LAMPING DEER

BryanL · 22-01-2012 01:38AM

Hunter21 wrote: »

Great input to a discussion by you **clap clap**

It's the best input in this thread,it works! But all it gets it a sarcastic Clap?

The rest is just dreamed up plans for tagging, revenue chasing game dealers or the Gardai minding deer on people's leases. Other people solving the problem for you. They will never happen.

You want to stop poaching, shoot the deer yourself.

Guys are posting on here about 20 deer in a field yet they take 2-3 a season?
That only attracts poaching, makes it simple and profitable?
Farmers on farming land want deer kept at very low rates and they won't stand in the way of poaching if that's what it takes to reduce deer numbers.

Too many "Stalkers" want to maintain big herds of deer on someone elses farmland, so they can take a trophy each year without getting their boots wet. Do that and you'll encourage poaching.

There's plenty of deer in Ireland if you are prepared to look.

Hunter21 · 22-01-2012 01:11PM

If everyone had your attitude BryanL numbers would decline rapidly like a stone in water. Shooting everything is not going to solve nothing.
Us hunters don't use farmers land to make herds thrive, that's nonsense. Most people I know take out deer specifically to reduce numbers breeding.

It's this attitude- 20 deer kill all 20 is what will kill the population.
Responsible management between farmers and hunters is the key.

Grizzly 45 · 22-01-2012 03:49PM

Right bunch of good points here.
INMHO I think our biggest problem here is that illegal game harvesting for profit,I wont even degin it with the term poaching,as any sane poacher will only take what he needs out of an area and not destroy a natural resource that benefits him.

Our main problem seems to be the middleman, the game dealer. Like a Fence in the criminal world.He needs goods to sell on at enormus markup.
So he is offering a supposedly ludicrious price to the harvesters here for the meat...TBH its BUNKUM!!!! :eek:

We are being paid on average the going European rate for carcasses.
What is the problem is the mark up on the game dealers side onwards before it lands on your plate in a high class resturant.As it goes up the chain it is becoming more costly as everyone is getting a bit of the profit for their overheads etc.Also,the Game dealer is left with a load of meat that he is selling at a loss belive it or not.Most people want only specific cuts like the sirloin ,saddle and easy small usable bits.A haunch from an ernormus stag wont even fit into a domestic oven anymore,and would feed a banquet.An average Irish family would be eating for a two week period on it and be sick of venison soon after.
I got a haunch of my local GD this sept for a trade in with a carcass,and I had to split it in three for Xmas.We were eating venison all Xmas week.:)

What is here is a dangerous perception on some people that deer =Megabucks!!!But when they are told the price of the carcass they realise it isnt profitable unless you are bringing in a mass of them to make any money on them.Hence I think you have these stories of lads bringing in trailer loads of deer to their dealers.Which begs the question,what are the dealers doing with all the meat they cant move that quick and their storage facilities are at capacity???

So ,if the "easy money" objective was removed ..IE the GD,and we could or had to sell onto the open market ourselves...With all the revelant hygenic regulations,facilities etc in place.And you having to take sole responsibility for the carcass intro into the food chain....How long would you think the "cowboy poacher "as I'll call them now on,would stay in busisness??
This is the situation in Europe at the moment.As a hunter you are entitled to sell your game to whomever.You are trained to inspect and certify and butcher out the game ,IF you have the revelant facilities in place which are up to EU standards,and cost a fair few bob.
This is where this disease and game handling cert from NARGC/HCAP is supposed to come in.
BUT its fatal flaw is...You still cant sell the game carcass straight into the food chain due to our NATIONAL Law overiding EU law..:( Euroccay doesnt work on all levels in Europe.This should benefit us stalkers,and if it did,I'd be the 1st to sign up for this course. But it doesnt and is self defeating of purpose,allowing busisness as usual with unscrouplous GDs and cowboy poachers to continue.

