Is emigrating to Europe that big of a deal?

CaliforniaDream · 16-01-2012 07:58AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

I am referring to:

1. Moving within the EU to a place where you speak the language (or at least work in the language, although that would be harder)
2. Moving to the UK, which most Irish people do when they move outside of the country.

Well then you're pretty much only talking about Irish people moving to the UK.
And in that case you need to change your OP and thread title to reflect that.
Make up your mind.

And then let's only talk about moving from one state to a neighbouring state and we can see how much it varies.

later12 · 16-01-2012 08:11AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Tax and welfare arrangements vary significantly within the United States.

They can, but I'm not quite sure they vary as much as in Europe. In terms of tax payments for example, an American may be entitled to tax credits from moving from one state to another that would not be allowable within Europe - the IRS even deducts moving expenses from tax obligations, apparently. And that's only one of the issues I mentioned, in other ways, the US is far more homogenous than Europe.

do you really think there is that much of a difference between moving from Galway to London and moving from Cleveland to New York City?

But I specifically said that the cultural change is not the issue there. I don't know anyone who gets upset at the cultural differences between Ireland and the UK. What might annoy people is having to move out of economic necessity for the sort of everyday employment which, under a normal situation, one should expect to attain in Ireland.

If North Dakota coffee shop workers were having to move to Michigan to work in coffee shops, I'm pretty sure they'd be annoyed too.

Present Irish levels of unemployment are very unusual in the US. Any economic migration in the US is likely to be far more discretionary in nature.

Most of the rest of your post appears to be dealing with cultural differences between the UK and Ireland, which has nothing to do with what I'm arguing. I don't think there is any major cultural difference.

seanybiker · 16-01-2012 08:14AM

No its not a big deal. Well unless it's someone moving over here, then according to a lot of us Irish yer a fecker.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 08:15AM

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

Well then you're pretty much only talking about Irish people moving to the UK.
And in that case you need to change your OP and thread title to reflect that.
Make up your mind.

And then let's only talk about moving from one state to a neighbouring state and we can see how much it varies.

I made my points on language and moving clear in the OP - go back and read it again.

And it doesn't matter what neighboring states you move to within the U.S., you will still have different tax, welfare, health, education, auto registration, family law, and professional licensing regulations.

CaliforniaDream · 16-01-2012 08:38AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

So I've seen a lot of posts over the last few months on people having to emigrate from Ireland looking for work. While people are understandably frustrated with the situation on the island, is emigration to work within Europe really that huge of a deal? You don't need a visa, flights within Europe are very cheap, Skype keeps people in contact, and given that most Irish people working abroad are in the UK, the cultural differences aren't that's great in that you don't need to learn another language, most people have access to British television, many follow English football teams, etc.

For comparison's sake, a flight from Dublin to London is 288 miles, while a flight from Detroit to Los Angeles is 1,983 miles. The latter would be seen as logical next step - the Detroit economy stinks - while the former would be seen by many as a forced emigration. Now maybe it's because I'm American and I think we have historically been much more mobile than people in most other industrialized countries, but I don't think that we are entitled to a job where we grew up - the times change, and economies change. I've lived thousands of miles from home for work, and it's damn hard at first, but them's the breaks, I suppose.

While the past 'sure we can't all live on a small island' mentality of some Irish politicians is a disgrace, I don't think moving to other parts of Europe for work and better opportunities is that big of a deal, especially for young people who don't have families. Or do culture and nationality really matter that much?

southsiderosie wrote: »

I made my points on language and moving clear in the OP - go back and read it again.

And it doesn't matter what neighboring states you move to within the U.S., you will still have different tax, welfare, health, education, auto registration, family law, and professional licensing regulations.

No you didn't.
What point are you trying to make? Is it that emigrating to the UK is not a big deal? Or is it that moving within the US is a big deal?

Yes moving to a new state you'll have differences in some taxes, laws, auto etc.
But moving to the UK you'll have all this and more. The already stated currency change, government change, bank account change, healthcare system, education systems, auto licencing and registration, inability to vote in elections, becoming a 'foreigner'...

