If Les Pauls are so great, then why...

MilanPan!c

If Les Pauls are so great, then why are there always dozens of them for sale on every sale site online? And in every used guitar shop in the world...?

I've personally played probably close to a hundred. Some are great, most are very very mediocre. Some awful. A few have been genius. But, they're soooooo variable. Even two made the same year, same model, same bits, same everything, can sound and feel quite different.

And they're soooooo widely available. No shortage of LPs.

So, is it just the "branding"?

What do you guys think?

partyatmygaff

Replace LP with Stratocaster and you'll still have the same point.

There's nothing bad about LPs. It's just that they're a very common guitar (Much like the Strat).

firefly08

I've personally played probably close to a hundred. Some are great, most are very very mediocre. Some awful. A few have been genius. But, they're soooooo variable. Even two made the same year, same model, same bits, same everything, can sound and feel quite different.

Wow I never realized there was that much variation in them. I suppose I haven't played that many of them. I'll admit there is a certain pull from the brand name and the looks, which would be enough to make me pick a LP over a similar quality guitar even if it cost a bit more. But that only accounts for a slight difference. Mostly, their popular because they're great, and they're expensive mostly because they're made in the US.

MilanPan!c

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Replace LP with Stratocaster and you'll still have the same point.

There's nothing bad about LPs. It's just that they're a very common guitar (Much like the Strat).

Agreed, but at least you can get a decent strat for less than a grand. A decent LP is really at least 1400.

And there's soooooo many better LP style guitars for a lot less, for much better quality and sound.

MilanPan!c

firefly08 wrote: »

Wow I never realized there was that much variation in them. I suppose I haven't played that many of them. I'll admit there is a certain pull from the brand name and the looks, which would be enough to make me pick a LP over a similar quality guitar even if it cost a bit more. But that only accounts for a slight difference. Mostly, their popular because they're great, and they're expensive mostly because they're made in the US.

If you play a lot of guitars you'll prolly come to the conclusion that they're not THAT great. I mean, my 850 euro YAMAHA MSG is better than 90% of the LPs I've played (and people dont sell MSGs either, cause they rock, unlike LPs which are sold all the time).

My Yamaha SG2000 is better than 98% of LPs I've played. It kills and I mean destroys things like the Slash LP I played and recorded with recently. For example.

Squidgy Black

See there's a hell of a lot of Les Pauls in circulation, and they're so pricey 'cause of Gibson's ridiculous pricing methods. The majority of people selling them are usually upgrading, or have more expensive guitars and need the cash, and this is the least versatile.

Don't get me wrong, I love les pauls, just not Gibson.

firefly08

If you play a lot of guitars you'll prolly come to the conclusion that they're not THAT great. I mean, my 850 euro YAMAHA MSG is better than 90% of the LPs I've played (and people dont sell MSGs either, cause they rock, unlike LPs which are sold all the time).

My Yamaha SG2000 is better than 98% of LPs I've played. It kills and I mean destroys things like the Slash LP I played and recorded with recently. For example.

and they're so pricey 'cause of Gibson's ridiculous pricing methods.

Yeah there does seem to be something seriously wrong with the way Gibson stuff is priced, especially in Ireland. My Les Paul cost me $800 brand new. That was and is the normal selling price for the Studio model. For some reason, a smooth lacquer finish and some plastic trim adds $500 to the price in the US (but nothing to the sound). Back home, weeks after buying it, I went into a well known music shop in Dublin and saw the exact same guitar for about 1100 euros, while the fancy Standard models were up around the 1400 mark as you say. It is ridiculous, I'll agree. But then I have seen my model more recently for around the 800 euro mark. For the Irish market, I think 800 euro is a good price for that guitar.

ball ox

Can't stand 'em. I've yet to pick one up that doesn't feel like a boat oar hanging out of a cavity block. Horrible yokes.

-=al=-

Who needs oars :pac:

<snip>

Love the sound of a LP but hate the weight and clunkyness all the same... It's nice to have one... all be it not a fancy pants one but one I like enough

firefly08

Can't stand 'em. I've yet to pick one up that doesn't feel like a boat oar hanging out of a cavity block. Horrible yokes.

Haha classic comment. I have to hand it to you... I don't use the term "lol" often, but literally LOL!

The funny thing is when you compare the weights and neck profiles of various guitars they vary by only the smallest amounts, but it makes a huge difference to how they feel. Even the Epiphones feel totally different to me.

punchdrunk

SG all the way!! :pac:

gerarda

The only concern I would have is the fragile neck, to me, tele's and strats just seem to be a more sturdy guitar. Plus I think a lot of guys buy them (because of the branding and popularity) and immediately expect to sound like their idols, it doesn't happen so they get fed up and decide to move it on.

