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Seached by the cops last night

  • 27-01-2012 02:16PM
    #1
    BhoscaCapall
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭


    Was pulled over last night (gf was driving), they asked her for her license which she provided. Came to the passenger side and asked me for ID, I politely asked them why they needed to see my ID, because I wasn't aware we lived in a country where citizens must carry ID at all times and produce it on demand (I didn't say this part, I just asked why), they got in a huff and dragged me out of the car and body searched me under the misuse of drugs act. They asked me where I'd just come from and I told them I'd just left a friends house (true), they asked me where and I told them the name of the estate. They asked which house number and I said I didn't know. This was the honest truth; I know which house it is but I do not know the house number, the same is true for many of my friend's houses. Not as if I send them letters or anything. The guards got in another huff about this and acted like it was massively suspicious that I didn't know the number. They grilled me for a bit and (i think) raided the house I'd come from. As expected, it was all a massive waste of everyone's time and they gave me my passport back and went off to waste someone else's, without so much as an apology for the hassle.

    Just wondering if everything they did was by the book. Did I have to show them ID (what if I didn't have any on me? Only reason I did was because it was in my jeans from the night before. Do I even have to tell them where I was coming from (the exact address and all)?


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Comments

  • #2
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    23.—(1) A member of the Garda Síochána who with reasonable cause suspects that a person is in possession in contravention of this Act of a controlled drug, may without warrant—

    (a) search the person and, if he considers it necessary for that purpose, detain the person for such time as is reasonably necessary for making the search,

    (b) search any vehicle, vessel or aircraft in which he suspects that such drug may be found and for the purpose of carrying out the search may, if he thinks fit, require the person who for the time being is in control of such vehicle, vessel or aircraft to bring it to a stop and when stopped to refrain from moving it, or in case such vehicle, vessel or aircraft is already stationary, to refrain from moving it, or

    (c) seize and detain anything found in the course of a search under this section which with such cause appears to him to be something which might be required as evidence in proceedings for an offence under this Act.

    (2) Nothing in this section shall operate to prejudice any power to search, or to seize or detain property which may be exercised by a member of the Garda Síochána apart from this section.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1977/en/act/pub/0012/sec0023.html#sec23

    If you feel you were treated unfairly then you should make a complaint to the Ombudsman. Nobody on this forum knows you or your girlfriend or your friends where you came from so it's impossible to know if they acted correctly.


  • #3
    kc66
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭kc66


    Why should they apologise? They are just trying to do their job and catch the bad guys! Criminals don't all look the same.


  • #4
    BhoscaCapall
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭BhoscaCapall


    MagicSean wrote: »
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1977/en/act/pub/0012/sec0023.html#sec23

    If you feel you were treated unfairly then you should make a complaint to the Ombudsman. Nobody on this forum knows you or your girlfriend or your friends where you came from so it's impossible to know if they acted correctly.
    All that really says is that they were within their rights to search me. I'm asking if I was right to question why I had to produce ID, and if I had to talk them through my social life.

    I would be reluctant to pursue a complaint because I don't really have any faith in it being taken seriously.

    Sure, you don't know me or my girlfriend so I'd ask you to just take this on face value. Let's "pretend" that we're not scumbags, we don't have criminal records and we were polite.
    kc66 wrote: »
    Why should they apologise? They are just trying to do their job and catch the bad guys! Criminals don't all look the same.
    For acting like complete tossers and wasting my time? Also, people who use recreational drugs are not "bad guys" no matter how much the government tries to brand them as such. Drug legislation is a complete joke and anyone who chooses to enforce it even more so.


  • #5
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    BhoscaCapall wrote: »
    All that really says is that they were within their rights to search me. I'm asking if I was right to question why I had to produce ID, and if I had to talk them through my social life.

    I would be reluctant to pursue a complaint because I don't really have any faith in it being taken seriously.

    Sure, you don't know me or my girlfriend so I'd ask you to just take this on face value. Let's "pretend" that we're not scumbags, we don't have criminal records and we were polite.