Again, what point are you trying to make? It seems you're getting responses you don't want so you keep changing it.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 08:45AM

later10 wrote: »

They can, but I'm not quite sure they vary as much as in Europe. In terms of tax payments for example, an American may be entitled to tax credits from moving from one state to another that would not be allowable within Europe - the IRS even deducts moving expenses from tax obligations, apparently. And that's only one of the issues I mentioned, in other ways, the US is far more homogenous than Europe.

I would agree that the US is far more culturally homogeneous than Europe, but there are major tax differences when moving between states. For example, Florida has no state or local income tax, whereas, if you live in Chicago, you pay city, county, and state taxes. All US citizens have to pay the IRS though, whether you live in the US or not.

later10 wrote: »

But I specifically said that the cultural change is not the issue there. I don't know anyone who gets upset at the cultural differences between Ireland and the UK. What might annoy people is having to move out of economic necessity for the sort of everyday employment which, under a normal situation, one should expect to attain in Ireland.

But what is a 'normal' situation? Given Ireland's economic history, the Celtic Tiger years were arguably a deviation from the norm.

In addition, London and New York are both large global cities which are huge employment magnets. People routinely commute to New York from surrounding states (and further), either on a daily basis, or for a weekday/weekend split. Ireland is plausibly within the catchment basin for the London mega-economy; it is not so strange then to plausibly expect to move there for work, especially in certain fields.

later10 wrote: »

If North Dakota coffee shop workers were having to move to Michigan to work in coffee shops, I'm pretty sure they'd be annoyed too.

Michigan auto workers have to move to Tennessee or Mississippi to work in auto plants. They may be annoyed, but that's what they have to do if they want to stay in that industry.

later10 wrote: »

Present Irish levels of unemployment are very unusual in the US. Any economic migration in the US is likely to be far more discretionary in nature.

True, but to be fair Ireland's unemployment levels are unusual for most OECD countries, barring some of the other PIGS.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 09:02AM

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

No you didn't.
What point are you trying to make? Is it that emigrating to the UK is not a big deal? Or is it that moving within the US is a big deal?

Um...

southsiderosie wrote: »

My point is, moving from Detroit to LA (or Boston to San Francisco, which is the move I am contemplating right now) creates far more distance than moving from Dublin to London, yet I think the latter would be seen as a bigger deal (by some anyway). But given geographic and cultural proximity, plus modern communications technology, I don't really think it is.

southsiderosie wrote: »

I don't want to negate the experiences of those moving abroad for work, and I have done it myself. And maybe this is a function of having grown up in a very large country, but unless you are switching continents or have to deal with immigration, I don't see how the loneliness and shock of moving 'abroad' within Europe are that much different than that of moving with a very large country - or moving from a very remote rural area to a large urban area - especially if you speak the language. What is so magical about crossing an international border within Europe, especially given modern technology...and especially if you are moving to another Anglophone country?

...yeah.

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

Yes moving to a new state you'll have differences in some taxes, laws, auto etc.
But moving to the UK you'll have all this and more.

Really?

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

The already stated currency change,

Fair enough.

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

government change,

Yes, but given that Ireland's political system is modelled after Britain's, the political institutions are not actually that different. And yes some of the laws are, but these vary by U.S. state as well. For example, abortion, gambling, age of consent, criminal and civil law, even speed limits on highways vary by state.

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

bank account change,

Unless you are with a Big Three (Bank of America, Chase, Citibank), this will change.

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

healthcare system,

Varies by state and employer. The US does not have a national system for people under the age of 65.

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

education systems,

Varies by both state and local level. Schools in the US are under local jurisdiction.

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

auto licencing and registration,

Yes, you do this when you move in-between states.

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

inability to vote in elections,

Irish citizens can vote in both local and Parliamentary elections in the UK.

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

becoming a 'foreigner'...

And what exactly does this mean in the current Irish-UK context? Because that and the currency change seem to be the only significant differences, and given how pervasive the BBC, trashy reality shows, and Premiership football are in Ireland, British popular culture is not particularly foreign to the vast majority of the Irish population.

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

Again, what point are you trying to make? It seems you're getting responses you don't want so you keep changing it.

You seem to be ignoring my previous points about what moving between US states actually entails.

later12 · 16-01-2012 09:03AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

But what is a 'normal' situation? Given Ireland's economic history, the Celtic Tiger years were arguably a deviation from the norm.

Of course they were a deviation, there's no arguably about it.