CianRyan

I've played so many manky dirty feeling LP's and 2 off the top of my head that I've actually liked.
They weight a tone but I don't mind that so much as the necks feel all wrong to me and they give very little feedback(playing wise, not sound wise).
It could be that I'm so use to Strat's but a good LP is like hen's teeth.

I've found the same with PRS's.
A mate a Custom 22 which feel alright at best and I recorded with a Custom 24 a year or so back and I found, like the LP, there wasn't a lot of playability.
They feel like tools rather than instruments.
You work with them, you don't play them.

Might sound like utter bull**** that us guitarists are so famous for but in my 9+ years if playing, 2 good LP's is a bit shocking.

rcaz

gerarda wrote: »

Plus I think a lot of guys buy them (because of the branding and popularity) and immediately expect to sound like their idols, it doesn't happen so they get fed up and decide to move it on.

That's exactly it. People want to be like Jimmy Page, Slash, Gary Moore, Jeff Beck, Mick Jones, whoever else. When they realise they have to be very good at music for that to happen, they sell up :pac:

I don't get why more people don't realise you can do all that stuff and more with a Hohner Telecaster copy :cool:



(hlysht that smiley is just like Prince! :P )

Ravelleman

As I say here frequently enough, I always find the whole adverts.ie expert "Gibsons don't lose their value" thing a little irksome. The fact is that most Gibsons take a big hit on their new price if you try to sell them. But I suppose that most people have to assign an arbitrary value to their instrument in the hope of leveraging a decent trade or just to avoid lowballing chumps.

I think the real reason that we see so many Les Paul and Strats for sale second hand is a combination of the simple fact that they are in vast supply and other psychological factors, where people treat objects as something that can create an experience rather than just a functional tool to make music.

People buy Les Pauls and Strats because they are iconic instruments and the mere fact that they own one and can play one brings them closer to the musicians and the lifestyles that the idolise. Once you own the instrument the truth is often quite different. A Strat you may have, but sound like Clapton you certainly do not. You may also have a '52 RI Tele that looks the real deal but find that the 7.25" neck radius really isn't that comfortable or 'progressive'.

Ultimately most people probably enjoy imagining themselves with a nice instrument more than actually playing it properly.

So, as the internet allows us to research these instruments, compare all of the features, discover that we hate Les Pauls and wail on Gibson QC or whatever, it's all just part of the process of consumption and probably a reflection of the society we live in.

Ravelleman

punchdrunk wrote: »

SG all the way!! :pac:

I just bought me a sweet Robbie Krieger SG the other day actually.

Elaborating on the psychological factors I was talking about, I think one of the other great appeals of the Gibson brand might actually be the very fact that their instruments are so variable and frequently so frustrating.

Many people on fora such as this one seem to enjoy the process of looking for a nice Gibson - the one that speaks to them above all others. People seem to like the slight roughness between the binding and the neck, the sticky nitro that checks over time, the care that the have to put into bring out the best of the guitar and maintaining, the delicate necks and other uniquely Gibson features. It's almost like esoteric knowledge that one discovers and cherishes.

When people compare Gibsons with other brands, frequently far-eastern imports, they see personality in the instrument. They project their values and emotions on to the instrument and see something more organic than the Chinese copy with its abalone binding, exotic burls and inch thick poly coating.

People like the search; the struggle because it's all an experience. Perhaps buying a Xaviere or an Agile just isn't the same.

firefly08

Ravelleman wrote: »

I just bought me a sweet Robbie Krieger SG the other day actually.

Elaborating on the psychological factors I was talking about, I think one of the other great appeals of the Gibson brand might actually be the very fact that their instruments are so variable and frequently so frustrating.

Many people on fora such as this one seem to enjoy the process of looking for a nice Gibson - the one that speaks to them above all others. People seem to like the slight roughness between the binding and the neck, the sticky nitro that checks over time, the care that the have to put into bring out the best of the guitar and maintaining, the delicate necks and other uniquely Gibson features. It's almost like esoteric knowledge that one discovers and cherishes.

When people compare Gibsons with other brands, frequently far-eastern imports, they see personality in the instrument. They project their values and emotions on to the instrument and see something more organic than the Chinese copy with its abalone binding, exotic burls and inch thick poly coating.

People like the search; the struggle because it's all an experience. Perhaps buying a Xaviere or an Agile just isn't the same.

You're spot on there I think. Go to the motors forum and ask about Alfa Romeo, you'll find the same thing. It's not about quality or any measurable characteristic - it's all about how the thing makes you feel.

Malice

Personally I have never liked the feel of Les Pauls so their popularity baffles me.

Miklos

Les Paul to me are very meh, unless they have p90s. Les Paul Juniors, however, now there is a guitar I can get behind!

BostonB

I'm guessing here but isn't the difference in cost a lot to do with how they are made. Fenders were fundamentally designed to be mass produced, cheaper woods, alder, maple, flat bodies, blot on neck. Whereas the Les Paul isn't, expensive timber mahogany (which varies a lot) is a lot heavier, curved top, set in next, bindings, inlays, maple cap, flamed finishes etc.

