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If Les Pauls are so great, then why...

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  • #62
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Gaspode wrote: »
    And just yesterday I was reading the read in a very similar vein (Guitarist Ireland group on FB) but strats were the object of derision/adulation.

    Personally I dont think brand matters, it's down to how the individual guitar feels to you.
    I've not played many Gibson LPs, but those I did I didn't think were worth their price, and were a tad heavy for my liking.

    They're purty though compared to Strats.

    Yeah, the exact same discussion could be had about any relatively expensive iconic brand.


  • #63
    Welease
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    My advice to people, regarding guitars and amps, is try EVERYTHING you can. You'll find extreme value, esp in the used/vintage market, if you can avoid the whole, "brand loyalty" nonsense!
    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    That's a silly example. I can buy (and video editing suites are now full of) a PC that's as powerful as any Mac, for a good 40% less in many cases. Macs have developed a cult and people pay a huge cult tax for them. ESP apple branded accessories which are often 2-3 times the cost of a non-Apple branded equivalent.

    And people still unquestioningly line up to buy them.
    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    My point was, is, that that psychological aspect is nonsense.

    Projecting worth onto something simply because it was hard to find doesn't actually make it valuable; likewise something being amazing doesn't make it valuable if no one wants it.

    Gibson heads have created a cult of Gibson, which like all cults, is full of delusion and self-aggrandisement.

    I think you are being a bit unfair to the average consumer.. they are actually a lot smarter than you give them credit for, it's just that you have a different set of priorities and requirements than those you believe are brand cultists. It doesn't make either of you right or wrong, just different.

    In the modern market place the consumer places a high value on brand and being seen with the "in" brand.. You may not value that experience, but a colossal amount of consumers do, and that places a premium value to those brands which can and does go beyond their true cost.. but it does add to their value. A Gibson can and will sell and hold it's value beyond other "better" guitars precisely because of the "brand", as do Apple products, Designer Jeans etc etc. Many consumers will buy that LP solely because it's a Gibson. They are not wrong or cultists if their primary goal is to own a Gibson..

    I own a range of guitars.. and my #1 guitar is an Indonesian Squire Telecaster.. But I'm willing to bet if I opened up my room and gave everyone a free choice of guitar to take home.. 99.9% of people would walk out with one of the Gibson's or Fender's.. Precisely because they are those "brands".


  • #64
    Doc_Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Doc_Savage


    Welease wrote: »
    I own a range of guitars.. and my #1 guitar is an Indonesian Squire Telecaster.. But I'm willing to bet if I opened up my room and gave everyone a free choice of guitar to take home.. 99.9% of people would walk out with one of the Gibson's or Fender's.. Precisely because they are those "brands".

    just want to put myself forward as a willing guinea pig for this bet!

    anyway, fair point too. but i think that powerful brands and iconic brands are different things, and should be separately considered, not to say there isn't overlap!


  • #65
    firefly08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 854 ✭✭✭firefly08


    That's a silly example. I can buy (and video editing suites are now full of) a PC that's as powerful as any Mac, for a good 40% less in many cases. Macs have developed a cult and people pay a huge cult tax for them. ESP apple branded accessories which are often 2-3 times the cost of a non-Apple branded equivalent.

    And people still unquestioningly line up to buy them.

    Then you have proved my point; you regard a product that's "as powerful" as the Mac as being it's equal. That's fine. But, you seem to be maintaining that because of that, if it's cheaper, it's better value, and the Mac is overpriced by virtue of it's brand name. You think that only because you ignore the characteristeics that you don't place value on - but they still cost money to make!


  • #66
    Malice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Malice


    hidinginthebush wrote: »
    I'm with Malice on this. Being a lefty, going to guitar shoops in Ireland is the most boring and uninspiring exercise I can think of, especially when it comes to buying something that isn't a LP or Strat. There simply aren't enough leftys out there it seems for shops to stock anything from gibsons, epiphones, fenders and then a load of €200 electrics. I've happily bought guitars and amps online, and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.
    To be fair, I do agree with Ardent to the extent that I wouldn't spend €1,500 on a guitar without being able to check it out first. Although, to be honest I probably wouldn't spend €1,500 on a guitar full stop :)


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  • #67
    Ravelleman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,635 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ravelleman


    Ardent wrote: »
    Not into Fenders, they remind me of country music and the Beach Boys!

    That's why they're so cool.

    For me they're the very emobidment of futuristic, 1950s convenience culture. The designs are so radical, ergonomic, flowing - surely inspired by cars, which were themselves inspired by rocket ships and space culture - while at the same time being perfectly designed for mass production.

    They're absolutely iconic as well, but for different reasons.