But I'm talking about the reasonable expectation enjoyed by young people who lived through that 'deviation' that unskilled workers or workers with very broad employment backgrounds or aspirations ought to be able to find employment in reasonable proximity to their homes, social circle, and community.

Your use of the UK as an example (while using Europe in the thread title) is a silly strawman argument. Nobody seriously thinks moving to the UK is a big move in cultural terms, but it can be a far more significant commute to be forced to undertake when one's employment aspirations are modest (brickies, plumbers, shop assistants, office admin, etc.).

I didn't mind moving to the UK because I always knew I needed to work or study here for my specific interests. But between tubes, flights and trains, it takes a significant amount of time to get home just for a weekend. That's something I would have been very pissed about if I had come here to work in a newsagent's.

In addition, London and New York are both large global cities which are huge employment magnets. People routinely commute to New York from surrounding states (and further), either on a daily basis, or for a weekday/weekend split. Ireland is plausibly within the catchment basin for the London mega-economy; it is not so strange then to plausibly expect to move there for work, especially in certain fields.

Again, this only pertains to very specific job opportunities, for example in finance or law. People with very specific aspirations - like the Michigan auto workers you mention - should indeed expect to have to move in order to satisfy their goals. But Michigan coffee shop workers should not. Most Irish emigrants are not moving with such specific demands,their demands are quite basic. That's a large part of the 'issue'.

Ellis Dee · 16-01-2012 09:34AM

Emigrating to Europe?

Ireland is in Europe, always has been. I suppose the OP means "emigrating to Continental Europe". That is something I'd recommend, for a while at least. Learn a somewhat different way of life, perhaps a new language. Travel, they say, broadens the mind ---:rolleyes::rolleyes:

CaliforniaDream · 16-01-2012 09:37AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Um...
...yeah.
Really?
Fair enough.
Yes, but given that Ireland's political system is modelled after Britain's, the political institutions are not actually that different. And yes some of the laws are, but these vary by U.S. state as well. For example, abortion, gambling, age of consent, criminal and civil law, even speed limits on highways vary by state.
Unless you are with a Big Three (Bank of America, Chase, Citibank), this will change.
Varies by state and employer. The US does not have a national system for people under the age of 65.
Varies by both state and local level. Schools in the US are under local jurisdiction.
Yes, you do this when you move in-between states.
Irish citizens can vote in both local and Parliamentary elections in the UK.
And what exactly does this mean in the current Irish-UK context? Because that and the currency change seem to be the only significant differences, and given how pervasive the BBC, trashy reality shows, and Premiership football are in Ireland, British popular culture is not particularly foreign to the vast majority of the Irish population.

You seem to be ignoring my previous points about what moving between US states actually entails.

later10 wrote: »

Your use of the UK as an example (while using Europe in the thread title) is a silly strawman argument. Nobody seriously thinks moving to the UK is a big move in cultural terms, but it can be a far more significant commute to be forced to undertake when one's employment aspirations are modest (brickies, plumbers, shop assistants, office admin, etc.).

The bolded part above seems to keep passing over your head.
You may think you're clear but you're not.

I currently live in the states. I know what moving between states involves. It's not nearly as big a deal as you make it out to be. Yes there may be distance involved depending where you move to but you're still in the same country.

To answer what I think is your question:
No I don't think moving to the UK is a big deal.
Yes, I think it's a bigger deal than moving within the US.
Yes, I think moving within Europe is a much bigger deal than you realise.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 09:44AM

OK, let me put this bluntly.

If you speak the language, don't need to go through the rigmarole of getting a visa, and can be home in less than half a day, I don't really see what the big deal is having to move for work, even if this involves crossing an international border. This is especially true if you are young and don't have a family. Yes it sucks that you are not going to make it home for every birthday party. And it is nice to have family around, especially if you have small children. But at the end of the day, you can sit at home on your butt, or move on with life and make the best of it. Hard decisions are part of being a grown-up.

In Ireland's case, the obvious centers of gravity for employment are Dublin and London. Although one of these cities is technically foreign, and there is clearly a fraught political history there, legally - apart from the currency issue - there is about as much difference between working in Dublin and London as there is between working in Cleveland and New York - and the geographic distance is the same as well.

