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Destruction of heritage

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  • 18-01-2012 5:27pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,977 ✭✭✭✭


    I don't believe for a minute that this guy didn't realise the significance of what was on his land.

    Are there any other notable cases of this kind of carry-on across the country?


    http://www.kerryman.ie/news/farmer-avoids-jail-for-damage-to-ringfort-2992062.html
    Farmer avoids jail for damage to ringfort


    By SIMON BROUDER

    Wednesday January 18 2012

    A MAN who demolished an ancient ring fort has been told he will not be jailed for the offence but faces a substantial fine.
    John O'mahony with an address at Clashmealcon, Causeway appeared at Tralee Circuit Criminal Court on Monday to be sentenced for carrying out unauthorised work near a monument on his family's farmland in Causeway in 2008.
    At a previous hearing Judge Carroll Moran heard that the family of Mr O'mahony, a 64year-old farmer, owned lands which contained a ring fort and a series of underground tunnels, or souterrains, which dated back to between 500 and 100AD.
    The ring fort and souterrain system were deemed to be national monuments of historic importance and had been placed on a national register.
    While landowners are allowed carry out works on or near national monuments that are on the register they must contact the Department Environment and receive express written permission from the minister before they proceed.
    The trial heard that in February 2008, without seeking permission from the department, John O'mahony hired workers who demolished the majority of the ringfort and used the materials to fill in a nearby pond which Mr O'mahony believed posed a safety risk to children and livestock.
    In the course of the work, the majority of the fort was destroyed while two thirds of the souterrian was demolished.
    When the Department of the Environment learned of the demolition they contacted Gardaí in Listowel who launched an investigation.
    During the garda investigation, John O'mahony initially claimed he was unaware that the site had any great historical significance.
    However it emerged that Mr O'mahony had previously objected to a planning application seeking permission to construct four houses on the same site on the grounds that it contained a "historical ring fort".
    He subsequently admitted to ordering the demolition of the fort but said he didn't know he wasn't allowed touch the site without two months notice and permission from the minister.
    Defence Barrister John O'sullivan said that Mr O'mahony, who had pleaded guilty to the charge, regrets what happened and apologises to the court.
    The case is the first of its kind to be heard in ireland and the offence carries a potential sentence of five years in prison or a fine of up to €50,000.
    Judge Carroll Moran said that while a custodial sentence was not appropriate in this case he felt that there had to be a penalty for Mr O'mahony's actions, which he described as "unacceptable."
    Judge Moran said he would impose a fine, which would be a "reasonable" amount but would take regard of John O'mahony's financial situation.
    He adjourned the case until February 21 to allow Mr O'mahony time to provide the court with details of his financial situation.
    - SIMON BROUDER


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Well the destruction of one of the moments in Telltown (site of ancient Tailteann) in the mid-late 90's is an example. As far as I know they got a similiar slap on the wrist. I read some of the reports on the "rescue dig" that was carried out. I'll dig it out later.

    Unfortunately there has been a massive amount of destruction of such sites since the OS 6" map was done in the 1830's/40's.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    I am reminded with the threads title of an almost unknown act of destructing our built heritage. I have tried to get a newspaper report of it and struggled to do so. Maybe someone will have a better source but people can take this linked record of events for whatever value they want. It is as I remember when working in the area. I remember the demolition being carried out early on a saturday morning.
    ..... my anger has to be expressed at the act of vandalism carried out on the Protestant hall in October 1995. This was worthy of the Afghan Taleban. Naturally it occurred on a Saturday, the day when
    Ireland’s demolition industry did so much of its work. It is hard for me to write about it, as it summons up so many ghosts which I had hoped to exorcise. I had just moved back down to Cavan from
    Dublin, a place which was far from free of the stench of corruption. Yet back home in dear old Cavan I felt I had been kidnapped by country-and-Irish loving aliens and transported to another planet. The Protestant Hall was knocked on the whim of the County Council and its then chief executive, and no one was allowed to protest. Indeed anyone who even alluded to the fact that it had ever stood there ran the risk of being victimised and joining the long list of people whom the then County Manager didn’t like. As the man is now deceased I do not wish to say too much. He cannot defend himself from his grave. Let me say this much. I said what I felt needed saying when he was alive. The coven of his detractors has swelled amazingly since his untimely death. He wasn’t the only one responsible for what happened that October day. (Who’s he gettin’ at? They will ask.) http://ciaranparker.com/2006/11/30/cavans-champs-elysees/
    http://www.dia.ie/works/view/7359/building/CO.+CAVAN%2C+CAVAN%2C+PROTESTANT+HALL