    You are not legally obliged to answer questions unless a lawful demand is made on you. Staying silent may not always be a good idea though.
    BhoscaCapall wrote: »
    For acting like complete tossers and wasting my time? Also, people who use recreational drugs are not "bad guys" no matter how much the government tries to brand them as such. Drug legislation is a complete joke and anyone who chooses to enforce it even more so.

    You think Gardaí should be able to choose what laws to enforce?


  • #6
    benway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    Sounds like someone was power tripping to me ... did they outline their "reasonable cause". I'd definitely go to the ombudsman, also maybe consult a solicitor with a view to pressing a claim. Did you get names and badge numbers?

    @kc66 That's more than a little naïve, cops can easily be "bad guys" themselves, especially if they aren't kept on a very tight leash. Do the names Frank Shortt and Frank McBrearty mean anything to you?


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  • #7
    BhoscaCapall
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭BhoscaCapall


    MagicSean wrote: »
    You are not legally obliged to answer questions unless a lawful demand is made on you. Staying silent may not always be a good idea though.
    What's the point in having rights, if you get bullied into waiving them anyway?
    You think Gardaí should be able to choose what laws to enforce?
    I think anyone in the DS needs to take a good look at themselves and question whether their work causes more harm than good.


  • #8
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    benway wrote: »
    Sounds like someone was power tripping to me ... did they outline their "reasonable cause". I'd definitely go to the ombudsman, also maybe consult a solicitor with a view to pressing a claim. Did you get names and badge numbers?

    @kc66 That's more than a little naïve, cops can easily be "bad guys" themselves, especially if they aren't kept on a very tight leash. Do the names Frank Shortt and Frank McBrearty mean anything to you?

    Thhey don't have to outline their reasonable cause to you.
    BhoscaCapall wrote: »
    What's the point in having rights, if you get bullied into waiving them anyway?

    All rights carry a responsability of some sort. If you choose to stay silent and not cooperate you have to deal with the possible consequences. You won't be made break your silence but you won't be just let go either.
    BhoscaCapall wrote: »
    I think anyone in the DS needs to take a good look at themselves and question whether their work causes more harm than good.

    DS?


  • #9
    Wile E. Coyote
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭Wile E. Coyote


    BhoscaCapall wrote: »
    Drug legislation is a complete joke and anyone who chooses to enforce it even more so.
    I think anyone in the DS needs to take a good look at themselves and question whether their work causes more harm than good.

    I think these two little gems tell me all I need to know.


  • #10
    Wile E. Coyote
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭Wile E. Coyote


    MagicSean wrote: »
    DS?

    Drug Squad I'm assuming.


  • #11
    BhoscaCapall
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭BhoscaCapall


    Wile E. Coyote wrote: »
    I think these two little gems tell me all I need to know.

    Oh really? What about this one:
    BhoscaCapall wrote: »
    They grilled me for a bit and (i think) raided the house I'd come from. As expected, it was all a massive waste of everyone's time and they gave me my passport back and went off

    I suppose anyone who questioned the laws forbidding gay-marriage must have been closet homosexuals too then? I'm against the legislation outlawing abortions, do you think I'm pregnant?


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  • #12
    Wile E. Coyote
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭Wile E. Coyote


    BhoscaCapall wrote: »
    Oh really? What about this one:
    Originally Posted by BhoscaCapall viewpost.gif
    They grilled me for a bit and (i think) raided the house I'd come from. As expected, it was all a massive waste of everyone's time and they gave me my passport back and went off

    Well to start with I'll take it that your a 'recreational' drug user and that the house you came from is known to the guards. They didn't get a warrant at a minutes notice after stopping you and your girlfriend so any raid on the house was pre-planned and they were watching anyone that was coming or going from the property. Also the fact that you don't know the address and only 'think' it was raided would lead me to believe that it's not actually your friends house but someone you buy drugs from. If it was an actual friend you'd know if his house had been raided as you'd have rang him to find out what happened before posting on here.


