Seached by the cops last night

deadwood

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

"Hi there, my name is Garda ____ and I need to search you under the Misuse of Drugs Act, could step out of the vehicle please"

You'll usually be treated with the same level/lack of courtesy you show them.Same as any profession. There are exceptions, naturally - the same as there are in the general population.

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

They can't even play the "for the greater good" card, because they are the DS and they do nothing but endanger the lives of millions of people by enforcing their nonsense legislation.

Can you expand on this?

MagicSean

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

I don't really know anything about the house search, I haven't spoken to the guys who live there since I left last night. Given their utter incompetence, I would hope for their sake that they aren't actually a specialised drug unit.

Before leaving, and presumably in place of an apology, they warned me not to go back to the house lest I be harassed again for not committing any crimes.

Makes me wonder how evil drug dealers must be, if this is the state of the 'good guys' :rolleyes:

So when you say they got the wrong house you have no idea if that's true. You have no idea if the stop is anything to do with drugs or your friends. It could be any crime they were investigating.

And the incompetence you refer to, is this the bad manners or is there something you left out of your story?

Corruptable

MagicSean wrote: »

You'd be better off comparing it to Coppers. It's much more realistic than Road Wars.

That's true, I've saw it a couple of times and look forward to seeing it more. However, my own experiences in the UK would make me feel that there is a more professional attitude from a lot of the cops over there in comparison to the attitude of a significant minority over here.

There is no doubt that some gardai do overstep their legal authority regularly, and the net result of that is a lowered respect for the force in it's entirety among the whole public. I've thankfully never had a bad experience with gardai, in fact I've had many good experiences and always give credit where credit is due, knowing the local Superintendent and Inspector, and ensure that it is noted.

As for the OP's issue, the Garda Siochana Ombudsman Commission is the only external mechanism available for a complaint, other than taking a civil case through the courts, but you'd need to have significant evidence to even get there.

As has been noted, your initial attitude counts for a lot in these encounters as well. Respect is the key, and generally it's reciprocated.

benway

deadwood wrote: »

You'll usually be treated with the same level/lack of courtesy you show them.Same as any profession. There are exceptions, naturally - the same as there are in the general population.

Don't necessarily agree with that - obviously it'd be unfair to tar the whole force with one brush, but my experience has been that there tends to be a certain arrogance associated with the Gardaí, especially with younger male members. Which turns obnoxious if they get a whiff that Joe Citizen isn't overawed by their power and majesty.

More fundamentally, most professions don't come invading your privacy and compromising your personal rights, I think we're entitled to expect a high standard of courtesy and professionalism from them, more so than any other occupation.

MagicSean

benway wrote: »

Ah here, don't be so touchy. SC is a colleague, not exactly a friend, and it is a true story in so far as I'm aware - it's certainly what he told me more or less verbatim.

I think anyone who's spent enough time around the Courts will have seen enough botched prosecutions and investigations to have a certain ... circumspection ... towards the Gardaí, can imagine what 20 years on the bench would have done to you. I thought it was a good story ... and tbh I still do.

Back on topic, it's not semantics, it's a fundamental separation of powers point - this is legal discussion, is it not? A Garda doesn't have the authority to order me to do much - where I refuse, it's up to the Court to back the request with a sanction.

And I have seen some stupid judgements and some ridiculous legal arguments but I don't judge all judges and solicitors based on those.

deadwood wrote: »

Can you expand on this?

Some people believe that the law on drugs forces people to buy from drug dealers and fund criminal activity. They believe that Gardaí who enforce these laws are responsable.

They seem to look over the fact that Gardaí do not decide what laws to enforce nor do they enact them. It is the legislature that makes the law.

They also overlook the fact that there is no necessity to buy drugs from a dealer. It is a recreative substance that can easily be done without. Blaming the Gardaí and legislature is a way of easing their conscience when they realise they have just put money in a killers hand.

BhoscaCapall

deadwood wrote: »

You'll usually be treated with the same level/lack of courtesy you show them.Same as any profession. There are exceptions, naturally - the same as there are in the general population.

Asking why I was being demanded to show ID (a just question) is not a lack of courtesy. Since it was them wasting my time, they are the ones who should have shown the courtesy of explaining to me and generally not being dicks.

Can you expand on this?

I don't want to drag this off-topic (we've already had about 50 posts addressing a question I never even asked) but I would imagine that anyone who wants to use drugs recreationally would be safer buying them from controlled outlets rather than being forced into the criminal underworld, where they are more likely to have to interact and be influenced by scumbags, and more likely to end up using product that has been 'cut' or treated. If someone wants to smoke a joint at home with their mates, that is absolutely none of my business because it affects me in no way whatsoever. If someone enjoys the heightened feelings of happiness and empathy and appreciate of sound and music by taking MDMA on a night-out, again, I don't care because it does not effect me.

