Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Seached by the cops last night

245

Comments

  • #32
    almighty1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭almighty1


    Answer to OP. The Road Traffic Act does make provision for the Gardaí to ask you for your name and address in order to identify you as the driver of the car etc.

    Transcript from Road Traffic Act 2010
    79.— The following section is substituted for section 107 of the Principal Act:


    “107.— (1) Where a member of the Garda Síochána alleges to a person using a mechanically propelled vehicle that the member suspects that such person has committed a specified offence under this Act, the member may demand of such person his or her name and address and date of birth and may, if such person refuses or fails to give his or her name and address or date of birth or gives a name or address or date of birth which the member has reasonable grounds for believing to be false or misleading, arrest such person without warrant.


  • #33
    Ayla
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Ayla


    almighty1 wrote: »
    Answer to OP. The Road Traffic Act does make provision for the Gardaí to ask you for your name and address in order to identify you as the driver of the car etc.

    The OP was not the driver of the car in this case


  • #34
    almighty1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭almighty1


    Ayla wrote: »
    The OP was not the driver of the car in this case

    Misread. So.......The Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994, section 24 entitles a garda to demand name and address where they reasonably suspect that that a person has committed an offence. A failure to comply is an arrestable offence.


  • #35
    Ayla
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Ayla


    Ok, fair enough.

    The next obvious question then is whether the guarda has to explain their suspicion or if they can do it "just because." Do they have to say "i believe you did x/y/z and thus I require your information" or can they keep their suspicions to themselves until the person is already in custody for violation of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994, section 24?

    In asking this, I'm referencing my first query on this thread re: the random roadchecks. I'm driving down the road with two young kids in the backseat, my NCT/license/motor tax is up to date, they have no reason to be asking for my info. Am I within my rights to refuse (foolhearted as it may wind up being?)


  • #36
    almighty1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭almighty1


    Ayla wrote: »
    Ok, fair enough.

    The next obvious question then is whether the guarda has to explain their suspicion or if they can do it "just because." Do they have to say "i believe you did x/y/z and thus I require your information" or can they keep their suspicions to themselves until the person is already in custody for violation of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994, section 24?

    In this particular case I dont really care. He acted suspiciously and was withholding information, coupled with a bad attitude.

    On a broader scale maybe download the Act and have a read through it yourself.


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,495 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    benway wrote: »
    No obligation to carry ID, and you can refuse to answer any questions, or insist that the Garda outlines the basis on which you are being questioned before answering. Of course, this is likely to lead to a disproportionate, power-crazed response, possibly involving an arrest.

    All of which reminds me of a story a well-known SC told me about a retired HC judge getting blootered at some Inns function and opening his after dinner speech with, "Jesus Christ, I hate Guards. I'd there's one bunch of cnuts I hate, it's Guards". Apocryphal, maybe ... but it's a good story.

    Who ARE you?
    Who ARE you?


  • #38
    Ayla
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Ayla


    Out of fairness to the OP, his original post didn't really seem full of attitude to me (the attitude all came through later):
    Was pulled over last night (gf was driving), they asked her for her license which she provided. Came to the passenger side and asked me for ID, I politely asked them why they needed to see my ID...they got in a huff and dragged me out of the car and body searched me under the misuse of drugs act. They asked me where I'd just come from and I told them I'd just left a friends house (true), they asked me where and I told them the name of the estate. They asked which house number and I said I didn't know. This was the honest truth

    If we read this on face value (which is all we really have) and we hypothetically accept that this was indeed what actually happened, I would imagine he was as within his rights to withhold his info as I would be if I was searched in a roadblock.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't like the attitude that's come through the rest of the thread any more than anyone else, but I am actually interested in the legalities of this issue as it could actually happen to me at some point.