Squidgy Black

BostonB wrote: »

I'm guessing here but isn't the difference in cost a lot to do with how they are made. Fenders were fundamentally designed to be mass produced, cheaper woods, alder, maple, flat bodies, blot on neck. Whereas the Les Paul isn't, expensive timber mahogany (which varies a lot) is a lot heavier, curved top, set in next, bindings, inlays, maple cap, flamed finishes etc.

Nope, they're all mass produced, and the quality control is terrible. You pay for the name, not the quality sadly.

Ravelleman

stetyrrell wrote: »

Nope, they're all mass produced, and the quality control is terrible. You pay for the name, not the quality sadly.

That wasn´t the case back in the day. What Gibson have over any other brand is old-world charm. Fender certainly don´t have the same history of true craftsmanship. Whether or not Gibson still possess it is another case, but they certainly did.

This dude has it right, if you can spare 9 minutes of your life.

feylya

-=al=-, there is no need for that picture here. If you wish to make jokes about current events, may I suggest After Hours. You have been warned about off topic posts previously. Next time, you will be taking a break from this forum

darrenw5094

Malice wrote: »

Personally I have never liked the feel of Les Pauls so their popularity baffles me.

They look cool though. I can't picture this gason with another guitar. Well, maybe a BC Rich Mockingbird.;)



Just like Strats, the LP has it's own distinctive tone though.

ball ox

"Just like Strats, the LP has it's own distinctive tone though.'

It's probably just a matter of taste I guess.The thought of a nice strat played through a nice clean tube amp that's just about breaking up is one of the most organicly beautifull sounds to my ear.
A clean les Paul however sounds to me like any other humbucking guitar - not organic, lacks dinension, needs gain.

Horses for courses and all that

Malice

darrenw5094 wrote: »

They look cool though.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess. I've never really liked the look of them either .

darrenw5094

ball ox wrote: »

"Just like Strats, the LP has it's own distinctive tone though.'

It's probably just a matter of taste I guess.The thought of a nice strat played through a nice clean tube amp that's just about breaking up is one of the most organicly beautifull sounds to my ear.
A clean les Paul however sounds to me like any other humbucking guitar - not organic, lacks dinension, needs gain.

Horses for courses and all that

Yep......LP into a Marshall crunch channel is the business.

Welease

Going against the grain here.. but I've never been particularly bothered by how a guitar feels in a shop (most feel uncomfortable to me, especially if the neck radius, size, strings etc. are different), and am quiet happy to purchase online..

Each and every guitar I own will be setup by me for me.. and setup in a way that feels comfortable for the way I play.

Most complaints that I have seen about quality control are simply a matter of setup (although of course not all are.. I have an LP standard which arrived with a high fret which should not happen), and while a shop should have a guitar setup to a average standard, it would be nigh on impossible for them to setup a configuration that suits every individual style. The more people understand how to setup their guitars, the less "issues" they will likely have.

Just my 2c.

gerarda

Interesting thread - personally I do like LP's but I just don't think they are worth the asking price.

Ravelleman

Welease wrote: »

Going against the grain here.. but I've never been particularly bothered by how a guitar feels in a shop (most feel uncomfortable to me, especially if the neck radius, size, strings etc. are different), and am quiet happy to purchase online..

I get your point here but certain things like fretboard radius, fret size etc are simply no-goers for me. No matter how I set up a guitar with a 7.25" fretboard radius and vintage frets I just won´t like it. The fact is that 10-12" radii with medium-jumbo frets just feel so much more comfortable to me.

But I understand what you mean. The in-shop experience of guitar is undoubtedly different to what you discover in the comfort of you own home, with your amps, your effects and you favourite picks. I prefer to look for features I know I´ll like, check videos, try one if I can find one in Dublin - normally I can´t - and then buy online. There is a risk involved but such is the nature of living on an island.

Welease

Ravelleman wrote: »

I get your point here but certain things like fretboard radius, fret size etc are simply no-goers for me. No matter how I set up a guitar with a 7.25" fretboard radius and vintage frets I just won´t like it. The fact is that 10-12" radii with medium-jumbo frets just feel so much more comfortable to me.

But I understand what you mean. The in-shop experience of guitar is undoubtedly different to what you discover in the comfort of you own home, with your amps, your effects and you favourite picks. I prefer to look for features I know I´ll like, check videos, try one if I can find one in Dublin - normally I can´t - and then buy online. There is a risk involved but such is the nature of living on an island.

Oh absolutely.. on radius, size, shape etc.. Some guitars just don't suit..

I was just talking about guitars that do suit.. If you know how to setup a guitar then in many cases the perceived difference between a good LP (or any guitar) and a poor LP can be non existent (although as with all things involving natural materials.. there can be poor instruments).