Outlawing these lifestyle-choices directly increases the number of criminals in my area. That effects me.

BhoscaCapall

MagicSean wrote: »

And the incompetence you refer to, is this the bad manners or is there something you left out of your story?

Police officers not acting within the limits of their authority and respecting my rights is a sign of incompetence IMO. Also the fact they searched the wrong person, and the wrong house. That is unless my friends lead a double-life and have kilos of coke stashed under the sofa that they've never mentioned, and since you seem rather desperate that there is 'more to the story', maybe we can pretend that is the case?

MagicSean wrote: »

They seem to look over the fact that Gardaí do not decide what laws to enforce nor do they enact them. It is the legislature that makes the law.

People choose to join the guards. They choose to enforce said legislature. That excuse is straight out of the "but soldiers are just following orders" book of bulls***.

they have just put money in a killers hand.

Bahahahaha :pac: and here's me just getting over the fact that the dodgy VHS copy of Wrestlemania 99 my mate gave me directly contributed to global terrorism :pac:

Corruptable

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Asking why I was being demanded to show ID (a just question) is not a lack of courtesy. Since it was them wasting my time, they are the ones who should have shown the courtesy of explaining to me and generally not being dicks.

It's generally accepted that they have a right to demand your name and address in a range of situations, and so generally ID is verification of your nae and/or address.

I was once in your exact situation, and politely explained I didn't have any identification with me, but volunteered my name and where I was from and this sufficed as it was clear that they were seeking someone else who I may have fitted the description of given the time of night that I was walking home at after a shift at a previous job.

Whether one makes to join or not is irrelevant. Officially, gardai have a common law duty to investigate all reported criminal offences (per DPP v Bartley 1997, and prior to that R v Dyntham ).

Procrastastudy

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

For those who think the Guards were in the wrong, based purely on the info the OP has given, ie. house he had just left was about to be raided for whatever reason, can you talk us through how you think the Guards should have dealt with him?

Manners cost nothing. What they did however - no problem.

benway

MagicSean wrote: »

And I have seen some stupid judgements and some ridiculous legal arguments but I don't judge all judges and solicitors based on those.

Good, now that we're all friends again, I suppose I'll overlook the fact that you're just plain wrong about the "it's an order" point.

@Corruptable, Gardaí don't have "rights" as against the citizenry. Legislation provides for certain derogations from citizens' rights to facilitate the executive, in this case the Gardaí, in the performance of specific tasks in specific instances.

I do think that it's kinda telling that people are keen to attribute powers to the Gardaí that they just don't have (see also almighty1 on The Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 earlier in the thread) ... kinda treating them as infallible and all-powerful.

Dangerous game, that.

Apologies to OP for the massive thread meander.

MagicSean

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

I don't want to drag this off-topic (we've already had about 50 posts addressing a question I never even asked) but I would imagine that anyone who wants to use drugs recreationally would be safer buying them from controlled outlets rather than being forced into the criminal underworld, where they are more likely to have to interact and be influenced by scumbags, and more likely to end up using product that has been 'cut' or treated.

Nobody is forced to buy drugs from dealers. It's not an item critical to life in any way. It's a choice.

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Police officers not acting within the limits of their authority and respecting my rights is a sign of incompetence IMO. Also the fact they searched the wrong person, and the wrong house. That is unless my friends lead a double-life and have kilos of coke stashed under the sofa that they've never mentioned, and since you seem rather desperate that there is 'more to the story', maybe we can pretend that is the case?

So you think their intel being wrong makes them incompetent? Thank you, that's a bit clearer.

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

People choose to join the guards. They choose to enforce said legislature. That excuse is straight out of the "but soldiers are just following orders" book of bulls***.

So is your solution that nobody should join the Gardaí or that Gardaí should have the choice as to what legislation they enforce?

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Bahahahaha :pac: and here's me just getting over the fact that the dodgy VHS copy of Wrestlemania 99 my mate gave me directly contributed to global terrorism :pac:

You don't think the money from drug dealin contributes to gang murders now?

benway wrote: »

Good, now that we're all friends again, I suppose I'll overlook the fact that you're just plain wrong about the "it's an order" point.

This is getting tiresome. I said the word demand. The poster wanted this clarified. I used a synonym for the word demand.

Corruptable

benway wrote: »

Good, now that we're all friends again, I suppose I'll overlook the fact that you're just plain wrong about the "it's an order" point.