    It was a beautiful old red brick dressed building.
    A new county library was built on the site. It is named after the now deceased county manager who was in the council when the demolition of the hall occured. grrrr...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    There have been similar accusations over Dun Laoghaire Harbour Company's demolition of the station building on the Carlisle pier.

    I'm less convinced about its historical significance than I am of a ringfort, but nonetheless it created quite a bit of outrage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    This thread has the potential to be huge but very depressing. Here are the first two that pop into my head.

    Drogheda Grammar School

    1104764_490705f3.jpg

    © Copyright Kieran Campbell and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence

    Kenure House near Rush, Co.Dublin THEN

    kenure-house.jpg

    and NOW

    6467D4E18F624791906E8162397F2292-0000346146-0002520917-00500L-F2ABFE7497E948489179AEC8610F8E22.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Sure destruction of most of Georgian Dublin in the 60s/70s.

    They missed a bit on Fitzwilliam Street.
    esb.jpg

    Some industrial heritage, Ballysadare Mill, Sligo

    853.jpg

    the-mill-2-584x368.jpg


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Trabolgan House, Co.Cork

    hodges_trabolgan.jpg

    Purchased by the Land Commission in the 1940s. The house was demolished in 1982 and the demesne is now an activity holiday centre, see http://www.trabolgan.com

    More about the history of Trabolgan and its interesting 'Royal' connections here:
    http://gatecottages.wordpress.com/2011/05/25/trabolgan-country-estate/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    The Grand Daddy of them all and similar, but far more reprehensible, to the Kerry farmer's case is Wood Quay. Not only was a superb opportunity to develop a genuine Viking Centre lost but Sam Stephenson's abominations were inflicted on us too. :(

    24400_421029149815_702029815_5178132_4304999_n.jpg

    A protest scene in Dublin during the Wood Quay debacle.

    There was massive public opposition to the destruction at Wood Quay but the arrogance of Dublin City Council knew no bounds and this is the result.

    2196105_118c88a0.jpg
    © Copyright Eric Jones and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    The Grand Daddy of them all and similar, but far more reprehensible, to the Kerry farmer's case is Wood Quay. Not only was a superb opportunity to develop a genuine Viking Centre lost but Sam Stephenson's abominations were inflicted on us too. ...



    There was massive public opposition to the destruction at Wood Quay but the arrogance of Dublin City Council knew no bounds and this is the result.
    .

    Yes, and it still hurts!

    A quote from Dr Pat Wallace at a later conference. Is there some irony being employed there?
    For this conference The National Museum has gathered a range of informed speakers to reflect on Stephenson’s life and work and his impact on and contribution to Irish architecture and design. Dr Pat Wallace, Director of the National Museum commented “Although we had our differences particularly regarding the Civic Offices at Wood Quay, I always knew Sam Stephenson was an exciting innovator and a mould breaker”.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Coole House :mad:

    CooleHouse1941.jpg
    Coole estate was purchased in 1768 by Robert Gregory on his return to Ireland following service with the East India Company. It remained with the Gregory family until 1927 when it was sold to the state. Residing there at that time was Lady Augusta Gregory, already a legend in her lifetime as a dramatist, folklorist and co-founder of the Abbey Theatre with W.B. Yeats and Edward Martyn.