So IMO heres the choice...Do we continue to allow things to go as is,or do we insist in the legislation be changed that IF you want to sell game on the open market,and abolish the GD middle man, you can do so PROVIDED you have the certification and the facilities in place and make it mandatory that anyone irrespective has to do the Game handling/butchering course as a pre req for the stalking liscense,and its renewable every 10 years??? Take the easy money out of it,and the cowboy poacher will move on and leave it open to serious operatives to cull,gut and sell and take the rap if wrong genuine hunters.
My take on this.

garv123 · 22-01-2012 04:02PM

Grizz just about the first bits you mentioned, alot of the meet is going abroad and all the game dealer does is collect the carcasses and sell them on at probably tripple the price of what he paid the fella who shot the deer. They dont even have to skin the deer. So he's not having any waste.

hunterpajero · 22-01-2012 04:36PM

i saw on a catolgue that a game dealer gave me that venision was going for €25/kg

muff munch · 22-01-2012 04:38PM

BryanL wrote: »

It's the best input in this thread,it works! But all it gets it a sarcastic Clap?

The rest is just dreamed up plans for tagging, revenue chasing game dealers or the Gardai minding deer on people's leases. Other people solving the problem for you. They will never happen.

You want to stop poaching, shoot the deer yourself.

Guys are posting on here about 20 deer in a field yet they take 2-3 a season?
That only attracts poaching, makes it simple and profitable?
Farmers on farming land want deer kept at very low rates and they won't stand in the way of poaching if that's what it takes to reduce deer numbers.

Too many "Stalkers" want to maintain big herds of deer on someone elses farmland, so they can take a trophy each year without getting their boots wet. Do that and you'll encourage poaching.

There's plenty of deer in Ireland if you are prepared to look.

thats a crock of shXt.if everyone had that attitude what would you have left to shoot.every hunter knows to keep the farmers happy you have to be shooting a few deer every season thus keeping the numbers down not wipeing out the population.whats encorageing poaching is the money thats involved in venison now.a local gun dealer told me that he knows of lads that never shot deer in their life and who are now shootin deer just because of the money thats involved in it and theyre getting 10 or so deer every weak.what if every one of us was doing this? you do the maths its a lot of deer every weak.this aint right.if there was a limit on how many deer could be sold of each hunters licence every season this would dramatically help.ya ther is plenty of deer in ireland AT THE MOMENT but if things stay going the way theyre going there wont be for long.

muff munch · 22-01-2012 04:43PM

hunterpajero wrote: »

i saw on a catolgue that a game dealer gave me that venision was going for €25/kg

thats some bucks they are the boys who are makeing the money,and they are only paying 2 a kg.

hunterpajero · 22-01-2012 04:46PM

€1.60 chest shot €1.90 neck shot thats what the lad in skehnarinky is payin,same lad that gave me the catolgue

muff munch · 22-01-2012 04:58PM

theyre making some money for doing nothing.

Sparks · 22-01-2012 06:29PM

Seems to me that right now you have a choke point for illegal game harvesters in the form of the game dealers. Change the law so that people can sell directly to the food chain and you distribute the problem and make it harder to solve. Regulate the game dealers properly - and by that I just mean to actually enforce existing laws rather than doing anything fancy like changing anything - and it seems to me that you'd have a better chance at dealing with the problem.

johngalway · 22-01-2012 06:35PM

muff munch wrote: »

theyre making some money for doing nothing.

Hard to know, I'm sure they have their expenses too. I do know that when European regs came in regarding local butcher slaughterhouses both of the butchers in this village shut up that part of their operation and started buying in meat off trucks. It was the cost of the conversion that would have sunk them. There's a shed load of expensive regulations when you get into processing meat that ends up in the food chain in this country, not that I agree with a lot of it but that's how it is.

BryanL · 22-01-2012 07:43PM

muff munch wrote: »

thats a crock of shXt.if everyone had that attitude what would you have left to shoot.every hunter knows to keep the farmers happy you have to be shooting a few deer every season thus keeping the numbers down

Nope, you'd have to shoot a lot more than that just to keep numbers the same.

