Is emigrating to Europe that big of a deal?

The J Stands for Jay · 16-01-2012 11:09AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

You're not comparing like with like.
Is moving from Los Angeles to San Francisco a big deal? It's near the same distance as Dublin to London.
You don't have to change bank a/c's, currency, phone number, car registration, internet/tv providers etc.
You have the same government, tv shows, food, shops etc.
Moving from Dublin to London you have to change everything and don't have the same culture.

Galway to London is about 400 miles.

Cleveland to New York City is about 400 miles.

If you move from Cleveland to NYC here are the changes you will need to make:

If you had a local bank account (through a credit union, for example), you will need to switch. Your telephone area code will change, meaning you will probably switch mobile numbers (and carriers, since coverage varies significantly). You will have to re-register your car and get a new drivers license. You will switch health insurance providers. Local government services and local taxes will be completely different. Levels of diversity, local expenses, the real estate market, public transport systems, and the cost of living will be totally different. The education system will change, and not everything may be transferrable. If you are a licensed professional, you will need to get a new license, and may need to re-take professional exams. Local cultures and accents are totally different - there is no comparison there.

If you move from Galway to London here are the changes you will need to make:

If you had a local bank account (through a credit union, for example), you will need to switch. Your telephone country code will change, meaning you will switch mobile numbers. You will have to re-register your car and possibly pay import taxes. You will switch health insurance providers. Local government services and local taxes will be completely different. Levels of diversity, local expenses, the real estate market, public transport systems, and the cost of living will be totally different. The education system will change, and not everything may be transferrable. You will need to get a new social security number.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 11:23AM

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

What is the issue here Rosie? You think emigrating isn't a big deal? It isn't for you, but for some people it would be very hard leaving their family, friends, and familiar surroundings. That's pretty much all there is to it! Case closed!
I live in London now but don't feel like I'm abroad at all, just feels like a big Dublin with more black people.

I guess from the perspective of having grown up and moved around in such a big country, moving 'internationally' for work when you don't have visa or language issues doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Pretty much everyone I know from home has left family, friends and familiar surroundings for school and/or work, and been further away from home than people who live in Ireland who emigrate to other parts of the EU. Although there is not the psychological adjustment of being a 'foreigner', missing your friends and family is no less real, and getting home to them if you move outside of your home region (especially from the East to the West Coast, or vice-versa) is far more difficult logistically than getting from, say, Spain to Ireland (much less from the UK to Ireland). That's the issue, I guess.

BraziliaNZ · 16-01-2012 11:30AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

I guess from the perspective of having grown up and moved around in such a big country, moving 'internationally' for work when you don't have visa or language issues doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Pretty much everyone I know from home has left family, friends and familiar surroundings for school and/or work, and been further away from home than people who live in Ireland who emigrate to other parts of the EU. Although there is not the psychological adjustment of being a 'foreigner', missing your friends and family is no less real, and getting home to them if you move outside of your home region (especially from the East to the West Coast, or vice-versa) is far more difficult logistically than getting from, say, Spain to Ireland (much less from the UK to Ireland). That's the issue, I guess.

Yeah but living in Detroit and moving to Seattle or something is not as big a deal as moving to Madrid from Ireland IMO. The cultural differences are huge between Ireland and Spain. The UK is pretty much the same as home for me but I know that living in Germany or France even is a lot different and you may feel more isolated in those places.

later12 · 16-01-2012 11:37AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

I guess from the perspective of having grown up and moved around in such a big country, moving 'internationally' for work when you don't have visa or language issues doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Pretty much everyone I know from home has left family, friends and familiar surroundings for school and/or work, and been further away from home than people who live in Ireland who emigrate to other parts of the EU. Although there is not the psychological adjustment of being a 'foreigner', missing your friends and family is no less real, and getting home to them if you move outside of your home region (especially from the East to the West Coast, or vice-versa) is far more difficult logistically than getting from, say, Spain to Ireland (much less from the UK to Ireland). That's the issue, I guess.

Sorry, what do you want here, a medal?

I didn't realize we were supposed to be comparing Irish emigrants to US interstate migrants in the misery-meter. On the one hand you opened this thread basically saying 'what's the big deal about emigrating to Europe', on the other hand you now explicitly refer to the personal ramifications that migration can have on individuals and their families in the above post.

Sorry but this is a predominantly Irish message board; don't be too alarmed if lots of us are talking about those effects of emigration in that context, or if it features heavily in the Irish media.

What a ridiculous bloody thread. I'm out.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 11:53AM

later10 wrote: »

Sorry, what do you want here, a medal?

I didn't realize we were supposed to be comparing Irish emigrants to US interstate migrants in the misery-meter. On the one hand you opened this thread basically saying 'what's the big deal about emigrating to Europe', on the other hand you now explicitly refer to the personal ramifications that migration can have on individuals and their families in the above post.