@Corruptable, Gardaí don't have "rights" as against the citizenry. Legislation provides for certain derogations from citizens' rights to facilitate the executive, in this case the Gardaí, in the performance of specific tasks in specific instances.

I do think that it's kinda telling that people are keen to attribute powers to the Gardaí that they just don't have (see also almighty1 on The Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 earlier in the thread) ... kinda treating them as infallible and all-powerful.

Dangerous game, that.

Apologies to OP for the massive thread meander.

Normally they're described as "powers" as opposed to rights, but in theory, it sounds like your analyse is correct.

I'm not completely familiar with the Public Order Act 1994-2003, but it's noted that certain powers under it only apply with respect to issues arising under specific sections of that particular Act. But in terms of the identification/name and address issue, even the ICCL wasn't bothered going through all the various circumstances which require you to provide the details.

BhoscaCapall

MagicSean wrote: »

Nobody is forced to buy drugs from dealers. It's not an item critical to life in any way. It's a choice.

Buying drugs from criminals is not a choice, as it is the only option thanks to said legislation.

So is your solution that nobody should join the Gardaí or that Gardaí should have the choice as to what legislation they enforce?

I didn't offer a solution, I said I hold the people who choose to enforce it responsible.

You don't think the money from drug dealin contributes to gang murders now?

I believe I have already quite clearly outlined this as a problem and something I would like prevented.

Corruptable

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Buying drugs from criminals is not a choice, as it is the only option thanks to said legislation.


I didn't offer a solution, I said I hold the people who choose to enforce it responsible.


I believe I have already quite clearly outlined this as a problem and something I would like prevented.

Don't buy drugs then, is Sean's point. Did you miss the bit in primary school where they covered "wants" and "needs"?

MagicSean

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Buying drugs from criminals is not a choice, as it is the only option thanks to said legislation.

It is a choice. You can choose to just not buy them.

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

I didn't offer a solution, I said I hold the people who choose to enforce it responsible.

Of course you didn't offer a solution. It's easier to preach.

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

I believe I have already quite clearly outlined this as a problem and something I would like prevented.

So why did you laugh at my post?

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Bahahahaha :pac: and here's me just getting over the fact that the dodgy VHS copy of Wrestlemania 99 my mate gave me directly contributed to global terrorism :pac:

Either you accept that buying drugs contributes to gang murders or you don't. You can't say the legislation is causing deaths and then pretend that the buyer has no responability in handing over the actual cash.

BhoscaCapall

Corruptable wrote: »

Don't buy drugs then, is Sean's point. Did you miss the bit in primary school where they covered "wants" and "needs"?

Yes, because prohibition works wonders. Drugs have been illegal for how many years now? How many billions have been poured into the 'war on drugs'. And yet we still have them. Odd that. Still, don't question it, just keep your head in the sand and hope it works itself out!

MagicSean wrote: »

It is a choice. You can choose to just not buy them.

I don't buy them. I'm yet to see my compliance with the law cripple the gangland infrastructure :rolleyes: I have a few friends that do, and given the choice, they would all rather buy them from a licensed and controlled vendor, just like you can alcohol and tobacco.

Of course you didn't offer a solution. It's easier to preach.

It's even easier to be stupid.

So why did you laugh at my post?

Because it amused me. The same way the anti-piracy clowns who tell you you're swelling the coughers of Al-Queda et al when you buy a knock-off DVD from Johnny in your local.

Either you accept that buying drugs contributes to gang murders or you don't.

I'm not sure why you keep using the 'gang murders' thing. Why don't you go for something a little more dramatic, maybe the murdering of innocent children or something like that. Nobody particularly cares if some scumbag cartel boss in Dublin gets offed. Not even your precious Garda.

Corruptable

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Yes, because prohibition works wonders. Drugs have been illegal for how many years now? How many billions have been poured into the 'war on drugs'. And yet we still have them. Odd that. Still, don't question it, just keep your head in the sand and hope it works itself out!


I don't buy them. I'm yet to see my compliance with the law cripple the gangland infrastructure :rolleyes: I have a few friends that do, and given the choice, they would all rather buy them from a licensed and controlled vendor, just like you can alcohol and tobacco.


It's even easier to be stupid.


Because it amused me. The same way the anti-piracy clowns who tell you you're swelling the coughers of Al-Queda et al when you buy a knock-off DVD from Johnny in your local.


I'm not sure why you keep using the 'gang murders' thing. Why don't you go for something a little more dramatic, maybe the murdering of innocent children or something like that. Nobody particularly cares if some scumbag cartel boss in Dublin gets offed. Not even your precious Garda.