  • #13
    benway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    MagicSean wrote: »
    Thhey don't have to outline their reasonable cause to you.
    But they MUST have reasonable cause, and it would be helpful for a potential complaint or proceedings if they had happened to give any indication.

    Personally I think, this:
    BhoscaCapall wrote:
    Came to the passenger side and asked me for ID, I politely asked them why they needed to see my ID, because I wasn't aware we lived in a country where citizens must carry ID at all times and produce it on demand (I didn't say this part, I just asked why), they got in a huff and dragged me out of the car and body searched me under the misuse of drugs act.

    Tells it all. The boys in blue obviously thought they'd take this uppidy ballix down a peg, and sure if they found drugs in the process, so much the better.

    Let's be clear on this, Garda powers represent a derogation from our personal rights, and should be strictly limited and only applied when absolutely necessary and justified. OP's "responsibilities" don't come in to play here, only those of the Gardaí not to conduct frivolous, time-wasting searches.


  • #14
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,076 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Wile E. Coyote wrote: »
    . Also the fact that you don't know the address

    I've some friends who I could drive to and have no idea of the address, I don't even know the addresses of some of my family, and some of my friends don't even know my real name, my nickname was on a place card at ones wedding!

    Not everyone bothers with things like addresses once they know the way.


  • #15
    BhoscaCapall
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭BhoscaCapall


    Wile E. Coyote wrote: »
    Well to start with I'll take it that your a 'recreational' drug user
    No more than I am gay or pregnant.
    and that the house you came from is known to the guards. They didn't get a warrant at a minutes notice after stopping you and your girlfriend so any raid on the house was pre-planned and they were watching anyone that was coming or going from the property.
    Yet they found nothing.
    Also the fact that you don't know the address and only 'think' it was raided would lead me to believe that it's not actually your friends house but someone you buy drugs from. If it was an actual friend you'd know if his house had been raided as you'd have rang him to find out what happened before posting on here.
    Nice assumptions bro. My phone died last night and I panned out in bed until late today, so I haven't contacted anyone.

    I do like the "doesn't know address, MUST BE BUYING DRUGS" logic you have employed there. Certainly doesn't make you look a bit silly.
    benway wrote: »
    Personally I think, this:



    Tells it all. The boys in blue obviously thought they'd take this uppidy ballix down a peg
    So because I (rightfully) questioned them in a polite manner, I'm an 'uppidy ballix [sic]'? What a disgraceful attitude.


  • #16
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    benway wrote: »
    But they MUST have reasonable cause, and it would be helpful for a potential complaint or proceedings if they had happened to give any indication.

    They must have reasonable cause but they don't have to outline them to you.
    benway wrote: »
    Personally I think, this:



    Tells it all. The boys in blue obviously thought they'd take this uppidy ballix down a peg, and sure if they found drugs in the process, so much the better.

    Maybe that was what happened. So you're saying if he'd been a bit more helpful he wouldn't have had a problem?
    benway wrote: »
    Let's be clear on this, Garda powers represent a derogation from our personal rights, and should be strictly limited and only applied when absolutely necessary and justified. OP's "responsibilities" don't come in to play here, only those of the Gardaí not to conduct frivolous, time-wasting searches.

    Like i said already. We don't know the op, his girlfriend or his friends so we don't know if it was "frivolous".


  • #17
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    BhoscaCapall wrote: »
    No more than I am gay or pregnant.


    Yet they found nothing.


    Nice assumptions bro. My phone died last night and I panned out in bed until late today, so I haven't contacted anyone.

    I do like the "doesn't know address, MUST BE BUYING DRUGS" logic you have employed there. Certainly doesn't make you look a bit silly.


    So because I (rightfully) questioned them in a polite manner, I'm an 'uppidy ballix [sic]'? What a disgraceful attitude.