Sorry but this is a predominantly Irish message board; don't be too alarmed if lots of us are talking about those effects of emigration in that context, or if it features heavily in the Irish media.

What a ridiculous bloody thread. I'm out.

Not asking for a medal, just drawing a comparison. People leave friends and family behind for all kinds of reasons, and I don't see that it's the end of the world given that so many people do it, and within Europe it is relatively cheap and easy to get home and/or stay in contact with people.

I also understand that it is an Irish message board, but when the Irish media makes a fuss about young people having to move "far away from their families" for work (i.e. 200-300 miles away in London), it seems a bit maudlin considering that young people that live in larger countries within Europe and North America make geographically similar or bigger moves pretty routinely - Andalucians in Barcelona or Sicilians in Milan come to mind. Melbourne is far. Manchester, not so much.

CaliforniaDream · 16-01-2012 12:08PM

later10 wrote: »

Sorry, what do you want here, a medal?

I didn't realize we were supposed to be comparing Irish emigrants to US interstate migrants in the misery-meter. On the one hand you opened this thread basically saying 'what's the big deal about emigrating to Europe', on the other hand you now explicitly refer to the personal ramifications that migration can have on individuals and their families in the above post.

Sorry but this is a predominantly Irish message board; don't be too alarmed if lots of us are talking about those effects of emigration in that context, or if it features heavily in the Irish media.

What a ridiculous bloody thread. I'm out.

My dad always said to me, 'never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference'. I understand exactly what that phrase means now.

It seems somewhere along the OP's many travels, they left their comprehension and logic behind.

BraziliaNZ · 16-01-2012 12:26PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Not asking for a medal, just drawing a comparison. People leave friends and family behind for all kinds of reasons, and I don't see that it's the end of the world given that so many people do it, and within Europe it is relatively cheap and easy to get home and/or stay in contact with people.

I also understand that it is an Irish message board, but when the Irish media makes a fuss about young people having to move "far away from their families" for work (i.e. 200-300 miles away in London), it seems a bit maudlin considering that young people that live in larger countries within Europe and North America make geographically similar or bigger moves pretty routinely - Andalucians in Barcelona or Sicilians in Milan come to mind. Melbourne is far. Manchester, not so much.

They are moving to different countries. Can't you see the difference? The media talk about young people moving to the UK because it's a shame they can't get work in their own county, i.e. the state has failed them. Who goes on about it being a big deal to move to the UK?

Arpa · 16-01-2012 12:48PM

Think we're being a bit harsh on the op here. I think she was just trying to point out the distance issue in moving within Europe compared to moving within U.S. Granted the physical distances may not be all that different OP but the comparisons drawn stop there.

Take this for example

New York to Florida - 1,853 km

Dublin to Krakow - 1,821 km

A difference of 31km, but jesus what a cultural, economic, linguistic, social divide!

If you feel that moving within the United States is more of a difficult cultural adjustment, then you really have to get out more. Language, cuisine, customs, to name but a few, remain pretty much standard across the United States.

Europe in contrast...well if I went to Krakow right now, I'd be hard pushed to find a packet of Tayto, some Buckfast wine and a garlic & cheese chips to share with some wagon on the walk home.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 01:44PM

Arpa wrote: »

Think we're being a bit harsh on the op here. I think she was just trying to point out the distance issue in moving within Europe compared to moving within U.S. Granted the physical distances may not be all that different OP but the comparisons drawn stop there.

Take this for example

New York to Florida - 1,853 km

Dublin to Krakow - 1,821 km

A difference of 31km, but jesus what a cultural, economic, linguistic, social divide!

If you feel that moving within the United States is more of a difficult cultural adjustment, then you really have to get out more. Language, cuisine, customs, to name but a few, remain pretty much standard across the United States.

Europe in contrast...well if I went to Krakow right now, I'd be hard pushed to find a packet of Tayto, some Buckfast wine and a garlic & cheese chips to share with some wagon on the walk home.

Well, yeah, but I also suppose it depends on what direction that distance goes!

For example, Boston to Dublin is about 3,000 miles. That's a pretty long haul. But both cities are similar in size, are cloudy, and are very bar-oriented. And there are obvious historical and cultural links.

Now if you go just half of that distance in the opposite direction, you will be in Louisville, Kentucky or Nashville, Tennessee - both of which are still in the U.S. but GOOD LORD are they different , not only in climate, but politically and culturally. There would be no clam chowder, or professional baseball. Bourbon would supplant beer (unless you were in a - shudder - dry county). Jesus would be everywhere.