    Lady Gregory's love of Coole and its 'Seven Woods', immortalised by Yeats, is manifested in her writings and those of her literary guests.

    "These woods have been well loved, well tended by some who came before me, and my affection has been no less than theirs. The generations of trees have been my care, my comforters. Their companionship has often brought me peace."


    Lady Gregory, Coole, 1931
    She was one of the most important figures in the Irish Literary Revival of the early 20th century, not only because of her achievements as a playwright, but also because of the way she transformed Coole into a focal point for those who shaped that movement, making it a place they would return to time and time again to talk, to plan, to derive inspiration.

    But the woods and lakes at Coole were richer than Yeats divined. The 'Seven Woods', which so enchanted Lady Gregory and her guests, held whispers of a more ancient ancestry, of which the literary visitors were scarcely aware: remnants of the earlier natural forest cover, and the disappearing lake and river are part of the finest turlough complex not merely in Ireland but in all the world.

    Lady Gregory died on 22nd May 1932. In one sense, the magic of Coole has been in abeyance since the demolition of the house in 1941, a time when more immediate concerns occupied the minds of most people. Coole-Garyland is now a statutory Nature Reserve managed by the National Parks & Wildlife Service, whose aim is to preserve its rich natural and cultural heritage.

    More immediate concerns my arse. :mad:


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Ohhh Ohhh I've more:

    Trim Castle Hotel - sure why didn't they just attach it on to the side of the castle...
    http://www.trimcastlehotel.com/home.htm

    1.jpg

    trim-castle.jpg
    :mad::mad::mad:

    I once heard a colleague go off on one about the building of a helipad at Clonmacnoise (for the 1979 Papal visit?) but can't find any images...

    Anyone have any info on that?


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I'm on a roll here.

    My beloved South Mall in Cork -

    From a street of Georgian elegance -
    CCI_00208_full.jpg

    From Cork city Library - sadly they don't appear to give a date for this photograph but it is from the Lawrence Collection
    William Lawrence, after which the collection is named, was not himself a photographer, but an early entrepreneur. Realising the huge potential of the medium, he opened a photography studio in Sackville Street in Dublin in 1865. Over a number of years, he employed a team of photographers to capture the many and varied parts of Ireland, including Cork, depicted in these photographs. The full collection consists of 40,000 glass plates mainly from the period 1880-1914, but some plates go back to 1870. Robert French (1841–1917) was employed as his chief photographer in 1880. French took over 30,000 photographs of the “Lawrence Collection”
    http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/mapsimages/corkphotographs/lawrencecollection/


    to Soviet style monstrosity.

    2e5c93fc5fcb277c88837e18ff8cc045c6df1bd81d273b70d6f65080b0133b76.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    God this thread is depressing. I actually feel a knawing away at my insides reading these accounts of wanton destruction. The notion that we Irish love our heritage is BS- the reality is that we haven't gotten around to demolishing it yet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Cardinal Richelieu


    A slow destruction this one, Baldungan/Baldongan Castle in North Co Dublin.

    Late 1800s
    BalduncanCastChurchDub.jpg.jpg

    I understand the last of the castle disappeared in the 1960s do to this day even some of the locals still mistakenly call the remains of the church the castle.

    baldungan.2.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    Einhard wrote: »
    God this thread is depressing. I actually feel a knawing away at my insides reading these accounts of wanton destruction. The notion that we Irish love our heritage is BS- the reality is that we haven't gotten around to demolishing it yet.

    Maybe we should have a thread on preserved heritage. I think that would be a good idea and will do so shortly unless someone beats me to it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Cardinal Richelieu



    Kenure House near Rush, Co.Dublin THEN

    kenure-house.jpg

    and NOW

    6467D4E18F624791906E8162397F2292-0000346146-0002520917-00500L-F2ABFE7497E948489179AEC8610F8E22.jpg

    Kenure is in Rush not near it. The estate behind it is St Catherines, Rush.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Cardinal Richelieu


    Bannasidhe wrote: »

    I once heard a colleague go off on one about the building of a helipad at Clonmacnoise (for the 1979 Papal visit?) but can't find any images...