  • #68
    Malice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Malice


    ednwireland wrote: »
    mylespaul forums

    http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/les-paul/
    I read that first as a forum dedicated to someone called Myles Paul. Only once I opened the site did the penny drop as to how I should have read it. :o


  • #69
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    firefly08 wrote: »
    Then you have proved my point; you regard a product that's "as powerful" as the Mac as being it's equal. That's fine. But, you seem to be maintaining that because of that, if it's cheaper, it's better value, and the Mac is overpriced by virtue of it's brand name. You think that only because you ignore the characteristeics that you don't place value on - but they still cost money to make!

    No.

    It's overpriced because when you add up the value of it's components it's overpriced, relative to it's competition. It's allowed to be overpriced because apple cultists will pay whatever Apple asks, no matter the products "value".

    If you're saying I'm ignoring valuable characteristics I'm saying the only characteristic I'm not adding into the value (That's not ignoring it, just not valuing it) is it's brand.

    If you ACTUALLY think a brand name is worth a 20% bump in price, ALONE, then you're actually proving how strong branding is.

    Place a value on the components and their functionality, compare them to a similar machine from a different manufacturer and then tell me why slapping the apple logo on it makes the components suddenly 20% more valuable.



  • #70
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    No.

    It's overpriced because when you add up the value of it's components it's overpriced, relative to it's competition. It's allowed to be overpriced because apple cultists will pay whatever Apple asks, no matter the products "value".

    If you're saying I'm ignoring valuable characteristics I'm saying the only characteristic I'm not adding into the value (That's not ignoring it, just not valuing it) is it's brand.

    If you ACTUALLY think a brand name is worth a 20% bump in price, ALONE, then you're actually proving how strong branding is.

    Place a value on the components and their functionality, compare them to a similar machine from a different manufacturer and then tell me why slapping the apple logo on it makes the components suddenly 20% more valuable.



    Skoda, Volkswagen. Or Skoda, Audi, if you're that way inclined.


    (Don't see how the YouTube clip is really relevant...)


    (And actually -- and with my tongue in cheek! -- this thread should really be titled "If Les Pauls are so great, then why don't I like them"...):D


  • #71
    kevin65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 537 ✭✭✭kevin65


    Malice wrote: »
    Same question to you then: What happens if you want something out of the ordinary?
    Of my guitars that are probably considered out of the ordinary, only one of them was bought in an Irish shop. Of the others, two were imported from Japan and two came from USA. Where would I even begin to try to purchase any of them in Ireland?

    What's the MLP forum?

    I'm not interested in buying something out of the ordinary.

    How you purchase your guitars is your prerogative...


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  • #72
    ednwireland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,716 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    Malice wrote: »
    I read that first as a forum dedicated to someone called Myles Paul. Only once I opened the site did the penny drop as to how I should have read it. :o

    i still read it like that :D ( i think its just how tour brain splits it up !)

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



  • #73
    Malice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Malice


    kevin65 wrote: »
    I'm not interested in buying something out of the ordinary.
    Really? Personally I'd hate to have my choices dictated by the whims of my local music shops. Here in Galway it used to be the case that there would be a couple of vastly overpriced Fender Strats and Gibson Les Pauls and various low-end Squier, Epiphone, Aria and Peavey guitars. No middle ground e.g. something for between €500 - €700. Is it the same wherever you're living?

    Maybe I'm using the wrong choice of words or something? What defines ordinary for you?


  • #74
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Malice wrote: »
    Really? Personally I'd hate to have my choices dictated by the whims of my local music shops. Here in Galway it used to be the case that there would be a couple of vastly overpriced Fender Strats and Gibson Les Pauls and various low-end Squier, Epiphone, Aria and Peavey guitars. No middle ground e.g. something for between €500 - €700. Is it the same wherever you're living?

    Maybe I'm using the wrong choice of words or something? What defines ordinary for you?

    My only online guitar purchase to date -- actually, my girlfriend got it for me as a surprise after I'd expressed interest: how great is she?!:D -- was a Hofner Shorty from Thomann.

    It's great: no problems, no issues, was well set up, sounds good, and has a pretty good neck (could use some oil). But then, it was only about €125...

    Actually, on that, I'm amazed at the quality of it for the price. Chinese made and €125, and it's giggable. I would use it as a backup to my LP. The fact that it's light as a feather is only a bonus...


  • #75
    firefly08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 854 ✭✭✭firefly08


    No.

    It's overpriced because when you add up the value of it's components it's overpriced, relative to it's competition. It's allowed to be overpriced because apple cultists will pay whatever Apple asks, no matter the products "value".

    If you're just adding up the value of it's components, that doesn't tell you what it cost to make. That is probably where you're going wrong.
    If you ACTUALLY think a brand name is worth a 20% bump in price, ALONE, then you're actually proving how strong branding is.

    Place a value on the components and their functionality, compare them to a similar machine from a different manufacturer and then tell me why slapping the apple logo on it makes the components suddenly 20% more valuable.