CaliforniaDream · 16-01-2012 09:50AM

As people have already said, no it's not a big deal.
But your OP clearly stated Europe and not London. There's a huge difference. What can't you grasp about this?
It's also not a big deal to move from state to state so I don't know why you keep trying to make it sound like it is, especially in comparison.
But at the end of it, it's more inconvenient to move from Ireland to the UK than it is to move from NY to Cleveland.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 09:51AM

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

The bolded part above seems to keep passing over your head.
You may think you're clear but you're not.

I currently live in the states. I know what moving between states involves. It's not nearly as big a deal as you make it out to be. Yes there may be distance involved depending where you move to but you're still in the same country.

To answer what I think is your question:
No I don't think moving to the UK is a big deal.
Yes, I think it's a bigger deal than moving within the US.
Yes, I think moving within Europe is a much bigger deal than you realise.

I have moved within Europe, and had to do so as a non-EU citizen, and other than having to deal with immigration issues (which were admittedly overwhelming), it wasn't significantly different than moving between large cities in different regions of the U.S. in terms of logistics (banking, health care, etc). I actually found moving between different regions in Spain to be more jarring than moving from Dublin to Belfast, and as I said, there was more culture shock for me moving from Boston to Miami than from Boston to Dublin. But different strokes for different folks I guess.

CaliforniaDream · 16-01-2012 09:53AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

it wasn't significantly different than moving between large cities in different regions of the U.S. in terms of logistics (banking, health care, etc). .

Oh dear God.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 09:54AM

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

As people have already said, no it's not a big deal.
But your OP clearly stated Europe and not London. There's a huge difference. What can't you grasp about this?

If you speak Spanish - and I was clear about language in my OP - why is moving to Madrid a huge deal? You don't need a visa, and you can go home regularly. Yes it is culturally different, but the days of the American Wake are over.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 09:56AM

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

Oh dear God.

How ****ign hard is it? A big city is a big city. You re-register everything, figure out where to buy your coffee and how to take the Metro, and move on with your life.

later12 · 16-01-2012 09:58AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

In Ireland's case, the obvious centers of gravity for employment are Dublin and London.

Yes, for some specific employment. Absolutely not for everything across the board.

Furthermore, I'm not sure why you keep reverting back to the UK issue. Why didn't you just reference moving to the UK in the thread title if that's all you're going to revert to when someone points out genuine difficulties in living and migrating to mainland Europe.

CaliforniaDream · 16-01-2012 09:58AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

If you speak Spanish - and I was clear about language in my OP - why is moving to Madrid a huge deal? You don't need a visa, and you can go home regularly. Yes it is culturally different, but the days of the American Wake are over.

Your thread title is 'Is emigrating to Europe that big of a deal?'.
Not 'Is emigrating to a certain country in Europe where you speak the same language a big deal?'

The US has one main language.
Europe has many. So speaking one language narrows your options of places to move to within Europe as I have already addressed in a post. And not every European country is within the EU so you may need visas.
And getting home to Ireland from other countries requires you to rely on other timetables such as planes and ferries.
In the US you can simply get in your car and drive.

CaliforniaDream · 16-01-2012 10:01AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

How ****ign hard is it? A big city is a big city. You re-register everything, figure out where to buy your coffee and how to take the Metro, and move on with your life.

My point is you don't have to re-register everything within the US so stop bringing it up!

pickarooney · 16-01-2012 10:04AM

I think the biggest single difference between moving between US states and moving between countries in the EU is that in the latter you become a foreigner, with all that that entails. It can't necessarily be encapsulated in broad arithmetical strokes.

oranje · 16-01-2012 10:04AM

I am Irish. I have live in Holland for eleven years. With spells in Ireland in between, I also lived in Germany for a year and and studied and worked in England for five years.

I think that the OP has a point about the fact that moving to the UK is not such a big deal in some respects. Many, if not most, Irish people are very oriented towards British culture (television, newspapers, magazines, soccer etc.). In some respects it is like Canada and the US. A success hungry artist or soccer player will gravitate towards the larger, more lucrative market.

As I come from the west of Ireland originally and grew up in two-channel-land I didn't have this affinity for British culture (e.g. I have never seen any Monty Python), if anything my part of the country was obsessed with America :-) I was also into Irish language activities, like debating, when I was younger and I went to Irish college in the summers. I was proud of those aspects of my culture.

