankrupt nature of this state.

CDfm

Min wrote: »

I think some in FG are finally starting to see who they actually got into bed with.
The deluded Eamon Gilmore for Taoiseach, Frankfurt's way or Labour's way.
It is time for FG to show some backbone and take this issue to Gilmore, who had only chose to tell lies on why the embassy was closed.

The Embassy in the Vatican didn't really "close", AFAIK, didn't the Ambassador to Italy move in there as his official residence ?

Its all very confusing.

Byron85 wrote: »

Well, that didn't take as long as I expected.

As the junior partner in government FG has to speak up more often.

Min

Nodin wrote: »

Yep. The comic state of affairs where the Vatican won't accept Ambassadors with dual duties in Italy has nothing to do with it at all, at all......

But we have three ambassadors in Brussels, two in Switzerland, can't remember was it two or three in the USA.

Min

irishh_bob wrote: »

even gilmore was as devout as kenny , those who have thier knickers in a twist over the tanaistes percieved insistance on closing the embassy , would still attack the labour leader

tell me , what cuts are you willing to make elsewhere in order to keep this embassy open , hospital beds , garda stations ?

Dail expenses and wages.
Cuts to the higher paid in the civil and public service.

Refuse to pay the promissory notes until we get a better deal, since this is all about the ECB balancing it's books.

Given the Holy See is where leaders from all around the world and from all faiths go, it is one of the more important listening posts out there when it comes to world affairs.
We saw that too when Iraq was going to be invaded, Bush went there and Tariq Aziz went there for help in trying to convince Bush not to invade.
We saw how at the funeral of the same Pope, there were kings and queens, presidents and prime ministers at the funeral, it is not often you have the president of Iran sitting close to the US president.
This is where world leaders go as the pope is the leader of 1.2 billion Catholics.

The most expensive embassies for 2011 from the Irish Times:

Brussels €4,194,314
London €3,702,234
New York €2,081,792
Paris (pictured) €1,817,710
Tokyo €1,637,651
Washington €1,329,159
Rome €1,180,581


The least expensive was in Dili, East Timor, an embassy Gilmore closed.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0815/1224302449535.html


Gilmore could have made savings easily in his department without closing any embassy, The ones he closed were not the problem ones costwise.

Nodin

Min wrote: »

But we have three ambassadors in Brussels, .

News to me. You've a source for that?

Min wrote: »

two in Switzerland, can't remember was it two or three in the USA.

As above......

Min wrote:

Given the Holy See is where leaders from all around the world and from all faiths go, it is one of the more important listening posts out there when it comes to world affairs.

...even if this were true, which I doubt, we have an embassy in Italy.

irishh_bob

Min wrote: »

Dail expenses and wages.
Cuts to the higher paid in the civil and public service.

Refuse to pay the promissory notes until we get a better deal, since this is all about the ECB balancing it's books.

Given the Holy See is where leaders from all around the world and from all faiths go, it is one of the more important listening posts out there when it comes to world affairs.
We saw that too when Iraq was going to be invaded, Bush went there and Tariq Aziz went there for help in trying to convince Bush not to invade.
We saw how at the funeral of the same Pope, there were kings and queens, presidents and prime ministers at the funeral, it is not often you have the president of Iran sitting close to the US president.
This is where world leaders go as the pope is the leader of 1.2 billion Catholics.

The most expensive embassies for 2011 from the Irish Times:

Brussels €4,194,314
London €3,702,234
New York €2,081,792
Paris (pictured) €1,817,710
Tokyo €1,637,651
Washington €1,329,159
Rome €1,180,581


The least expensive was in Dili, East Timor, an embassy Gilmore closed.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0815/1224302449535.html


Gilmore could have made savings easily in his department without closing any embassy, The ones he closed were not the problem ones costwise.

id like to see politicans wages and expenses cut some more but i can think of a load of better things to do with the money than reoppning an embasy in the vatican

some say the joe duffy liveline show is a good listening post , religon is important to a lot of people in a lot of countries which is why politicans show such deference to the likes of the pope but the vatican has no hard influence on global policy

CDfm

irishh_bob wrote: »

some say the joe duffy liveline show is a good listening post , religon is important to a lot of people in a lot of countries which is why politicans show such deference to the likes of the pope but the vatican has no hard influence on global policy

But isn't the real issue here that the leadership & government are out of step with the rank and file of their respective parties.

Michael D is photo'd at Mass & Enda is going on pilgrimages to Croagh Patrick.