I've to borrow a phrase from Sean and say that's a pretty big chip you've got there.

If you don't agree with prohibition then you have to go to the Oireachtas and get a majority to vote to legalise. Some fellow travellers can be found here http://www.legalisecannabis.ie/

As has been previously noted, the gardai and the courts simply enforce the law, they don't make it and their agreement is not necessary for its formation.

MagicSean

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Yes, because prohibition works wonders. Drugs have been illegal for how many years now? How many billions have been poured into the 'war on drugs'. And yet we still have them. Odd that. Still, don't question it, just keep your head in the sand and hope it works itself out!

Fact is that it is illegal to possess cannabis in this country. If you disagree with it you should lobby for change politically through your local representatives. I've yet to see one proper movement for the decriminalising of cannabis.

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

I don't buy them. I'm yet to see my compliance with the law cripple the gangland infrastructure :rolleyes: I have a few friends that do, and given the choice, they would all rather buy them from a licensed and controlled vendor, just like you can alcohol and tobacco.

But it isn't legal here so they can't. So there options are to either not buy it and campaign for change in the law or buy it illegally and contribute to criminal gangs.

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

It's even easier to be stupid.

That's a poor attempt at an insult.

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Because it amused me. The same way the anti-piracy clowns who tell you you're swelling the coughers of Al-Queda et al when you buy a knock-off DVD from Johnny in your local.

So on one hand you laugh at the idea that buying drugs contributes to gangland crime but on the other you condem the legislation that makes drugs illegal because it contributes to gangland crime.

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

I'm not sure why you keep using the 'gang murders' thing. Why don't you go for something a little more dramatic, maybe the murdering of innocent children or something like that. Nobody particularly cares if some scumbag cartel boss in Dublin gets offed. Not even your precious Garda.

It's not always the scumbags that get killed.

tayto lover

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Yes, because prohibition works wonders. Drugs have been illegal for how many years now? How many billions have been poured into the 'war on drugs'. And yet we still have them. Odd that. Still, don't question it, just keep your head in the sand and hope it works itself out!


I don't buy them. I'm yet to see my compliance with the law cripple the gangland infrastructure :rolleyes: I have a few friends that do, and given the choice, they would all rather buy them from a licensed and controlled vendor, just like you can alcohol and tobacco.


It's even easier to be stupid.


Because it amused me. The same way the anti-piracy clowns who tell you you're swelling the coughers of Al-Queda et al when you buy a knock-off DVD from Johnny in your local.


I'm not sure why you keep using the 'gang murders' thing. Why don't you go for something a little more dramatic, maybe the murdering of innocent children or something like that. Nobody particularly cares if some scumbag cartel boss in Dublin gets offed. Not even your precious Garda.

What a post. I often wonder at the mentality of people who can make little of the taking of a life no matter whose it is. I actually feel sorry for you after coming out with that last comment. Not all the people who die by gangs in Dublin, Limerick or elsewhere because of the drugs market are guilty. Look at what happened to the little Polish girl whose body was dug up only days ago.

your questions OP are reasonable, there is nothing wrong with wondering if you have to give those details under the law. nothing wrong with defending your human rights, at all.

however, your attitude as the thread has gone on has undermined your questions.

you have expressed the attitude that Gardai should not enforce drug legislation because you believe drugs should be legal. this obviously has coloured your view of gardai doing their job.

its this simple, gardai were clearly planning a raid on the house you were in, had you been in the house when the warrant was executed then you would have been searched and asked for your name, address etc, and you would have had to give them. now, realistically, gardai are watching a house, ready to search it, you leave, of course they are going to stop and find out who you are.

dont give them your details if you dont wish but be prepared to be arrested under the misuse of drugs act and brought to the station. the very fact that you had left a house shortly before a warrant was executed there would be reason enough, do you not think?

whether or not you think drugs should be legalised is a completely seperate issue, its illegal right now and thats that.

Wile E. Coyote

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

"Hi there, my name is Garda ____ and I need to search you under the Misuse of Drugs Act, could step out of the vehicle please"

I think you've made your opinion on the guards and the work they do crystal clear. I'd say if the guard had rolled out the red carpet you'd still be on complaining about them. I do find it hilarious though that you carry your passport and willingly show it to any random barman or bouncer who asks but get offended when a guard does.

The ally cat

benway wrote: »

Ah here, don't be so touchy. SC is a colleague, not exactly a friend, and it is a true story in so far as I'm aware - it's certainly what he told me more or less verbatim.

I think anyone who's spent enough time around the Courts will have seen enough botched prosecutions and investigations to have a certain ... circumspection ... towards the Gardaí, can imagine what 20 years on the bench would have done to you. I thought it was a good story ... and tbh I still do.