    I think it's more along the lines of

    1) House about to be raided for drugs
    2) Two people leave before raid
    3) Strong possibility that the two who left are buying or transporting drugs

    I think that's the reasonable cause that would have been used here. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.


  • #18
    benway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    It is, and it's what I generally get off Gardaí whenever I've had the temerity to question their absolute right to have their word obeyed ... outside of a court setting.

    For example, had a guy trying to haul me in when I was on my way between office and Four Courts while Liz was visiting because I told him to take his hands off me and f*ck right off when he went to search me. Took one of the older lads telling him to calm down for me to get away ... sounds like a very similar situation to me.


  • #19
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    BhoscaCapall wrote: »
    Drug legislation is a complete joke and anyone who chooses to enforce it even more so.

    While I would agree with this (not a user myself but I subscribe to the harm principal - DON'T brand me with those fremen knobs :P) What is also a joke is that people think driving under the influence of drugs is perfectly fine. What drug users (and drinkers for that matter) choose to do to themselves is their own business what happens to others is the responsibility of those behind the wheel.

    Having said that I'm not suggesting you or your gf were under the influence just seemed the right place to have my tuppence worth as you opened the door!

    Also not all gardas are as polite as I'd like - I've had occasion to ask one who she thought she was speaking too, however if I had to deal with the crap they deal with I'd probably have my bad days! Life is give and take if people stick rigidly to "their rights" then expect the gardas too and drag you down the nick. A bit of co-operation on both sides goes along way.

    LOL happened to be during Liz's visit that I had words with one - didn't mind the searches it was being told to shut my window in a less that polite manner.


  • #20
    Wile E. Coyote
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭Wile E. Coyote


    BhoscaCapall wrote: »
    Yet they found nothing.

    Is that your way of saying, 'yes the house is known to the guards for drug use'? And how do you know they found nothing when you don't know if it was raided?


  • #21
    BhoscaCapall
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭BhoscaCapall


    MagicSean wrote: »
    Maybe that was what happened. So you're saying if he'd been a bit more helpful he wouldn't have had a problem?
    There's being helpful and there's being bullied into forfeiting your rights.
    Like i said already. We don't know the op, his girlfriend or his friends so we don't know if it was "frivolous".
    Like I said already, let's just pretend we are nice honest people for the sake of this discussion. If we're going to base everything on misguided assumptions then nothing you say is going to be very helpful is it?

    I'd say the fact that searching me, the car and the house turned up nothing is a good indication that it was frivolous.

    Also my gf has nothing to do with this other than the fact she was in the car. One of the guards tried to make some crap conversation with her while we were standing there, another kindly suggested she drive home and leave me there.
    MagicSean wrote: »
    I think it's more along the lines of

    1) House about to be raided for drugs
    2) Two people leave before raid
    3) Strong possibility that the two who left are buying or transporting drugs

    I think that's the reasonable cause that would have been used here. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
    I have at no point asked anyone to justify them searching me. I'm not sure why several people have addressed that to be honest.


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  • #22
    BhoscaCapall
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭BhoscaCapall


    Wile E. Coyote wrote: »
    Is that your way of saying, 'yes the house is known to the guards for drug use'? And how do you know they found nothing when you don't know if it was raided?
    No it's my way of saying they didn't find anything.

    Notice how everything you've said so far is based on your own rubbish assumptions?

    The house could be known as a terrorist chemical weapons strong hold for all it matters. I didn't break any laws.


  • #23
    weeder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,469 ✭✭✭weeder


    BhoscaCapall wrote: »
    I have at no point asked anyone to justify them searching me. I'm not sure why several people have addressed that to be honest.

    Thats boards for you.


  • #24
    benway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    Seems some people believe that the Gardaí can do no wrong. Then again there are those ... like myself ... who think that they do very little right.

    There's no obligation on a citizen to be "helpful" to the Gardaí, it's up to them to justify their imposition on a citizen and encroachment on his/her rights.