    OK, firstly, you said 40% the first time. :P

    Secondly, I can't tell you why slapping the Apple logo on it makes the components worth more, because I don't believe it does.

    As I've said, I do think brand names command a small premium - by small, I mean relatively small, when compared to the difference in cost that comes from things other than the name. Those "other things" include both objective quality issues (such as the physical construction of a Macbook) and less measurable things, such as the way the user interface works. These things may or may not add value in your mind; but it is an objective fact that they do affect the cost of making the product. This is where most of the difference in price goes.


  • #76
    Ravelleman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,635 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ravelleman


    I know a lot of people who like Apple because of the ´form´ of their products - clean, minimal, modern. For them this ´form´ is representative of a certain lifestyle to which they wish to subscribe.

    It´s the same with Gibson but the characteristics of their products´ forms are distinct.


  • #77
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Their form is often incredibly functionality as well. Which is partially why its copied so often.


  • #78
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,741 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    See, the problem with using the Mac comparison, is it isn't always technically about the brand. You can't really compare OSx to Windows, they're like apples and oranges. They both have their drawbacks and advantages. One of the main benefits of a mac is the lack of hassle you get, very little maintenance and they always run very smoothly. They're also extremely user friendly

    If Gibson made every Les Paul with no flaws and a perfect setup, rather than the terrible QC we see nowadays with blemished finishes, uneven frets and terribly filed nuts, it wouldn't be such a problem, Gibson's would simply be inferior, and we wouldn't have this wild goose chase of people trying to find a half decent one out of a dozen.


  • #79
    kevin65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 537 ✭✭✭kevin65


    Malice wrote: »
    Really? Personally I'd hate to have my choices dictated by the whims of my local music shops. Here in Galway it used to be the case that there would be a couple of vastly overpriced Fender Strats and Gibson Les Pauls and various low-end Squier, Epiphone, Aria and Peavey guitars. No middle ground e.g. something for between €500 - €700. Is it the same wherever you're living?

    Maybe I'm using the wrong choice of words or something? What defines ordinary for you?

    You seem to be taking issue with my choice in buying guitars, but I'm not sure why. If you think your way is the only way, well that's fine.

    I have three electric guitars at the moment which are my keepers, one was bought in Sligo, and two were bought in Galway. They are a Yamaha SG, a Fender Strat and a Gibson Les Paul. I have also bought guitars in Dublin and New York.
    None of them were over-priced and all are decent guitars. My choice was not dictated to me, it was my choice and I'm happy with them.


  • #80
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    ...Place a value on the components and their functionality, compare them to a similar machine from a different manufacturer and then tell me why slapping the apple logo on it makes the components suddenly 20% more valuable....

    Because its more complicated than that. Its like saying Dell Latitude laptops are more expensive then the Insprions simply because of the branding. Ditto a Acer vs a Toshiba.


  • #81
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Beside which its not a valid comparison Apple and Gibson. Its an inane comparison.

    Fenders were fundamentally designed for ease of manufacture and use cheaper woods.


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  • #82
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    BostonB wrote: »
    Beside which its not a valid comparison Apple and Gibson. Its an inane comparison.

    Fenders were fundamentally designed for ease of manufacture and use cheaper woods.

    True. Leo wanted something workmanlike that could be relatively easily repaired.

    Gibson were coming from a tradition of carved tops and furniture-grade wood.

    (Massive simplification, but the basic point is correct).


  • #83
    Malice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Malice


    kevin65 wrote: »
    You seem to be taking issue with my choice in buying guitars, but I'm not sure why. If you think your way is the only way, well that's fine.
    I'm trying to understand the logic of restricting yourself (in my view needlessly) to just what's available in a bricks and mortar shop. Obviously I think it's better not to impose unnecessary limits.
    kevin65 wrote:
    My choice was not dictated to me, it was my choice
    It was your choice based on what was available in the shop at the time.


  • #84
    kevin65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 537 ✭✭✭kevin65


    Malice wrote: »
    I'm trying to understand the logic of restricting yourself (in my view needlessly) to just what's available in a bricks and mortar shop. Obviously I think it's better not to impose unnecessary limits.

    It was your choice based on what was available in the shop at the time.

    It was my choice to buy or walk out and try somewhere else if the shop in question didn't have what I wanted.


  • #85
    Keyzer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,331 ✭✭✭Keyzer


    A lot of off topic nonsense going on here tbh.

    The original question was if LP's are so great then why are there so many of them on forums being sold.

    There's a whole myriad of reasons why this might be the case:

    1. Perhaps, in this day and age, people are trying to sell to get a few quid because they are out of pocket.
    2. Perhaps sellers fancy a change and want to try something else but dont want to fork out a tonne of cash.

    Personally speaking, I have never noticed more Les Paul's for sale over any other type of guitar. If I do a search on Adverts.ie for Gibson Les Paul I get 63 results, if I do a search on for Fender Stratocaster I get 62 results.