    Anyone have any info on that?

    Not very impressive looking today.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/sherwoodh/5019553526

    Aerial shot,, pad at the north of settlement between the river
    Clonmacnoise.jpg

    New York Times 1985
    The newest structure at Clonmacnoise is not yet 20 years old - a shelter built in 1969 for open-air masses. On Sept. 9, St. Kieran's feast day is celebrated with a service that attracts as many as 30,000 people. When Pope John Paul II visited Clonmacnoise in 1979, he spoke from the mass shelter. (He landed at the ruins by helicopter, and the pad constructed for the occasion remains. You would expect it to look flagrantly anachronistic, and yet there is something oddly congruous about the round concrete slab that is more than just the result of deliberate architectural harmonizing.


    Corkman.ie
    Donncha Ó Dulaing, who was then broadcasting his daily programme ‘Highways and Byways’ on RTE Radio One, had travelled to Rome the week prior to the visit and had broadcast two programmes from the Vatican.

    He then travelled back on the flight to Dublin, but his efforts to interview Pope John Paul II were almost thwarted by the papal bodyguard, Monsignor – later Archbishop – Paul Marcinkus.

    “Marcinkus was a giant of a man and one didn’t argue with him,” said Donncha as he recalled those hectic days.

    Of course Donncha went on to broadcast from the other locations which the Pope visited during his short stay in Ireland. One of these locations was the ancient monastic settlement of Clonmacnoise. This was publicised as a private visit by the Pontiff and the media were not present, except for the intrepid Donncha, who succeeded in getting a forty-minute exclusive radio broadcast.

    He drove across country from Drogheda via Dublin through the night, arriving at a damp and misty Clonmacnoise and the roads full of people walking with Papal flags and the tricolour.

    Donncha says he was reminded of the passage from William Bulfin’s Rambles in Erin which reads:

    “On all the roads between Banagher and Athlone there are troops of people facing westward, hundreds of people are tramping the roads in the dust; hundreds are footing it over the fields and the hills.”

    Then the helicopter hovering and descending out of the mist to the landing pad and the Pope set foot in the seat of the old Celtic religion and the seat of Rory O’Connor, the last High King of Ireland, who is buried there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Its not always bad news (not point of thread I realise!) here in Waterford two notable historic hospitals could easily have been flatted and cleared, - the Holy Ghost (now Manor Court) and the Infirmary fortunately both structures were kept intact and turned into apartments.
    One can easily imagine both being replaced by "soviet" blocks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    St. Peter's Church Aungier Street closed in 1950 and demolished in 1983.

    St-Peters-Dublin-1880.jpg

    According to wiki it was the largest Church of Ireland Parish church in Dublin at one time. The local parish of Robert Emmet's family (some argue he was interred there)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    I'm shocked.

    demolishing a ringfort wilfully should get a jail sentance.

    Lets hope the Fairys get him!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    corktina wrote: »
    I'm shocked.

    demolishing a ringfort wilfully should get a jail sentance.

    Lets hope the Fairys get him!
    Let's hope they do indeed.
    That is just about all that is protecting our early heritage.

    I spoke not too long ago, with a farmer who was utterly proud of himself for razing a passage tomb on his land.
    He told me this, to prove his disdain for the myths surrounding 'fairy forts'.
    He used the stone for building walls - his hobby.
    What he did with artefacts or bones or other archaeology, I do not know.
    I know of several other sites that have been ploughed into the ground by large scale landowners. They do this on a regular basis, to remove hedgerows and other obstacles to their lust for prairie style fields.

