Poisoning/Shooting of Birds of Prey - Please read guidelines in first post

Kess73 · 31-12-2011 01:39PM

Traonach wrote: »

If BN is correct and the birds died from a warfarin type poison. Then the birds would have died from secondary poisoning.

Anticoagulants (rodenticide) is usually in grain form. The Kites would never eat it in this form. An unlucky mouse/rat eats the poison and then a Kite eats the poisoned mouse (seconary poisoning). The Kite is then poisoned. A kite doesn't weigh alot so it doesn't take much to kill him.

The 1st generation of anticoagulants (warfarin) were less harmful to birds like Kites, Barn owl. The 2nd generation like Flocomafen (Storm) are much more harmful. They are more toxic at lower doses. Unfortunately 2nd generation anticoagulants are more widespread.

Barn owls in Ireland are on the verge of extinction in Ireland because of 2nd generation anticoagulants.:mad:

I went up to Donabate to see the Red Kite, it so depressing to know that some of the birds I saw are now murdered.

I know the difference between poisoning and secondary poisoning in relation of what the terms mean. What I was saying to OpenYourEyes was my understanding of how a dead animal's death is determined to be either primary or secondary poisoning.

It really is depressing though to read about poisonings in this country, and then wonder if any of the birds were birds you saw before. I got to see a number of the Irish released red kites whilst they were still in Wales and I can remember leaving with a big grin on my face at the thought of those birds becoming the source of wild Irish born Kites. Just sickening to think that as well as the birds that are known to have been killed that there may be more bodies out there that will never be found and whose remains may cause even more deaths, not to mention any other poor animal that met the same nasty fate thanks to the lowlifes who put the poison out.

BTW how is your vixen? Has she resurfaced and in good condition?

Kess73 · 31-12-2011 01:42PM

Traonach wrote: »

It's the average person who's to blame as well. People who find rats in their garden and then they basically carpet bomb the whole place with rat poison with no regard to the effects on other wildlife. It's a painful way for the rodents to die as well.

100% agree. If rats become a problem, people should either use a method that kills the rodent quickly, or use catch and release traps.

Birdnuts · 31-12-2011 01:45PM

googsy wrote: »

Very sad news but not unexpected... it's a catch 22 situation, many birds of prey rely on rodents as a food source, but local authorities / certain farm enterprises have to control the populations of rodents for health & safety / food preservation reasons... from personal experience local authorities or any other party carrying out this work don't give a sh1t about the consequences on local wildlife... it's just a job task... get rid of the rat infestations is the priority...

.

Yes - no one disputes that rodent infestation have to be dealt with but proper disposal of dead rodents in an integral part of that approach. Quiet apart from killing beneficial wildlife it can also lead to bad odours and fly problems in treated areas. Increasing rodenticide resistance among rats/mice is another issue. Its why I use traps myself.

googsy · 31-12-2011 01:59PM

I agree with you Traonach that the average joe is to blame aswell... not disputing any of what you guys are saying... just seems by the amount found dead over the last few weeks that the source is a major rodent infestation area... rodent baits should be banned from sale to the general public anyway and more stringent controls be put in place that takes into account the risks to local wildlife by people that are tasked with removing infestations, be they farmers, county councils or pest control companies.

Birdnuts, you cannot control 100% the disposal of dead rodents when poison baits are used... they basically crawl off to die.... and that could be anywhere..

Birdnuts · 31-12-2011 02:17PM

googsy wrote: »

Birdnuts, you cannot control 100% the disposal of dead rodents when poison baits are used... they basically crawl off to die.... and that could be anywhere..

I don't dispute that Goosey - I'm just saying that if proper proceedures are followed (that are also in the interest of the householder, business etc.) then the problem can at least be minimized.

PS: On that note, DCC should send out a bulletein to householders,businesses, pest control companies etc. advising them on best practice.

googsy · 31-12-2011 02:30PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

I don't dispute that Goosey - I'm just saying that if proper proceedures are followed (that are also in the interest of the householder, business etc.) then the problem can at least be minimized.