Back on topic, it's not semantics, it's a fundamental separation of powers point - this is legal discussion, is it not? A Garda doesn't have the authority to order me to do much - where I refuse, it's up to the Court to back the request with a sanction.

Where would the courts be without gardai?
In fairness the courts and legal profession are well capable of producing their own cock ups, I know the judge you refer to and he's no addition to the courts or his profession!

BhoscaCapall

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

I'd say if the guard had rolled out the red carpet you'd still be on complaining about them.

Yet another stupid and misguided assumption. You certainly aren't short of those.

I do find it hilarious though that you carry your passport and willingly show it to any random barman or bouncer who asks but get offended when a guard does.

I don't show it to "any random barman or bouncer who asks". I show it to bouncers employed by a premises I wish to enter. If I was walking down the street minding my own business and a bouncer asked to see my ID, I would question them in a similar fashion. A poor analogy, but if it's any consolation, it's not the stupidest thing you've come out with in this thread.

The ally cat

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

I'd say if the guard had rolled out the red carpet you'd still be on complaining about them.

Yet another stupid and misguided assumption. You certainly aren't short of those.

I do find it hilarious though that you carry your passport and willingly show it to any random barman or bouncer who asks but get offended when a guard does.

I don't show it to "any random barman or bouncer who asks". I show it to bouncers employed by a premises I wish to enter. If I was walking down the street minding my own business and a bouncer asked to see my ID, I would question them in a similar fashion. A poor analogy, but if it's any consolation, it's not the stupidest thing you've come out with in this thread.

It's time a national identity card was rolled out and that passports get used for what they are actually for which is travelling abroad. Too many spotty teenagers handing them to bouncers and losing them when pissed on nights out! If they didn't carry them with them the gardai wouldn't know who they are when they get randomly stopped. There's a garda age card for €10 it would be much more appropiate OP.

BhoscaCapall

The ally cat wrote: »

It's time a national identity card was rolled out and that passports get used for what they are actually for which is travelling abroad. Too many spotty teenagers handing them to bouncers and losing them when pissed on nights out! If they didn't carry them with them the gardai wouldn't know who they are when they get randomly stopped. There's a garda age card for €10 it would be much more appropiate OP.

Possibly the most irrelevant post so far, and that's saying something.

blueythebear

Why does every thread on this site involving Gardaí become a Garda bashing session?

The OP was stopped by the Gardaí and questioned. They are allowed to do this. They asked various questions and asked for ID, they are permitted to do so. They are permitted to ask any question they want but the OP does not have to necessarily answer.

However, if you fail to answer an innocuous question or comply with a reasonable request, that in and of itself could lead to the Garda employing the wide powers that they do have as in doing so, you appear suspicious.

I don't see anything particularly wrong with the action of the Gardaí in this case.

The ally cat

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

The ally cat wrote: »

It's time a national identity card was rolled out and that passports get used for what they are actually for which is travelling abroad. Too many spotty teenagers handing them to bouncers and losing them when pissed on nights out! If they didn't carry them with them the gardai wouldn't know who they are when they get randomly stopped. There's a garda age card for €10 it would be much more appropiate OP.

Possibly the most irrelevant post so far, and that's saying something.

Only if you're not spotty!

BhoscaCapall

The ally cat wrote: »

Only if you're not spotty!

Indeed. I'm well past the age of spots, in fact I'm well past the age of really having to carry a passport around, but I do so in case the odd jobsworth (who probably failed the Garda recruitment...) decides to ruin my night to satisfy his ego.

The ally cat

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

The ally cat wrote: »

Only if you're not spotty!

Indeed. I'm well past the age of spots, in fact I'm well past the age of really having to carry a passport around, but I do so in case the odd jobsworth (who probably failed the Garda recruitment...) decides to ruin my night to satisfy his ego.

Apologies, You fooled me, I was full sure you had a face full of blackheads! I love the bit where you say while one guard was searching you the other was chatting your Girlfriend telling her to leave you behind, I've a feeling he was giving her more than a bit of good advice. That's probally your biggest gripe! What section did that power come from horse box!

BhoscaCapall

The ally cat wrote: »

Apologies, You fooled me, I was full sure you had a face full of blackheads! I love the bit where you say while one guard was searching you the other was chatting your Girlfriend telling her to leave you behind, I've a feeling he was giving her more than a bit of good advice. That's probally your biggest gripe! What section did that power come from horse box!

He was just being a smarmy bell-end and she saw right through it. They were inconveniencing her just as much as me.