    For me, the Gibson Les Paul is an iconic guitar from an iconic brand. Same as the Stratocaster. The majority of my heroes played them (Allman, Clapton, Page, Green, Gibbons etc.) and they sound, in my opinion, amazing...

    Sure, you might come across some poorly made or sounding ones... Put it back on the shelf and try another one. I tested out 30 Stratocasters before I eventually settled on the one I liked the most when I bought it in the states a couple of years back. That said, what doesn't turn me on or feel right for me might do the complete opposite for someone else.

    All that said, I don't have a Les Paul at the moment but hopefully someday I'll be able to scrape the sheckles together but I'm happy with what I have at the moment.


  • #86
    Ravelleman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,635 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ravelleman


    I don´t think it´s really fair to call some of the posts off topic. Conversations evolve and comparisons are made so it´s all valid, especially if the OP is responding to them as well.

    MilanPan!c wanted to know why so many peolple sell Les Pauls. Most of us seem to think that it´s actually linked to why people buy them in the first place! So talking about other brands and other forms of marketing strikes me as being entirely fair and on topic.


  • #87
    seanwhite20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 404 ✭✭seanwhite20


    Dont think anyone has mentioned the new LP standards, which are amazing...That new neck profile is just unreal. When I was buying one I tried quite a lot, as you do before forking out such an amount...I have to say they were all very good. now the finishes were all very different, but overall they were all good.

    Now on the other hand I know a lad who bought a standard in 05. At the time he tried literally hundreds of them. And there were a lot of dogs in there, like i mean with really basic things wrong. For example, running his hand along the underside of one of them he could feel sawdust under the lacquer!eek.gif I also remember him telling me the binding on a lot of them had to have been done by someone who was half pissed! ha

    Of course there was one absolute beast which he still owns and will take to the grave.

    The point im making is they seem to be a hell of a lot more consistent now.They took a lot of stick in the last few years in forums all over the world for putting out such inconsistent instruments and I think they've finally sorted it out.

    Having said all that, there is a gibson cult out there for sure. Because im not the biggest guy, I always stayed away from LP's because I just wouldn't have managed that weight for 2 hrs onstage..But when I tried the new ones (which are chambered) I was delighted I could finally get one that would be comfortable. However the cult will tell you these are not proper LP's. They are just brainwashed idiots imo. I honestly think the newer ones are far superior to a lot of the old ones.

    As for why so many are for sale, Im guessing that's mostly down to people losing their jobs and being forced to sell.


  • #88
    Ravelleman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,635 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ravelleman


    Yeah, in the last couple of years they invested in a PLEK machine so the nut cutting and the fret levelling has gotten a lot better.


  • #89
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    seanwhite20 wrote: »
    Dont think anyone has mentioned the new LP standards, which are amazing...That new neck profile is just unreal. When I was buying one I tried quite a lot, as you do before forking out such an amount...I have to say they were all very good. now the finishes were all very different, but overall they were all good.

    Now on the other hand I know a lad who bought a standard in 05. At the time he tried literally hundreds of them. And there were a lot of dogs in there, like i mean with really basic things wrong. For example, running his hand along the underside of one of them he could feel sawdust under the lacquer!eek.gif I also remember him telling me the binding on a lot of them had to have been done by someone who was half pissed! ha

    Of course there was one absolute beast which he still owns and will take to the grave.

    The point im making is they seem to be a hell of a lot more consistent now.They took a lot of stick in the last few years in forums all over the world for putting out such inconsistent instruments and I think they've finally sorted it out.

    Having said all that, there is a gibson cult out there for sure. Because im not the biggest guy, I always stayed away from LP's because I just wouldn't have managed that weight for 2 hrs onstage..But when I tried the new ones (which are chambered) I was delighted I could finally get one that would be comfortable. However the cult will tell you these are not proper LP's. They are just brainwashed idiots imo. I honestly think the newer ones are far superior to a lot of the old ones.

    As for why so many are for sale, Im guessing that's mostly down to people losing their jobs and being forced to sell.

    And just think people paid over a grand for lots of pretty lame guitars.... For years. And now people sell them on Adverts for 1500 euro.

    Sigh.


  • #90
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Considering some of the most valuable strats Hendrix's and Claptons, we're made by them taking the best bits of a number of guitars and making one quitar out of them. The 3 bolt strat era.

    But this is old news. The solution was already found


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  • #91
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,741 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    BostonB wrote: »
    Considering some of the most valuable strats Hendrix's and Claptons, we're made by them taking the best bits of a number of guitars and making one quitar out of them. The 3 bolt strat era.

    But this is old news. The solution was already found

    That's perfectly fine for a strat when you can swap necks and bodys like there's no tomorrow, but re-gluing and setting a Les Paul neck is a different story altogether


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