PS: On that note, DCC should send out a bulletein to householders,businesses, pest control companies etc. advising them on best practice.

It's mostly down to ignorance and agree that more information should be put out there... it's a funny thing sometimes I hear at work "oh god I saw a rat in the garden" shock / horror !! and to paraphrase a previous poster "they carpet bomb the place"... rather than just sticking out a rat trap... I guess that's too much hassle in today's lazy ass'd society ?

You raised one interesting point regarding the decline in raptors versus the rise in rodents.. I remember quite a few years ago we had a problem with Myxomatosis in rabbits around Dublin Airport ... there was a rumor around the local area at the time that this was purposely released by Dublin Airport every year to keep the rabbit numbers down around their lands... not sure about this but remember all the rabbits around Dublin Airport had Mixi.... it stopped a few years ago and the rabbit population exploded... a few years ago when the buzzards arrived in and the foxes came back ( not too many shooters around anymore ) eventually the rabbit population receded and it's now back at a healthy balance.... nature has a great way of balancing itself out if allowed to do so.... although that's probably a perfect world I'm talking about there lol...

recedite · 31-12-2011 03:18PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

It also raises serious issues for other species like Owls,Kestrels and other species that feed on rodents in this part of the country. (

Sadly it's about 10 years since I last saw or heard an owl, but I see kestrels, very frequently, buzzards and sprawks occasionally; maybe rats are a bit too big for the Kestrel's menu?

In regard to Storm bait, I do think its too freely available. Most rat problems disappear with improved hygiene. I keep hens, and its very obvious that if food is routinely left lying around on the ground overnight, rats will soon appear. If not, they won't. Last year in the snow 2 desperate ones appeared from somewhere else and could be seen circling around outside the house in broad daylight. They were easy to trap in that situation. I dropped the bodies into the septic tank, its supposed to be a great tonic for the old anaerobic bacteria, hard pressed as they are with all the washing powder and dishwasher tablets ending up down there

Traonach · 31-12-2011 06:04PM

Kess73 wrote: »

I know the difference between poisoning and secondary poisoning in relation of what the terms mean. What I was saying to OpenYourEyes was my understanding of how a dead animal's death is determined to be either primary or secondary poisoning.

Sorry Kess, I misunderstood you:o. I haven't seen my vixen in a while, but the food I leave out for her at night is always gone in the morning. I haven't seen anybody lamping lately.

Birdnuts · 31-12-2011 06:26PM

Just thinking about the matter today and i recall reading about similiar incidents in both Scotland and Spain within the last few years of large numbers of birds dieing together in a short space of time from secondary rodent poisoning.
In the Scottish incident 10 nests were wiped by adult birds bringing contaminated rodents back to the young chicks. In Spain Red Kite numbers have fallen sharply in the last decade due to the use of poison to control vole infestations in certain crops. Unfortunatly it appears that Red Kites are probably the most vulnerable of all our raptors to poisoing due to their scavanging habits and preference for rodents as live prey. This is going to be a major challenge for populations like the one in Fingal that are exposed to these threats:(.

E39MSport · 31-12-2011 08:23PM

I've been thinking too.

Is this not the fault of the breeding project?

Surely they should have considered this and in part the deaths can be attributed lack of due dilligence or the risk they have taken in the knowledge that secondary poisoning would be a problem.

Birdnuts · 31-12-2011 08:39PM

E39MSport wrote: »

I've been thinking too.

Is this not the fault of the breeding project?

Surely they should have considered this and in part the deaths can be attributed lack of due dilligence or the risk they have taken in the knowledge that secondary poisoning would be a problem.

Certainly a major review of this phase of the project will have to be carried out ASAP - they probably did expect some losses from this source but certainly not on the scale that has occured recently. The relative success of projects in Wicklow and Down and the presence of a robust buzzard population in Fingal possibly lulled people into a false sense of security to the extent that this risk-factor was underestimated

E39MSport · 31-12-2011 08:41PM

I admit to using poisons for a brief period in the garden but I never considered the entire system and this type of news (and the good info/chat on here) has put that to an abrupt stop....