Shooting a few deer every season isn't enough for most farmers.
You were seeing 20 deer in a single field but yet you only shot 6-7 deer in 3 years? That's not enough to keep that population even stable.

20 deer in a single field by a main road? what bigger invite could you give poachers?

You should have shot a lot more of those deer and you might have stopped poachers wiping them out.
Bryan

Hunter21 · 22-01-2012 08:32PM

BryanL wrote: »

Nope, you'd have to shoot a lot more than that just to keep numbers the same.

Shooting a few deer every season isn't enough for most farmers.
You were seeing 20 deer in a single field but yet you only shot 6-7 deer in 3 years? That's not enough to keep that population even stable.

20 deer in a single field by a main road? what bigger invite could you give poachers?

You should have shot a lot more of those deer and you might have stopped poachers wiping them out.
Bryan

Just because a certain town has an alcohol problem and has loads of alcoholics doesn't mean you shut down every pub and leave the legit fella out in the cold. Strange example but it relates to what your saying, shooting all the deer is some cop out to solving poaching!

oats 2 · 22-01-2012 09:15PM

this debate rages on and on.its hard to know wat to think. changing laws to sell meat directly to the public wont help because wouldnt there still be game dealers to take meat off poachers? deer populations are constantly on the rise and are spreading to new areas all the time.farmers want them dead.end of story they want them removed from there grazing ground.they pay lots of money for fertilizer etc so they dont want deer eating valuble grass.so if someone he knows shoots deer under a lamp they really dont care. guards an wildlife rangers are not capable of monitoring this crime so thats waste of time.why they cant manage to do more is probly due to lack of funding for overtime/lack of staff.imo they really should be able to do more.do they not want confrontation or whats the reason.if there is so much poaching surely to god its possible to catch some few.
recently my relation called me up an asked me to manage some deer on his plantation.grand says i no problem il keep an eye.then he heard of some local lad that culls deer under lights so he phoned him up so this is wat yor up against.

deerhunter1 · 22-01-2012 10:06PM

Two lads caught allegedly lamping deer in Broadford Clare last week by Gardai, they said they were lamping foxes:D,one had a .270 the other a .308. Taken away in back of squad car. They were in an area I believe they had no permission and has a few red deer, with lamps (not the deer:rolleyes:), locals complaining over the lamping in the area, If true I hope they get done and licences revoked. They were caught around 7/730 in morning

fear tuath · 22-01-2012 10:23PM

deerhunter1 wrote: »

Two lads caught allegedly lamping deer in Broadford Clare last week by Gardai, they said they were lamping foxes:D,one had a .270 the other a .308. Taken away in back of squad car. They were in an area I believe they had no permission and has a few red deer, with lamps (not the deer:rolleyes:), locals complaining over the lamping in the area, If true I hope they get done and licences revoked. They were caught around 7/730 in morning

As a farmer and hunter living in that area I am sick of seeing lamps and every a....h....e driving around in their Jeeps from all areas.They get permission from one farmer then proceed to shoot everywhere.Latest is lamping just before dawn in one vehicle with no guns ,so the know where to go at daybreak.Then off to the game dealer,

Grizzly 45 · 23-01-2012 12:07AM

Sparks wrote: »

Seems to me that right now you have a choke point for illegal game harvesters in the form of the game dealers. Change the law so that people can sell directly to the food chain and you distribute the problem and make it harder to solve