In all seriousness, I guess I have been overstating my case, more to make an argument. But there does seem to be this collective - and understandable - hangover in Ireland from the bad old days of the 'American Wakes' that is shaping the public response to today's out-migration. And although it may be upsetting for parents to see their kids boarding a plane to London (or Madrid or wherever), I don't really think you can compare past waves of outmigration in the same way: despite the fact that cultural barriers (of which I have noted many on boards!) still exist, the world today is a much 'smaller' place, than it was, even in the 1980s, and Europe in particular has 'shrunk' at the same time that it has expanded significantly.

MadsL · 17-01-2012 01:58AM

Arpa wrote: »

Language, cuisine, customs, to name but a few, remain pretty much standard across the United States.

Nonsense, you clearly haven't travelled in the US much. You get a very different meal if you ask for Chilli in Texas than you do if you ask for Chile in New Mexico. There are massive cultural differences between say the Northeast and the Southwest.

Europe in contrast...well if I went to Krakow right now, I'd be hard pushed to find a packet of Tayto, some Buckfast wine and a garlic & cheese chips to share with some wagon on the walk home.

Excuse me but what absolute bollix. Have you been to Krakow? Krakow is full of expats, and you just need to stumble in the nearest Irish bar to get most of what you are craving...including the wagon.

Killer Wench · 17-01-2012 02:17AM

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Yeah but living in Detroit and moving to Seattle or something is not as big a deal as moving to Madrid from Ireland IMO. The cultural differences are huge between Ireland and Spain. The UK is pretty much the same as home for me but I know that living in Germany or France even is a lot different and you may feel more isolated in those places.

There are also huge cultural differences between Detroit and Seattle. I don't think saying that one moves internationally automatically means that it is more traumatic than moving within one's home nation. If I am honest about, I found just as much difficulty moving from a mid-western state to a west coast state as I did moving from Seattle to Dublin.

I had to go register myself at the Gardai but I also had to go down to the WA DMV and get my tags registered. I didn't have to switch currency but going into a bank and having the teller look at my account information wasn't doable because I had opened my account in Illinois and I was now under the jurisdiction of a new state; and this was even within the same bank - BoA.

I actually went to TCD for grad school because it was cheaper for me to study in Ireland than it was to pay out of state tuition in WA.

somefeen · 17-01-2012 02:51AM

Moving to the UK can be a huge deal, London not so much since it has good transport links.
But if you end up on the Shetlands or some other remote part of scotland getting home is going to be hard.
Plus even though some Irish institutions are modeled after Brittish ones.
You need a new bank account, renewing your Irish passport becomes a pain in the ass. re-register your car, get a new driving licence. Adjust to brand name changes and dealing with a new currency day to day, took me weeks to figure out the coins. The culture change is huge. We can already be familiar with it from TV etc but theres lots of stuff that we dont see on TV that is hard to understand. Their Government works different to ours. Anti terrorism posters where big culture shock to me seemed very strange.
Anti Sectarian laws in Scotland, I was nearly arrested for singing one of the banned songs and I didnt even see how it could be offensive to anyone at all.
If you have an Irish name like O' something you are instantly conspicious, not in a bad way but people know you are different.
Trying to talk to people from Edinburgh or Newcastle you wont understand them and they wont understand you. Might as well be different language.
Trying to understand the Royal family
Everything is in imperial.
Pants become trousers

Spread · 17-01-2012 03:12AM

At 18 I went to England, learned a trade and moved around the country. A long time after I spent about 15 years in France and Germany, returned to Ireland for 15 years and now am in the US. Then I and fellow emigrants took everything in our stride. Language was not a barrier ..... you learned as you went. Cultural differences can be understood by looking at the history of the country - so, just as they are different from you, you are different from them. But you assimilate and are accepted. Do in Rome etc.
Some of the earlier posters seem to be still attached (virtual asttachment

) to the umbilical cord.
For God's sake ....... wise up and grow up. Such a fcuking bunch of whingers.

Spread · 17-01-2012 03:21AM

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

My point is you don't have to re-register everything within the US so stop bringing it up!

You reregister your car (six months gratis on average), your driving licence you give in and they give you one from your new state and you register to vote in the new state.

HavingCrack · 18-01-2012 12:13AM

I think the main difference between Ireland and the US is that many Irish people have an expectation to get a job in their home county (not even in other counties in some cases) rather than migrate. In the US moving from Colorado to Chicago for work is considered relatively normal by comparison. (In New York I had flatmates from Minnesota and Louisiana for example).

Now considering Irish history it was only during the Celtic Tiger that employment was widespread, a deviation from the norm for all intents and purposes so the expectation of employment in your locality (even in sales assistant/bar man/labourer type roles etc.) is a relatively new phenomenon.

Now as regards to the actual OP, I think Irish people generally have a greater connection to their locality/friends etc. than Americans do generally. Hence when the average Irish person moves to London/Amsterdam/Munich they are usually more put out than the average American. Americans seem to expect migration for work whereas Irish people did not expect emigration in the same way.

I hope I made some sense there.

Is emigrating to Europe that big of a deal?

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