People need to think. Lesson learned here anyway.

Birdnuts · 31-12-2011 08:54PM

E39MSport wrote: »

I admit to using poisons for a brief period in the garden but I never considered the entire system and this type of news (and the good info/chat on here) has put that to an abrupt stop....

People need to think. Lesson learned here anyway.

Good point - I think most people have probably over applied certain pesticides like slug pellets, aphid sprays etc. during gardening in the past. As we gain more info on the sort of short and long-term negative effects of such practices on numerious beneficial species like Hover flies, bees, hedgehogs etc. then it is imperative we learn quickly from past mistakes and adjust our behaviour accordingly to minimize such threats.

E39MSport · 31-12-2011 08:58PM

Sadly I was poisoning Rats but no more.

Cardinal Richelieu · 01-01-2012 07:29PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

I don't dispute that Goosey - I'm just saying that if proper proceedures are followed (that are also in the interest of the householder, business etc.) then the problem can at least be minimized.

PS: On that note, DCC should send out a bulletein to householders,businesses, pest control companies etc. advising them on best practice.

Why should DCC send out a bulletin? Its North Co Dublin.

whyulittle · 03-01-2012 04:04PM

Press release from GET. No mention of it on their own website or FB page.

http://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2011/12/30/eight-red-kites-found-poisoned-in-ireland-since-november/

E39MSport · 03-01-2012 04:08PM

Depressing.

Traonach · 08-01-2012 07:18PM

http://www.goldeneagle.ie/news_viewnews.php?x=3&z=44&f=3&news_id=9&start=0

recedite · 08-01-2012 11:42PM

I wonder how many of the poisoned rats/mice were running around (alive) when they were caught by the raptors. There must be a lot of rodents around that have ingested a non-lethal dose. Even after they come back to the bait for more, and pick up a lethal dose, it will take time for them to die of internal haemorrhaging. They are probably easier for the birds to catch in that condition.

Apparently brodifacoum accumulates in the liver, unlike the older warfarin poisons, and remains toxic for several months. Its easy to see how this would build up in the predator's system, just like DDT did in the 1960's.

marlin vs · 24-01-2012 12:49PM

While out on Sunday morning I put up a kestrel about 20 yrds in front of me, it flew about 10 yrds and landed ina tree,so I took out my camera to get a picture and walked as close as I could get while taking pictures I coulnt believe what happened next as the bird just died in front of me in the tree,whether it had been poisoned or what I don't know,but if it was poisoned it made me wonder how many more have been.

E39MSport · 24-01-2012 01:28PM

Have you reported it?

Birdnuts · 24-01-2012 02:19PM

There have been a number of reports of dead Kestrels being picked up around the country in recent years - in nearly every case secondary poisoning from the consumption of affected rodents appears to be the cause. As had been highlighted with the Red Kites in North Dublin, these second generation rodenticides are doing signficant damge to beneficial wildlife that prey on rodents:(. I strongly suspect this is the case with the bird Marlin picked up.

PS: To be sure though of the cause of death I would submit the carcass to the NPWS who will get it tested at the state lab - this will further contribute to the work of other researchers who are currently trying to access the exact scale and nature of such threats to our native raptors and other wildlife.

googsy · 24-01-2012 08:48PM

That's sad about the Kestrel Marlin, one of my favorite birds of prey.... just on the NPWS website there reading the EU Birds Directive, if you look at the derogations to this directive it's interesting to note that certain species of pigeons - feral, wood & the collared dove can be killed by poisoning under the control of the NPWS.... surely there would be some "collateral damage" in all of this.... my dad used to be a market gardener and he never had to resort to poisoning pigeons.... can't understand this at all....

There's another "derogation" on air safety.... from my reading of it ( correct me if I'm wrong here ) any method of killing is allowed on the listed species.... I see the Lapwing on there.... taught their numbers were dwindling... ?