Well we are in agreement the problem is the game dealers,but how so does it exacerbrate the problem ??After all,if you personally have to sell it onto the market,have to set up a proper facility to butcher out the carcass up to EU standards[costs money] do the certification [more money 400 euros at present],have to fill in paperwork stating you shot it,you certified it as clean and edible,and can get walloped with a massive fine for selling unfit carcasses or badly shot or illegally shot ones,you are responsible.IOW its traceable right back to you.The benefit is it costs alot to set up properly which cowboy poachers dont want to do to sell at that price which is the norm anyway.The reason it is selling out @25 euros a Kg,is the GD has the expense of the facilities,paperwork ,certification,advertisements ,insurance,etc to cover his costs as well.That 25 euros per Kg isnt pure profit.As well as competing with other Irish dealers,and farmed deer on the EU market,I'd say his profit is proably a fiver per kg if at that per season.Then what do they do in the off season??They have to have a stockpile to supply their contract.So if they break down the carcasses how do you know which one is genuine or poached??

. Regulate the game dealers properly - and by that I just mean to actually enforce existing laws rather than doing anything fancy like changing anything - and it seems to me that you'd have a better chance at dealing with the problem

.

This is the thing....:( What legislation can you get them on???Having a load of carcasses above their storage limits??What if they are broken down and in a freezer room,who is going to DNA match each piece to the original carcases to prove the GD had a few carcasses too many??

It would have to be proven that the dealer incited a person to go out and shoot deer by illegal means!!It would be a so shaky a case that I doubt anyone would prosecute or want to risk it.All the GD has to say is he didnt know or incite them to use illegal means. All I could see is finding a GD with an illegally shot animal.[IE with a .22 ,or slugs or the like] on the premisis...

If we reduce the main reason for all this, the money factor,it doesnt become profitable anymore by doing this the easy route of selling to a middleman who can cover his tracks pretty well.Leaving people having to sell on the open market themselves,proably locally they will find it difficult and not very profitable in the long term,thus the quick buck factor is gone.As we dont like investing in our busisness schemes here in Ireland,the cowboys give up and move onto pastures new.

Remember the private bin collections years ago??Lads faffing around in Hiace pickups doing rubbish collections on estates for 20 quid a month,per house and flinging it out somwhere in a bog ?
When the liscensing came in and a few prosecutions later of cowboy operatives,the genuine small private binmen paid their liscenses and are making a average to good living out of it,dumping wast in council landfills or wherever.

BUT the big factor is it needs to be regulated in either cases.Now,who gets or does that job?IMO it should be the dept of food/health saftey inspector that should have the powers of lightning inspections on anyone or place that has anything to do with food,be it a liscensed deer stalker,game dealer,or resturant,butcher,baker fishmonger or general supermarket they ,should be able to pull a badge and inspect the place in question and if below standard,shut the busisness down at once,until it has cleaned up its act within a time period.

Its what they do in the USA,food is too serious an issue to muck around with.This farcical situation of writing to the owner and giving them a time and date of when the inspection will be is ludicrious and only gives them time to clean up their mess,but allows them to sin again with impunity within the day.

garv123 · 23-01-2012 01:53PM

deerhunter1 wrote: »

Two lads caught allegedly lamping deer in Broadford Clare last week by Gardai, they said they were lamping foxes:D,one had a .270 the other a .308. Taken away in back of squad car. They were in an area I believe they had no permission and has a few red deer, with lamps (not the deer:rolleyes:), locals complaining over the lamping in the area, If true I hope they get done and licences revoked. They were caught around 7/730 in morning

Unless they were caught walking up the field dragging a deer they wont be done for feck all unfortunately. After the last thread about on land without permission im not even sure could they get done for trespassing.

Is there any proof at all?

deerhunter1 · 23-01-2012 02:02PM

garv123 wrote: »

Unless they were caught walking up the field dragging a deer they wont be done for feck all unfortunately. After the last thread about on land without permission im not even sure could they get done for trespassing.

Is there any proof at all?

Dont worry they will be done, cannot say much at moment

hunterpajero · 23-01-2012 05:03PM

garv123 wrote: »

Unless they were caught walking up the field dragging a deer they wont be done for feck all unfortunately. After the last thread about on land without permission im not even sure could they get done for trespassing.