    Posted something similar to this over in the archaeology forum but the photos seem to have disappeared for some reason.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    slowburner wrote: »
    Let's hope they do indeed.
    That is just about all that is protecting our early heritage.

    I spoke not too long ago, with a farmer who was utterly proud of himself for razing a passage tomb on his land.
    He told me this, to prove his disdain for the myths surrounding 'fairy forts'.
    He used the stone for building walls - his hobby.
    What he did with artefacts or bones or other archaeology, I do not know.
    I know of several other sites that have been ploughed into the ground by large scale landowners. They do this on a regular basis, to remove hedgerows and other obstacles to their lust for prairie style fields.

    Posted something similar to this over in the archaeology forum but the photos seem to have disappeared for some reason.

    Did you report him to the Gardaí? It's one thing having disdain for "fairy forts" it's another destroying historical sites that might be of archaelogical significance.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Sometimes it is not that simple, sadly.
    He is a neighbour and out here in the boonies you can't go cheesing off your neighbours - let alone requesting their prosecution.
    The other thing is that he levelled it before it had been listed in the Sites and Monuments Record, so proving its prior existence would be well nigh impossible.
    I did inform an archaeologist at the DAHG with responsibility for the area - the reply was that it has happened to tens of thousands of sites.
    I suspect he is right.
    We have undoubtedly lost thousands of early sites - the remarkable thing is how many have survived.
    Maybe we can thank the Romans for that.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    slowburner wrote: »
    Sometimes it is not that simple, sadly.
    He is a neighbour and out here in the boonies you can't go cheesing off your neighbours - let alone requesting their prosecution.
    The other thing is that he levelled it before it had been listed in the Sites and Monuments Record, so proving its prior existence would be well nigh impossible.
    I did inform an archaeologist at the DAHG with responsibility for the area - the reply was that it has happened to tens of thousands of sites.
    I suspect he is right.
    We have undoubtedly lost thousands of early sites - the remarkable thing is how many have survived.
    Maybe we can thank the Romans for that.

    The Romans? :confused:


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Well, the Romans didn't build all that many forts, roads, spas, boundary walls in Ireland, did they?
    If they had, we would have lost more of our early heritage.
    Imagine how they would have used up all those ready sorted piles of stones as substrates for their lovely straight roads.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    slowburner wrote: »
    Well, the Romans didn't build all that many forts, roads, spas, boundary walls in Ireland, did they?
    If they had, we would have lost more of our early heritage.
    Imagine how they would have used up all those ready sorted piles of stones as substrates for their lovely straight roads.

    Ah. Getcha now ;).


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    I'm a little OCD about the Romans ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Cedrus


    Bannasidhe wrote: »

    My beloved South Mall in Cork -

    From a street of Georgian elegance -

    to Soviet style monstrosity.

    In fairness these pictures aren't comparing like with like, they are opposite sides of the street, and vile and all as Gardner (formerly Sutton) House is, it replaced Suttons coal warehouse which was no beauty and fairly filthy too I'd imagine.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Cedrus wrote: »
    In fairness these pictures aren't comparing like with like, they are opposite sides of the street, and vile and all as Gardner (formerly Sutton) House is, it replaced Suttons coal warehouse which was no beauty and fairly filthy too I'd imagine.

    True - I couldn't find any photo of the south side of the Mall - but I bet that when the turn of the century photo was taken there wasn't a Soviet block there. ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,429 ✭✭✭Cedrus


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    True - I couldn't find any photo of the south side of the Mall - but I bet that when the turn of the century photo was taken there wasn't a Soviet block there. ;)

    No, those two utilitarian office blocks were lashed up in the 60s before that there were utilitarian victorian warehouses built in the 1800s.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Cedrus wrote: »
    No, those two utilitarian office blocks were lashed up in the 60s before that there were utilitarian victorian warehouses built in the 1800s.

    Any photos? I went to school on the Mall so I have a particular fondness for it.


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