Anyway link to my waffling above is below...

http://www.npws.ie/legislationandconventions/irishlaw/eubirdsdirectivederogations/

marlin vs · 24-01-2012 09:09PM

E39MSport wrote: »

Have you reported it?

Sure have,I e-mailed an NPWS ranger and still waiting for a reply.

Birdnuts · 24-01-2012 09:43PM

googsy wrote: »

That's sad about the Kestrel Marlin, one of my favorite birds of prey.... just on the NPWS website there reading the EU Birds Directive, if you look at the derogations to this directive it's interesting to note that certain species of pigeons - feral, wood & the collared dove can be killed by poisoning under the control of the NPWS.... surely there would be some "collateral damage" in all of this.... my dad used to be a market gardener and he never had to resort to poisoning pigeons.... can't understand this at all....

There's another "derogation" on air safety.... from my reading of it ( correct me if I'm wrong here ) any method of killing is allowed on the listed species.... I see the Lapwing on there.... taught their numbers were dwindling... ?

Anyway link to my waffling above is below...

http://www.npws.ie/legislationandconventions/irishlaw/eubirdsdirectivederogations/[/QUOTE]

Goosey,

Those NPWS licenses to use poison bait against pigeons as mentioned in the derogations are very rarely issued/granted by the state - and any that are typically concern the control of feral pigeons inside large warehouses. The conditions also include for the collection and safe disposal of all carcasses. In any case most pest control companies use airguns and falcons for such work. It certainly does not represent the same threat as secondary poisoning from the consumption of rodents. The following explains things more clearly as regards the control of pigeons etc. under those derogations, this one is for Leinster but they are the same for other provinces

http://www.npws.ie/media/npws/publications/legaldocs/Declaration%20for%20Leinster%20Sept%202011.pdf

PS: The air safety derogation referring to authorized personnel at airfields/airports is also rarely used(refers to shooting and trapping only) since nearly all these places employ either various scaring devices or falconry teams to keep birds off runways.

whyulittle · 30-01-2012 07:13PM

Even more bad news, a breeding bird this time.

Ninth red kite bird found poisoned

Friday, January 27, 2012 - 03:07 PM

A ninth red kite has been found dead from illegal poisoning, park rangers have said.

The breeding female bird, which had been nesting on a farm near Redcross, Co Wicklow, was found near Brittas Bay late last year.

It is the latest red kite killed by poison in the county, while there have been similar deaths in Kildare and a suspected poisoning in Limerick since the re-introduction project began in 2007.

Dr Marc Ruddock, Red Kite project manager, said it was a demoralising loss.

"These birds are specialist scavengers, that's why they are finding these food sources which are sadly poisoned. They are designed to clean up the countryside," he said.

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ninth-red-kite-bird-found-poisoned-537576.html#.TyP54OzmvDE.twitter#ixzz1kxzDLABm

Bsal · 30-01-2012 08:49PM

I feel like crying everytime I read one of these

steddyeddy · 31-01-2012 12:54AM

Whats the response been to this? I got in contact with a few government deptpartments offering me and some other scientists services for free. If this bird was tagged, if the poison is known and the pharmokinetics of the poison is known then where the poison was ingested could be roughly aproximated.

recedite · 31-01-2012 10:08PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

If this bird was tagged, if the poison is known and the pharmokinetics of the poison is known then where the poison was ingested could be roughly aproximated.

Only if the tag was a GPS tag, which some of the eagles have, but is that just a plastic ID tag in the photo?

marlin vs · 01-02-2012 12:21AM

marlin vs wrote: »

Sure have,I e-mailed an NPWS ranger and still waiting for a reply.

Well I got my reply and they are not interested,as they recon a Kestrel dosent eat carrion so more than likely was not poisoned, so what if a rat or mouse or whatever was tainted with poison and was still alive and it was taken by the bird,makes me wonder why I reported it.:mad:

Poisoning/Shooting of Birds of Prey - Please read guidelines in first post

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