Is there any proof at all?

i taught they had to be seen shooting the deer

ive never heard of anyone in ireland done for trespass yet

thelurcher · 23-01-2012 05:19PM

You're full of it BryanL

I stand by the idea of using the revenue to solve GD problem. The have no bother ringing me for every penny i make - tip - don't give them your mobile number :roll eyes:
They like nothing better than collecting the easy money - if the GD could only buy from a deer license holder then they'd have a ready made list of legitimate names to contact.

As for shoot more - I agree to a certain extent.
Still though think back 10 -15 years out east in your country - you wouldn't see anywhere near the numbers we had back then but the place still gets hammered every night. The whole city heads out there.

BryanL wrote: »

Nope, you'd have to shoot a lot more than that just to keep numbers the same.

Shooting a few deer every season isn't enough for most farmers.
You were seeing 20 deer in a single field but yet you only shot 6-7 deer in 3 years? That's not enough to keep that population even stable.

20 deer in a single field by a main road? what bigger invite could you give poachers?

You should have shot a lot more of those deer and you might have stopped poachers wiping them out.
Bryan

muff munch · 23-01-2012 07:04PM

BryanL wrote: »

Nope, you'd have to shoot a lot more than that just to keep numbers the same.

Shooting a few deer every season isn't enough for most farmers.
You were seeing 20 deer in a single field but yet you only shot 6-7 deer in 3 years? That's not enough to keep that population even stable.

20 deer in a single field by a main road? what bigger invite could you give poachers?

You should have shot a lot more of those deer and you might have stopped poachers wiping them out.
Bryan

my cousain was also doing a bit of hunting on the same land and he got a few out of it too so the farmer was happy enough.i only take them as i eat them.me and my brother go out together and half every deer we get so it would have been pointless in me shooting evrything i saw.i dont sell them my self.

BryanL · 23-01-2012 07:27PM

thelurcher wrote: »

You're full of it BryanL

Still though think back 10 -15 years out east in your country - you wouldn't see anywhere near the numbers we had back then but the place still gets hammered every night. The whole city heads out there.

And we know the loose lips that sent them out that way :eek:

kakashka · 23-01-2012 08:31PM

tomcat220t wrote: »

Want to be realistic about reducing poaching ........ put a stop to them selling their meat to game dealers !
Its the cash that drives the big time poachers.

Yes and i have made that point before BUT have realised that realistically with Dealers sons Lamping the chit out of locality,Dealers cutting a 1/2" out of pelvis so sex cant be distinguished,one of the biggest dealers in country has a cheque door+ cash door,same dealers that take all Coilte/NPWS Animals...realism???Deer are considered vermin by most landowners who dont care how they get rid of them because they cost them money!!!,sure if you have a lease from Coilte etc then you may have a chance if you approach with a good management plan(Coilte dont want numbers either but do make $$$$ from trophy tourists) but the majority of deer shot in the country are shot on private land
Nobody wants to hear it but things will never change until Deer are worth something to those who feed and support them!!wheather it happens now or when numbers are so low in certain areas(and not necessarily from poachers) that those who want to continue stalking will have to fight for it and those with stalking will look after it..i have deer,partly because they have been squeez from adjoining property but mostly because i have not shot the chit out of them for some time now(and for those who think you should only shoot a couple and nobody should sell,i can take 50 a season with NO pressure on numbers,would you rather i dug a hole and burried them!!)..as for poaching for money- i know several serious poachers,1 is at it for as long as i am shooting and i doubt Rangers even know his name,never been in court and never draws attention,the rest,in/out of court regularly and seem mostly to do it for bravado and bragging in hometown/ local pubs!!! personally to date i've had more trouble with so called pro hunters who have no problem pointing guns into neighbouring land if they see a trophy..(give me a poacher any day over one of these hypocrites,least i know what to expect)

Edit...G Dealer regulation's exist and we dont need more of this crap,..those who are supposed to regulate and enforce just dont bother

kakashka · 23-01-2012 08:35PM

deerhunter1 wrote: »