What I found in the UK was that I was never treated as a foreigner though I regarded myself as one. It used to amuse English people that I would say that they should regard Irish people in the same way as French or Dutch people, nationals of other European countries. Their attitude was that Irish people were like the Scots or Welsh or even the Geordies, the same but different. My attitude was that I was perfectly happy to be friends with everybody but that I was not the same. I might speak English but that didn't mean that I couldn't speak Irish. I might know about soccer but I also knew about Gaelic Football.
For me the UK is a good place to live if you are not carrying a lot of historical and cultural baggage. I was, so it wasn't.

My experience in Germany was very positive. The people were friendly and really went out of their way to be patient as I learned the language. I particularly loved going to festivals where people would be singing schlager and beautiful girls would be wearing traditional costumes. It was nice because you would feel like you were experiencing something really authentic. I also loved the massive warehouse discos where you would have theme Depeche Mode or Goth theme nights. I met so many interesting and interested people in Germany. I loved the food too. I think that it is a great place to live but you do need to conform and learn the language.

Holland is much different. You can live here for years without learning a word of Dutch. I know many foreigners who have been here for up to ten years and cannot speak more than a few words. There are thousands of foreigners who use English as their lingua franca and Dutch people like nothing better than showing off how well they speak English

Basically you can arrange everything in life here through English.

At the same time there are many foreigners (and quite a few Irish people I have met) who do integrate. Dutch is a very easy language for English speakers so you can reach a good level within a year. If you speak Dutch you realize that there is a whole lot more going on around you and you can take part in everything the country has to offer. I don't thing that people here are particularly friendly though. You have to look after yourself in this country and develop a thick skin.

I have also spent a lot of time in Poland as my wife is Polish. I think that Poland is a great country for a person looking for adventure. The economy is growing nicely and culturally the Poles have a lot in common with Irish people. The language is difficult but you have the advantage there that relatively few people can speak English so you are basically forced into learning Polish. Poland is big enough to have its own culture with loads of indigenous television, musical artists, comedians etc. Although I live in Holland my wife speaks Polish to the kids and we have satellite tv so I am also a little bit Polish at this stage so maybe I am biased

All in all I think that there are major challenges living in any other country. The UK looks easy but it was bad for my mental health. Personally I think that NL is a relatively easy country to choose but many people find the lack of personal warmth a big issue. These days I find it difficult going back to my home town because all of a sudden I have people saluting me or wanting to make small talk.....

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 10:07AM

later10 wrote: »

Yes, for some specific employment. Absolutely not for everything across the board.

Furthermore, I'm not sure why you keep reverting back to the UK issue. Why didn't you just reference moving to the UK in the thread title if that's all you're going to revert to when someone points out genuine difficulties in living and migrating to mainland Europe.

Again, if you speak the language, don't need a visa, and you can be home in half a day, why is it such a big deal to move across an international border for work? That was my "bottom line" post from the last page.

later12 · 16-01-2012 10:20AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Again, if you speak the language, don't need a visa, and you can be home in half a day, why is it such a big deal to move across an international border for work? That was my "bottom line" post from the last page.

Because it shouldn't be necessary for such a wide range of workers. Some people simply like living in Ireland, they like their communities, they like their ties to their families, the landscape, sports clubs, community life,whatever. For those with reasonably modest employment expectations - office admin or sales assistants - they shouldn't have to give that up to start all over and compromise the life they have built and the friendships they have made.

It is irrational of you to pretend that US employees are forced to uproot in the same way and to the same degree. If I want to live in Bismarck North Dakota, and I'm quite happy to work in a cafe or at the local library or in a drugstore, then I can quite reasonably expect to remain living there and keep my personal situation. That's something that many Irish people - particularly those with modest expectations - find so frustratingly different. I don't see what your problem is in accepting that.

Yes, they are getting on with it, they're moving on with their lives and starting afresh, but there's nothing wrong with being a bit pissed about that necessity.

AeoNGriM · 16-01-2012 10:28AM

Johnny Foreigner wrote: »

Ireland is part of the EU.
You cannot emigrate from the EU to the EU.
I am London-Irish, and lived in the UK for 32 years.
I can tell you from personal experience, that their are huge cultural differences between even the UK and Ireland.
For example, The Roman Catholic Church still has huge influence in Ireland.
In the UK its more cosmopolitan and multicultural.
It took me 6 months to slow down from a London paced lifestyle to an Irish one.
And these are just the differences between the UK and Ireland. The differences between Ireland and other EU member states are massive, not just culturally, but socially and economically.
Yes, culture and nationality really do matter that much.