  • #25
    Wile E. Coyote
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭Wile E. Coyote


    BhoscaCapall wrote: »
    The house could be known as a terrorist chemical weapons strong hold for all it matters. I didn't break any laws.

    And is a Guard supposed to just take your word for it? He asked for ID, you stalled and asked why you had to show it. He asked where you were coming from you said you didn't know.

    My 'rubbish assumptions' are based on the limited details that you've given us so far. What we know is exactly the same as what the Guard had to go on last night - Just before a house was about to be raided, for drugs, weapons, terrorists or whatever else you want to add in there, you and your girlfriend left the house and drove off.


  • #26
    BhoscaCapall
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭BhoscaCapall


    Wile E. Coyote wrote: »
    And is a Guard supposed to just take your word for it? He asked for ID, you stalled and asked why you had to show it.
    Did I have to show it?
    He asked where you were coming from you said you didn't know.
    Did I have to tell him?

    These are the questions I've asked. I haven't asked for you to pass judgement on my character based on some pathetic assumptions.


  • #27
    DonalK1981
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 370 ✭✭DonalK1981


    Wile E. Coyote wrote: »
    And is a Guard supposed to just take your word for it? He asked for ID, you stalled and asked why you had to show it. He asked where you were coming from you said you didn't know.

    My 'rubbish assumptions' are based on the limited details that you've given us so far. What we know is exactly the same as what the Guard had to go on last night - Just before a house was about to be raided, for drugs, weapons, terrorists or whatever else you want to add in there, you and your girlfriend left the house and drove off.

    You don't have to show id, and a Gaurd has to investigate crimes that have been committed or prevent crimes from happening. Your name, d.o.b, address and a general account of your movements is all that is required.

    Do you not think the OP was there dropping off the drugs/chemical weapons and the terrorists, that must have been why the Gaurds didn't find them!!!


  • #28
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    kc66 wrote: »
    Why should they apologise? They are just trying to do their job and catch the bad guys! Criminals don't all look the same.

    This didn't sound like they were trying to catch any bad guys . Wasting time more like it and the OP and his girlfriend didn't know any of the Gardaí involved so why should they have been stopped ?


  • #29
    Wile E. Coyote
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭Wile E. Coyote


    BhoscaCapall wrote: »
    I have at no point asked anyone to justify them searching me. I'm not sure why several people have addressed that to be honest.

    What you did ask was:-
    Just wondering if everything they did was by the book. Did I have to show them ID

    Going by what you've told us then I would imagine they did everything by the book. They were about to raid a property that you'd just left. You could have been transporting what they were looking for or been the person they were after which is why they needed ID to prove you were who you said you were. You didn't have to show the ID but it would have meant they kept you there longer than nessesary until they could prove your identity.

    In my experience if a guard stops you then answer the question without sounding like a smartass. Do that and you'll be on your way, don't and they'll keep you sitting there.


  • #30
    Ayla
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭Ayla


    Back to the OP, I think the situation is similar to roadchecks where the guardi randomly stop cars & sometimes ask for personal info. I've always wondered about the legality of this - if I'm just driving down the road w/ my kids, why should I have to tell anyone where I live, where I'm coming from, where I'm going & who I am?

    I'm all for surrendering some personal rights for the greater good (ie: I have no problem with security checks at the airport, etc) but I haven't been able to figure out what the purpose of these roadchecks are. They seem - to me - to be a throwback to an era which we've fortunately outgrown and everyone just goes along with them because they don't want to cause any trouble for themselves.


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  • #31
    benway
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    No obligation to carry ID, and you can refuse to answer any questions, or insist that the Garda outlines the basis on which you are being questioned before answering. Of course, this is likely to lead to a disproportionate, power-crazed response, possibly involving an arrest.

    All of which reminds me of a story a well-known SC told me about a retired HC judge getting blootered at some Inns function and opening his after dinner speech with, "Jesus Christ, I hate Guards. I'd there's one bunch of cnuts I hate, it's Guards". Apocryphal, maybe ... but it's a good story.


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