Dont worry they will be done, cannot say much at moment

And i'll bet the NARGC solicitor defends them!!!:rolleyes:
If it ever gets to court that is:rolleyes:

kevinm177 · 23-01-2012 08:36PM

i decided to read the whole lot of this thread to see what everyones opinion is on the topic and i have a few questions...1. Can everyone honestly say they have never taken a deer they shouldnt have?
2. If you were trying to survive on less than 200 euros a week would you pass up a chance to make some quick cash?
3. Do ye realise that it is a problem that will never be solved ....

kakashka · 23-01-2012 08:43PM

kevinm177 wrote: »

i decided to read the whole lot of this thread to see what everyones opinion is on the topic and i have a few questions...1. Can everyone honestly say they have never taken a deer they shouldnt have?
2. If you were trying to survive on less than 200 euros a week would you pass up a chance to make some quick cash?
3. Do ye realise that it is a problem that will never be solved ....

Thats realism and truth...

Hunter21 · 24-01-2012 01:29AM

As for farmers wanting all deer gone and have no issue with poachers doing it for them, what's load of bull!!i know loads of farmers and not one would warm to the idea of an annonymous malitia shooting on there lands by night. Far too dangerous.

kevinm177 wrote: »

i decided to read the whole lot of this thread to see what everyones opinion is on the topic and i have a few questions...1. Can everyone honestly say they have never taken a deer they shouldnt have?
2. If you were trying to survive on less than 200 euros a week would you pass up a chance to make some quick cash?
3. Do ye realise that it is a problem that will never be solved ....

Nothing is impossible, it can be solved if resources allowed.

I know plenty of people that survive on 200 a week, making quick cash shooting deer won't solve much! Take out expenses- rifle, scope, bullets, fuel and you'd want to shoot alot of deer to make a living.
Sooner or later that person will get caught doing illegal activities if they went down that road.

@ kashaka that poacher may think no one knows his an active poacher but beware the Gardai and Npws know alot more then people think. Time people stopped thinking their invincible!

Grizzly 45 · 24-01-2012 03:11AM

Well he isnt that good if Kash knows about him already..If one person knows you can be sure a dozen know about him !!!
Thats why I wont call theses clowns muppets and numpties poachers.Because they are so blatantly obvious and know they can get away with it,or so stupid to think that they can continue to literally hunt out areas of game and that it will magically replenish itself next year.
If a genuine and professional,[in the sense of taking pride in their title of poacher's] team hit your area,you would not know it as they wouldnt be back again for the season.or that somone had been there.

Also they wouldnt be lighting up the countryside like the Blitz on London with search lights for a start....In this day of cheap NV!!:rolleyes:

kevinm177 · 24-01-2012 10:11AM

Hunter21 wrote: »

As for farmers wanting all deer gone and have no issue with poachers doing it for them, what's load of bull!!i know loads of farmers and not one would warm to the idea of an annonymous malitia shooting on there lands by night. Far too dangerous.

Nothing is impossible, it can be solved if resources allowed.

I know plenty of people that survive on 200 a week, making quick cash shooting deer won't solve much! Take out expenses- rifle, scope, bullets, fuel and you'd want to shoot alot of deer to make a living.
Sooner or later that person will get caught doing illegal activities if they went down that road.

@ kashaka that poacher may think no one knows his an active poacher but beware the Gardai and Npws know alot more then people think. Time people stopped thinking their invincible!

yes hunter it will be solved, your absolutely right.
Along with the drug problem in our country and the gang problem in our cities.
Or how about the drink driving problem we have on our country roads or underage driking in our pubs.............
Persistant offenders dont care about authority or consequences, all they see is a chance for a quick buck or a quick fix,( they get a buzz off what they do) and when they get caught someone else fills their place.
And there are alot of people making alot of money lamping deer, believe me!!!

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LAMPING DEER

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