Binge drinking and alcohol related violence, rioting and racial tension = cosmpopolitan and multicultural now does it?

Have to disagree with you there. On paper, you're right, but the reality is totally different. The UK is a sh!thole just like here, it's just a slightly different kind of sh!thole.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 10:41AM

pickarooney wrote: »

I think the biggest single difference between moving between US states and moving between countries in the EU is that in the latter you become a foreigner, with all that that entails. It can't necessarily be encapsulated in broad arithmetical strokes.

True. But I guess to speak to Oranje's point about mental health, being a foreigner can seem more bearable than feeling like a stranger in your own country. And I do find that there is a kind of logic and openness to living in large, modern cities - regardless of the country - that is less jarring and alienating that scaling down to, say, American exurbia.

billybudd · 16-01-2012 10:52AM

I get what you’re saying, having lived in the states for a good while it was no big deal to see a family with the husband and wife in their 50's for instance up sticks and move to another corner of the country because of better job etc., I think Irish people are home birds in general we like a bit of travel and the craic that comes with it but we also love our home and we feel hard done by if we are forced to move by lack of jobs etc., moving to the UK is I don’t think a big deal but any place in Europe that we need to learn the native lingo is a no no, maybe it’s because different languages are not taken that seriously in schools here at a secondary level and its made out to be very difficult to learn and become fluent in these different languages, a good example is that most cannot even speak our own native language, so we give up before we begin, most people from different countries that I know had a very good grasp of English from secondary school and it only took the 6 -12 months of living here to become fluent in it so I think its fear from our early years that contribute to our unwillingness to move to a country in Europe that forces us to learn a new language, if it wasn’t for the language then there would be a hell of a lot less people moving to the US, Australia, Uk or Canada, I really admire people who take the less easy option and move to Barcelona, Madrid or Paris, Berlin etc. even if it means they clean offices for the first year or other menial jobs, its why I admire people from Poland, Romania, etc. that come here and learn our language in difficult circumstances, in closing I don’t think its mainland Europe that is the problem and I have nothing to back this up but I would say the reason why the majority of people choose Sydney Etc. over Madrid Etc. is purely the fear of learning a new language.
As for me I am off to a Spanish Island when I have enough money saved to do what I wanna do.

The J Stands for Jay · 16-01-2012 10:55AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Fair enough. But can't the same be said of someone moving from rural Donegal to Cork? Given the state of Irish transport, I'd reckon living in London and visiting family in Dublin is less complicated than living in Cork and visiting family in the wilds of Donegal!

I'm from Donegal, I've lived in New York and I've married a girl from Cork. The trip from New York to Donegal is a lot easier than from Cork (i could almost argue there's less of a language barrier...)

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 10:55AM

later10 wrote: »

Because it shouldn't be necessary for such a wide range of workers. Some people simply like living in Ireland, they like their communities, they like their ties to their families, the landscape, sports clubs, community life,whatever. For those with reasonably modest employment expectations - office admin or sales assistants - they shouldn't have to give that up to start all over and compromise the life they have built and the friendships they have made.

The irony here is that many, many sales assistants, cafe workers and the like in Ireland have done exactly that: they left their friends and families in Poland and Latvia to take those modest jobs - even though many of them are highly qualified in other fields.

BraziliaNZ · 16-01-2012 11:00AM

What is the issue here Rosie? You think emigrating isn't a big deal? It isn't for you, but for some people it would be very hard leaving their family, friends, and familiar surroundings. That's pretty much all there is to it! Case closed!
I live in London now but don't feel like I'm abroad at all, just feels like a big Dublin with more black people.

later12 · 16-01-2012 11:01AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

The irony here is that many, many sales assistants, cafe workers and the like in Ireland have done exactly that: they left their friends and families in Poland and Latvia to take those modest jobs - even though many of them are highly qualified in other fields.

I don't find that terribly ironic.

If these people had to emigrate and engage in this sort of unskilled work out of real economic necessity, and otherwise would rather have remained in their communities, then I think that's rather a shame.

Why do you consider this ironic?

Is emigrating to Europe that big of a deal?

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