  • #39
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    BhoscaCapall wrote: »
    Was pulled over last night (gf was driving), they asked her for her license which she provided. Came to the passenger side and asked me for ID, I politely asked them why they needed to see my ID, because I wasn't aware we lived in a country where citizens must carry ID at all times and produce it on demand (I didn't say this part, I just asked why), they got in a huff and dragged me out of the car and body searched me under the misuse of drugs act. They asked me where I'd just come from and I told them I'd just left a friends house (true), they asked me where and I told them the name of the estate. They asked which house number and I said I didn't know. This was the honest truth; I know which house it is but I do not know the house number, the same is true for many of my friend's houses. Not as if I send them letters or anything. The guards got in another huff about this and acted like it was massively suspicious that I didn't know the number. They grilled me for a bit and (i think) raided the house I'd come from. As expected, it was all a massive waste of everyone's time and they gave me my passport back and went off to waste someone else's, without so much as an apology for the hassle.

    Just wondering if everything they did was by the book. Did I have to show them ID (what if I didn't have any on me? Only reason I did was because it was in my jeans from the night before. Do I even have to tell them where I was coming from (the exact address and all)?


    probably just a few morons who watched dirty harry on dvd the night before and felt like whaling on an easy target , pity thier not so eager to bash skulls around anglo irish hq


  • #40
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    MagicSean wrote: »
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1977/en/act/pub/0012/sec0023.html#sec23

    If you feel you were treated unfairly then you should make a complaint to the Ombudsman. Nobody on this forum knows you or your girlfriend or your friends where you came from so it's impossible to know if they acted correctly.

    the OP can complain to the ombudsman but it would be about as productive as praying to god that ireland wins euro 2012


  • #41
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    kc66 wrote: »
    Why should they apologise? They are just trying to do their job and catch the bad guys! Criminals don't all look the same.

    you think guards spend all thier time trying to catch bad guys :rolleyes: , i envy your innocence


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    benway wrote: »
    No obligation to carry ID, and you can refuse to answer any questions, or insist that the Garda outlines the basis on which you are being questioned before answering. Of course, this is likely to lead to a disproportionate, power-crazed response, possibly involving an arrest.

    All of which reminds me of a story a well-known SC told me about a retired HC judge getting blootered at some Inns function and opening his after dinner speech with, "Jesus Christ, I hate Guards. I'd there's one bunch of cnuts I hate, it's Guards". Apocryphal, maybe ... but it's a good story.

    Great story. I'm sure every Garda in the country is devastated.
    Ayla wrote: »
    Ok, fair enough.

    The next obvious question then is whether the guarda has to explain their suspicion or if they can do it "just because." Do they have to say "i believe you did x/y/z and thus I require your information" or can they keep their suspicions to themselves until the person is already in custody for violation of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994, section 24?

    They do not need to explain their suspicion to you. They need only make the demand.
    Ayla wrote: »
    In asking this, I'm referencing my first query on this thread re: the random roadchecks. I'm driving down the road with two young kids in the backseat, my NCT/license/motor tax is up to date, they have no reason to be asking for my info. Am I within my rights to refuse (foolhearted as it may wind up being?)

    In relation to road traffic matters your name, address and date of birth can be demanded. Your licence can also be demanded.


  • #43
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,560 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    benway wrote: »
    But they MUST have reasonable cause, and it would be helpful for a potential complaint or proceedings if they had happened to give any indication.

    Personally I think, this:



    Tells it all. The boys in blue obviously thought they'd take this uppidy ballix down a peg, and sure if they found drugs in the process, so much the better.

    Let's be clear on this, Garda powers represent a derogation from our personal rights, and should be strictly limited and only applied when absolutely necessary and justified. OP's "responsibilities" don't come in to play here, only those of the Gardaí not to conduct frivolous, time-wasting searches.

    So all they wanted was to take someone down a peg ? Then why would they search the house he left. Think before you post.


  • #44
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    irishh_bob wrote: »
    probably just a few morons who watched dirty harry on dvd the night before and felt like whaling on an easy target , pity thier not so eager to bash skulls around anglo irish hq
    irishh_bob wrote: »
    the OP can complain to the ombudsman but it would be about as productive as praying to god that ireland wins euro 2012
    irishh_bob wrote: »
    you think guards spend all thier time trying to catch bad guys :rolleyes: , i envy your innocence

    That's an awfully big chip you've got there.