Say what you want but they either believe or are cynically trying to hoodwink the electorate.

kraggy

Min wrote: »

Dail expenses and wages.
Cuts to the higher paid in the civil and public service.

Refuse to pay the promissory notes until we get a better deal, since this is all about the ECB balancing it's books.

Given the Holy See is where leaders from all around the world and from all faiths go, it is one of the more important listening posts out there when it comes to world affairs.
We saw that too when Iraq was going to be invaded, Bush went there and Tariq Aziz went there for help in trying to convince Bush not to invade.
We saw how at the funeral of the same Pope, there were kings and queens, presidents and prime ministers at the funeral, it is not often you have the president of Iran sitting close to the US president.
This is where world leaders go as the pope is the leader of 1.2 billion Catholics.

The most expensive embassies for 2011 from the Irish Times:

Brussels €4,194,314
London €3,702,234
New York €2,081,792
Paris (pictured) €1,817,710
Tokyo €1,637,651
Washington €1,329,159
Rome €1,180,581


The least expensive was in Dili, East Timor, an embassy Gilmore closed.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0815/1224302449535.html


Gilmore could have made savings easily in his department without closing any embassy, The ones he closed were not the problem ones costwise.

Why should we have an embassy to a "State" whose existence is solely related to a particular religion?

Should we have diplomatic buildings and extra embassy staff in a specially provided consulate in Mecca, Saudi Arabia?

How about extra ambassadorial staff in a special little buliding beside the Watchtower building in New York?

Good riddance to what has always been an unnecessary set-up.

Manach

kraggy wrote: »

Why should we have an embassy to a "State" whose existence is solely related to a particular religion?

1- The status of the Vatican according the text, "Handbook of International Law" - it is that of a state.
2- Besides domestic considerations, we Catholics make up a fair number of adherents. To tap into that worldwide community via the Vatican might be considered a good investment.

RichieC

People. Must. Have nothing to do all day if they care about this...

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

But isn't the real issue here that the leadership & government are out of step with the rank and file of their respective parties.

Michael D is photo'd at Mass & Enda is going on pilgrimages to Croagh Patrick.

Say what you want but they either believe or are cynically trying to hoodwink the electorate.

Michael D is no longer considered a "political" figure as he's now president. It's a job where keeping the mouth shut about most issues is part of the job description. Additionally, I fail to see the connection between him and the current issue.

You also presume on what the thoughts of the majority of rank and file members of both partys are on the subject. Unless you've some survey to hand?

You also seem to be implying that Enda is somehow acting hypocritically by climbing croagh patrick, which is, again, a very dubious inference to draw.

Manach wrote:

Besides domestic considerations, we Catholics make up a fair number of adherents. To tap into that worldwide community via the Vatican might be considered a good investment.

...and you'd be 100% correct - if we were living in pre-reformation Europe over six centuries ago. The structure of the world has moved on since then.

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

Additionally, I fail to see the connection between him and the current issue.
Unless you've some survey to hand?

a very dubious inference to draw.

Is the Pope catholic ?

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

Is the Pope catholic ?

Again - you're making a very large number of assumptions with seemingly no back up. Again - Michael D is elected President and as such is to be 'above' current party politics. Nor is there an obvious link between him and the current issue, other than his sharing party membership with E. Gilmore. If you've something substantive to add to add meat to your points, please provide it.

CDfm

CDfm wrote: »

Is the Pope catholic ?

Nodin wrote: »

Again - you're making a very large number of assumptions with seemingly no back up. Again.......If you've something substantive to add to add meat to your points, please provide it.

The Pope is in fact the Leader of the Catholic Church. Here is your proof.

The Pope (from Latin: papa; from Greek: πάππας (pappas),[1] a child's word for father)[2] is the Bishop of Rome, a position that makes him the leader of the worldwide Catholic Church

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope

irishh_bob

Manach wrote: »

1- The status of the Vatican according the text, "Handbook of International Law" - it is that of a state.
2- Besides domestic considerations, we Catholics make up a fair number of adherents. To tap into that worldwide community via the Vatican might be considered a good investment.

catholics can still tap the wordwide community of catholics , ever heard of facebook or the internet in general , the embassy is a facility for officaldom within diplomatic circles , the church ( people ) never had access to such channells so why would they miss them , as i said , they can network through the internet

Spacedog

Min wrote: »

The problem for FG is they know the people know the ambassador to the Holy See was removed not for financial reasons as the lies told by Eamon Gilmore. Eamon Gilmore removed the ambassador out of Rome because he is a fanatical atheist who has come from a communist background in the workers party. A party that had looked for aid from the Soviet Union, East Germany, China and even North Korea.
Back in the late 1970's Eamon Gilmore was busy taking the union of Students in Ireland to the communist world festival of youth and students.
Sure only a few years later the communists tried to kill the Pope. It is no coincidence that Gilmore is going on about the BRIC nations given he has good contacts in Russia and China going back to his Workers party days.

I think some in FG are finally starting to see who they actually got into bed with.
The deluded Eamon Gilmore for Taoiseach, Frankfurt's way or Labour's way.
It is time for FG to show some backbone and take this issue to Gilmore, who had only chose to tell lies on why the embassy was closed.

Yeah, it's the communists!!!, and I guess the priests f**kin kids had nothing to do with it? They were probably communist priests from the KGB out to discredit the church eh? Were through the looking glass here people.

Manach

Ah yes the Internet - that the device that allows people to become instant experts on diverse subjects via a "Search" function without the need to read books and/or get an education.

irishh_bob

Manach wrote: »

Ah yes the Internet - that the device that allows people to become instant experts on diverse subjects via a "Search" function without the need to read books and/or get an education.

you stated that due to the embassy being closed ,catholics would no longer have a means of communicating with thier global bretheren , i pointed to the fact that the embassys were only ever used by clerics and politicans and in an offical diplomatic capacity , if your concerns and requirements are practical based , facebook should be more usefull to lay catholicis when it comes to speaking to fellow catholics in brazil , usa , philippines than the embassy in the vatican

i happen to think that all this talk of listening posts is a smokescreen , in reality , a minority of staunch religous catholics are up in arms because they feel thier priveledge is slipping in the state

CDfm

irishh_bob wrote: »

i happen to think that all this talk of listening posts is a smokescreen , in reality , a minority of staunch religous catholics are up in arms because they feel thier priveledge is slipping in the state

Don't you think it a little bit strange that in the links that I posted and especially the photo's the lenghts these politicians are going to to be perceived as devout catholic by their supporters.

The politicians are supplying the PR image locally and this is not the international stage they are on but national & local.

* Doffs hat to Tip O'Neill*

Manach

irishh_bob wrote: »

you stated that due to the embassy being closed ,catholics would no longer have a means of communicating with thier global bretheren , i pointed to the fact that the embassys were only ever used by clerics and politicans and in an offical diplomatic capacity , if your concerns and requirements are practical based , facebook should be more usefull to lay catholicis when it comes to speaking to fellow catholics in brazil , usa , philippines than the embassy in the vatican

i happen to think that all this talk of listening posts is a smokescreen , in reality , a minority of staunch religous catholics are up in arms because they feel thier priveledge is slipping in the state

I am aware and am part of the global Catholic online community. However, at an official level, where the State apparatus is involved, is where a facebook present is hardly appropriate. Then again, if Ireland could reduce expenses by setting up facebook page per country all well and good. But, AFAIR based on the text "Diplomacy" by the Sir Harold Nicholson, Diplomacy is a nuanced world within a world, with their own language and etiquette which relies heavily on interpersonal meetings and a shared understanding of the world. This is something the internet can not replace.

Min

Spacedog wrote: »

Yeah, it's the communists!!!, and I guess the priests f**kin kids had nothing to do with it? They were probably communist priests from the KGB out to discredit the church eh? Were through the looking glass here people.

According to the liar that is Eamon Gilmore, it had nothing to do with the child abuse scandal.

Min

kraggy wrote: »

Why should we have an embassy to a "State" whose existence is solely related to a particular religion?

Should we have diplomatic buildings and extra embassy staff in a specially provided consulate in Mecca, Saudi Arabia?

How about extra ambassadorial staff in a special little buliding beside the Watchtower building in New York?

Good riddance to what has always been an unnecessary set-up.

Is Mecca now not a part of the state of Saudi Arabia?

Vatican city does not belong to the Italian state, this was decided under the Lateran treaty which gave full sovereignty to the Holy See.

irishh_bob

Manach wrote: »

I am aware and am part of the global Catholic online community. However, at an official level, where the State apparatus is involved, is where a facebook present is hardly appropriate. Then again, if Ireland could reduce expenses by setting up facebook page per country all well and good. But, AFAIR based on the text "Diplomacy" by the Sir Harold Nicholson, Diplomacy is a nuanced world within a world, with their own language and etiquette which relies heavily on interpersonal meetings and a shared understanding of the world. This is something the internet can not replace.

diplomatic relations between ireland and the vatican are purely tokenistic and ceremonial , thier are no hard political or economic issues discussed and even they are discusses , the vatican has no influence in theese areas , some people might like to think that religon is the most important thing in the world to people and politicans alike but it isnt

CDfm

Min wrote: »

According to the liar that is Eamon Gilmore, it had nothing to do with the child abuse scandal.