  • #45
    10kdays
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47 ✭10kdays


    This thread makes embarrassing reading. Are we not all equal in the eyes of the law?

    If jesus was a passenger in a car; no tail lights out, no erratic driving etc, and the guards pull the car over:

    Does Jesus have to show id if asked or even give his name and address verbally?

    Do the Guards have to explain the reason for pulling the vehicle over?

    Can the Guards ask details of the passengers previous and next places of stay?

    If Jesus refuses to give any information what so ever and the guards have not seen anything suspicious does Jesus even have to get out of the vehicle?

    I do not want to hear about manners, politeness, or how to keep the Guards on-side. I want to know what jesus would HAVE to do and what the Guards could legally do.


  • #46
    BhoscaCapall
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭BhoscaCapall


    almighty1 wrote: »
    In this particular case I dont really care.
    Don't post in the thread then.
    He acted suspiciously
    Suspicious as in I left a house that the police erroneously thought was some massive crack house. I shouldn't have to have my time wasted because of their crap intel.
    and was withholding information
    Did not withhold any information
    coupled with a bad attitude.
    I politely, and lawfully questioned their demands. I provided them with all the information I was able to offer. What part of that displays a bad attitude? Blind obedience with disregard for human rights is a worse attitude, in my opinion.
    Ayla wrote: »
    Out of fairness to the OP, his original post didn't really seem full of attitude to me (the attitude all came through later):

    Don't get me wrong, I don't like the attitude that's come through the rest of the thread any more than anyone else, but I am actually interested in the legalities of this issue as it could actually happen to me at some point.
    My 'attitude' has merely been a response to the false accusations and attacks on my character. Like I said, I was polite to the officers. They can be grade A w***ers at the best of times, no sense in being rude to them.
    MagicSean wrote: »
    That's an awfully big chip you've got there.
    And that's an awfully big hard-on for the 'boys in blue' you have.


  • #47
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    benway wrote: »
    Seems some people believe that the Gardaí can do no wrong. Then again there are those ... like myself ... who think that they do very little right.

    There's no obligation on a citizen to be "helpful" to the Gardaí, it's up to them to justify their imposition on a citizen and encroachment on his/her rights.

    the only people who think guards can do no wrong and who,s actions are at all times righteous , are those who never had any dealings with them , some of us were of the same mindset at one time but learned the hard way


  • #48
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,560 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    10kdays wrote: »
    This thread makes embarrassing reading. Are we not all equal in the eyes of the law?

    If jesus was a passenger in a car; no tail lights out, no erratic driving etc, and the guards pull the car over:

    Does Jesus have to show id if asked or even give his name and address verbally?

    Do the Guards have to explain the reason for pulling the vehicle over?

    Can the Guards ask details of the passengers previous and next places of stay?

    If Jesus refuses to give any information what so ever and the guards have not seen anything suspicious does Jesus even have to get out of the vehicle?

    I do not want to hear about manners, politeness, or how to keep the Guards on-side. I want to know what jesus would HAVE to do and what the Guards could legally do.

    Hosanna in the Hi-ace ?


  • #49
    10kdays
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47 ✭10kdays


    So they don't have to tell the driver / passenger what the suspicion is? Do they have to answer yes or no whether they have one?
    MagicSean wrote: »
    They do not need to explain their suspicion to you. They need only make the demand.

    In relation to road traffic matters your name, address and date of birth can be demanded. Your licence can also be demanded.


  • #50
    benway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    @Mr. Presentable Who are YOU?
    almighty1 wrote:
    The Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994, section 24 entitles a garda to demand name and address where they reasonably suspect that that a person has committed an offence.

    ... under sections 4 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 11 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 or 19 of that Act, not just any offense.