Would this not normally be a Cabinet decision not an individual ministers decision ? i.e. the decision to close an embassy is national policy

Has it been put to the vote and if so what was the split ?

Manach wrote: »

. Then again, if Ireland could reduce expenses by setting up facebook page per country all well and good. But, AFAIR based on the text "Diplomacy" by the Sir Harold Nicholson, Diplomacy is a nuanced world within a world, with their own language and etiquette which relies heavily on interpersonal meetings and a shared understanding of the world. This is something the internet can not replace.

What do you make about how politicians are demonstrating/communicating this to their supporters.

They seem to be on the offensive.

Nodin

Min wrote: »

Is Mecca now not a part of the state of Saudi Arabia?

......

...actually the whole thing is a bit of a red herring, as Mecca is a holy site, not the HQ of Islam, or home of some head figure.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

The Pope is in fact the Leader of the Catholic Church. Here is your proof.

Hilarious. I note you've still provided nothing to back up your assertions visa vis Labour, FG etc.

CDFM wrote:

Don't you think it a little bit strange that in the links that I posted and especially the photo's the lenghts these politicians are going to to be perceived as devout catholic by their supporters.

As pointed out earlier, Michael D is now essentially an apolitical figure, and will doubtless be turning up at Church of Ireland, Orthodox and whatever else functions its deemed appropriate to his office in pursuit of his duties.

I still await any concrete linkage - indeed any linkage at all - from you concering Michael D Higgins and the issue of the Embassy closure.

Manach wrote:

Diplomacy is a nuanced world within a world, with their own language and etiquette which relies heavily on interpersonal meetings and a shared understanding of the world. This is something the internet can not replace.

...which is why we have embassies around the world. The vatican is not the influence it was, nor is it remotely sensible to indulge its notions of grandeur with regards to having a seperate ambassador to Italy given the straits we find ourselves in.

Min wrote:

Vatican city does not belong to the Italian state, this was decided under the Lateran treaty which gave full sovereignty to the Holy See.

Earlier you claimed we had "three ambassadors in Brussels, two in Switzerland, can't remember was it two or three in the USA". Have you found any information to back this up? It seems to be in error.

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

Hilarious. I note you've still provided nothing to back up your assertions visa vis Labour, FG etc.



As pointed out earlier, Michael D is now essentially an apolitical figure, and will doubtless be turning up at Church of Ireland, Orthodox and whatever else functions its deemed appropriate to his office in pursuit of his duties.

I still await any concrete linkage - indeed any linkage at all - from you concering Michael D Higgins and the issue of the Embassy closure.

Its an alright thread isn't it.

Lots of media links to politicians and their local and national profiles.

The thread isn't about me but about the links and articles I came across on local and national politicians media profiles and catholic profiles.

Has President Higgins had an invite to the Eucharistic Congress ? Will he attend ?

Lots of them seem to be boosting their catholic credentials.

A huge surprise for me by the way and an accidental discovery.

President Michael D Higgins visits Catholic Youth Care

Today (Thursday 26th January) President Michael D Higgins visited the Catholic Youth Care Head Office, following an invitation issued by the organisation in November.

Catholic Youth Care (CYC) is the youth services agency of the Archdiocese of Dublin. CYC provides direct youth work services and also support for voluntary youth work in Dublin, Wicklow and parts of county Kildare.

Father Jim Caffrey, Director of Catholic Youth Care said, “We invited the President to visit our head office here in Arran Quay. The President passes by our office regularly in the course of his duties and we were delighted when he accepted our invitation.”

“We realise the many demands placed on the President’s time in the early stages of his presidency and are delighted that he has taken time out of his busy schedule to visit us. Visits like this are such wonderful occasions and help to boost the spirit of the organisation at the start of what is likely to be a challenging year for many.”

A press shot more pics here

http://www.dublindiocese.ie/image-gallery/president-michael-d-higgins-visits-catholic-youth-care

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

Its an alright thread isn't it.

Lots of media links to politicians (.......)discovery.

You made a series of very specific claims. You have failed thus far to back them up. You haven't even shown that the attendance of religous services by the Taoiseach is anything new.

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

You made a series of very specific claims. You have failed thus far to back them up. You haven't even shown that the attendance of religous services by the Taoiseach is anything new.

Claims me ?

I posted lots of links and pics that are more substantial than any comments I made.

Gilmore's 'not an inch on Vatican' sparks crisis

Rosary beads at FG meeting as Noonan says 'Enda is a better Catholic than me'


By DANIEL McCONNELL Chief Reporter and jOHN DRENNAN

Sunday February 05 2012

THE Government has been plunged into its first crisis after Tanaiste Eamon Gilmore yesterday categorically rejected Fine Gael calls to reverse the decision to close the Irish embassy to the Vatican.
The astonishing row over the Vatican embassy comes on the heels of a series of spats between the coalition over cuts in the Budget, which have led to a significant deterioration of relations between FG and Labour in recent weeks.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gilmores-not-an-inch-on-vatican-sparks-crisis-3010353.html

I am not a member of any party and I don't attend any church but this is some headline.

Rosary beads at FG meeting as Noonan says 'Enda is a better Catholic than me'

Manach

irishh_bob wrote: »

diplomatic relations between ireland and the vatican are purely tokenistic and ceremonial , thier are no hard political or economic issues discussed and even they are discusses , the vatican has no influence in theese areas , some people might like to think that religon is the most important thing in the world to people and politicans alike but it isnt

Personally I reckon people tend to underrate that which they do not understand. In my case, that's Jedward. In Stalin's case, that was the Church - asking "How Many Divisions does the Pope of Rome Have?". What the Vatican does have is soft power which has lasted longer than the USSR. I lack irishh_bob's insight into the Irish diplomatic service and their procedures - but as there are many diplomatic missions present at the Vatican, and the opportunity to network within such a small environment is unparallelled.
As for influence, according to a recent speech by US Senator McConnell, Catholic charities provide services for 1/6 of patients. This represents economic activity which Irish diplomats might find of interest and represents a return on investment as measurable as various county council trade missions abroad.

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

Claims me ?

I posted lots of links and pics that are more substantial than any comments I made.

Yes, you.

Explain what the link is supposed to be between Michael D and the vatican embassy etc. Whats the point of highlighting his attendance at religous events/ceremonies?

Explain what the significance of Enda's mass attendance is supposed to be.

Give some basis and flesh out your claim that " the leadership & government are out of step with the rank and file of their respective parties ".

CDfm

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, you.

I am honoured that you think I control the presidential diary.

Explain what the link is supposed to be between Michael D and the vatican embassy etc. Whats the point of highlighting his attendance at religous events/ceremonies?

It is/was part of his public image with the voters.

Part of the Eucharistic Congress takes part in the Phoenix Park where he lives.

Explain what the significance of Enda's mass attendance is supposed to be.

Give some basis and flesh out your claim that " the leadership & government are out of step with the rank and file of their respective parties ".

It is his public profile and it has come to national prominence in recent months.

Its mad that all these religious references are surfacing.

Why is it happening ?

The two biggest partners seem to be eyeing up for an election. Their PR is how they connect with voters.

Maybe Labour needs some fresh protest campaign's , how 'bout

"Keep your Sacrament from our President" or "Keep your Rosary away from our Embassy"

Nodin

CDfm wrote: »

I am honoured that you think I control the presidential diary.

It is/was part of his public image with the voters.

When did Michael D Higgins bring either religion in general or the church into the election?

What "is/was" part of his "public image" with the Voters?

CDfm wrote: »

It is his public profile and it has come to national prominence in recent months.

Its mad that all these religious references are surfacing.

There's absolutely nothing new or "mad" about it. Enda condemned the Vatican on 20th July 2011 . Gilmore announced the Embassy closure on 4th November 2011.

Yet here we are
Enda at Lenihans funeral - 14th June 2011
http://www.passedaway.com/in_the_news/hundreds_attend_funeral_of_former_irish_minister/554/

Enda at Funeral mass of RUC man April 5th, 2011
http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/IPg9_fyks_m/Funeral+Takes+Place+Police+Constable+Ronan/7XDo9hBGkVo/Martin+McGuinness

Enda at 1916 Service May 5th 2011
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0504/rising.html

...and so on.

I'd say the only thing "surfacing" is your interest in whether or not enda kenny attends religous services.

CDfm wrote: »

"Keep your Sacrament from our President" or "Keep your Rosary away from our Embassy"

Whats that to do with anything? Why would Michael D need a campaign on his behalf I have to say that its very difficult to know what you're trying to say here.