    You are certainly entitled to know on what basis you are being searched in terms of the particular legislation or any exact offences that you were supposedly suspected of committing, and I would also ask about the basis for any "reasonable cause", although you would not strictly be entitled to that information.

    It's important to remember that it's not a thing that the Gardaí have a right to question citizens or see ID, it's that particular legislation sets out specific derogations from the citizen's basic right to privacy and to be left to his/her own business, in specific circumstances.


  • #51
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    benway wrote: »
    No obligation to carry ID, and you can refuse to answer any questions, or insist that the Garda outlines the basis on which you are being questioned before answering. Of course, this is likely to lead to a disproportionate, power-crazed response, possibly involving an arrest.

    All of which reminds me of a story a well-known SC told me about a retired HC judge getting blootered at some Inns function and opening his after dinner speech with, "Jesus Christ, I hate Guards. I'd there's one bunch of cnuts I hate, it's Guards". Apocryphal, maybe ... but it's a good story.

    how often do you think a petulant rank and file (who had his ego bruised by some less than sufficently flattering motorist ) will be allowed bring some random citizen to the local station before his sgt superior roasts his arse for wasting police time and resources , real offenses are often tossed ( due to lack of evidence ) let alone trumped up charges of refusing to co- opperate


  • Advertisement
  • #52
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    almighty1 wrote: »
    In this particular case I dont really care. He acted suspiciously and was withholding information, coupled with a bad attitude.

    On a broader scale maybe download the Act and have a read through it yourself.

    do you think a bad attitude is an arrestable offense , see my post above , a guard will soon begin to grate on the nerves of his superiors if he persistently hauls people in for not being daniel o donnell


  • #53
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 597 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There are two types of people in this world. Those who have nothing to hide, happy to help the cops (in this situation) so that they may get on and protect them. Then those that have past dealings and/or have something to hide.


  • #54
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    MagicSean wrote: »
    That's an awfully big chip you've got there.

    i love amateur psychologists , thier so generous with thier time


  • #55
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 597 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    irishh_bob wrote: »
    i love amateur psychologists , thier so generous with thier time

    Pity your English teacher wasn't quite so generous!!
    :-)


  • #56
    Ayla
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Ayla


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There are two types of people in this world. Those who have nothing to hide, happy to help the cops (in this situation) so that they may get on and protect them. Then those that have past dealings and/or have something to hide.

    That's not true....I have absolutely nothing to hide & as I mentioned previously I am quite content to sacrifice a bit for the greater good, but I resent having to share my private life with someone just because they wear a badge & demand my info without justifiable cause.


  • #57
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There are two types of people in this world. Those who have nothing to hide, happy to help the cops (in this situation) so that they may get on and protect them. Then those that have past dealings and/or have something to hide.

    simplistic , presumptous and naieve in equal measure


  • #58
    benway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There are two types of people in this world. Those who have nothing to hide, happy to help the cops (in this situation) so that they may get on and protect them. Then those that have past dealings and/or have something to hide.
    Ever heard of Frank McBrearty, Frank Shortt, Nicky Kelly, Birmingham 6, Guildford 4, etc., etc?


  • #59
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Pity your English teacher wasn't quite so generous!!
    :-)

    i see the grammar patrol has arrived


  • #60
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    benway wrote: »
    Ever heard of Frank McBrearty, Frank Shortt, Nicky Kelly, Birmingham 6, Guildford 4, etc., etc?

    geeby probably believed that iraq had WMD,s aswell , cant help but wonder what its like to live in a world where power never acts innapropriatley


  • Advertisement
  • #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 597 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ayla wrote: »
    That's not true....I have absolutely nothing to hide & as I mentioned previously I am quite content to sacrifice a bit for the greater good, but I resent having to share my private life with someone just because they wear a badge & demand my info without justifiable cause.

    Well do you think they are honestly going to tell you that they have a house under surveillance? Or that a local burglar drives the same car? Justifiable to whom? You or a court? Who decides if it is justifiable?


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement