Is emigrating to Europe that big of a deal?

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 03:58AM #1

So I've seen a lot of posts over the last few months on people having to emigrate from Ireland looking for work. While people are understandably frustrated with the situation on the island, is emigration to work within Europe really that huge of a deal? You don't need a visa, flights within Europe are very cheap, Skype keeps people in contact, and given that most Irish people working abroad are in the UK, the cultural differences aren't that's great in that you don't need to learn another language, most people have access to British television, many follow English football teams, etc.

For comparison's sake, a flight from Dublin to London is 288 miles, while a flight from Detroit to Los Angeles is 1,983 miles. The latter would be seen as logical next step - the Detroit economy stinks - while the former would be seen by many as a forced emigration. Now maybe it's because I'm American and I think we have historically been much more mobile than people in most other industrialized countries, but I don't think that we are entitled to a job where we grew up - the times change, and economies change. I've lived thousands of miles from home for work, and it's damn hard at first, but them's the breaks, I suppose.

While the past 'sure we can't all live on a small island' mentality of some Irish politicians is a disgrace, I don't think moving to other parts of Europe for work and better opportunities is that big of a deal, especially for young people who don't have families. Or do culture and nationality really matter that much?

MrStuffins · 16-01-2012 04:01AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

the cultural differences aren't that's great.

Lol!!

You have no idea what you're talking about. Have you ever been outside of the UK and Ireland? How are the cultural differences not great?

Have you ever had to go to another country and learb their language?

later12 · 16-01-2012 04:07AM

It can be a big deal for some people. In my own case, it doesn't bother me (or my family) that we're all split up, but I know some parents would be sad that their offspring are probably going to settle in foreign countries, marry there, and set down roots.

Ireland is still a heavily family-oriented society, we tend to value family connections. When a parent waves their child off at the airport for Boston or Brisbane, they're not just saying good bye for a year or so, they could be saying goodbye to the sort of relationship with their child they had anticipated and looked forward to (and vice versa).

By the way, are Americans particularly mobile? Is there significant emigration? I don't think so,and it certainly is the sort of emigration one sees in Ireland, which is of an economic necessity. Most Americans who leave the US for long term emigration are probably Mexican Americans returning 'home'. Most of the Americans i've ever met in Europe are here for a lifestyle that they can't get in the states, or only for a short period of time. And lets not dwell on the number of Americans with actual passports.

Johnny Foreigner · 16-01-2012 04:10AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

So I've seen a lot of posts over the last few months on people having to emigrate from Ireland looking for work. While people are understandably frustrated with the situation on the island, is emigration to work within Europe really that huge of a deal? You don't need a visa, flights within Europe are very cheap, Skype keeps people in contact, and given that most Irish people working abroad are in the UK, the cultural differences aren't that's great.

For comparison's sake, a flight from Dublin to London is 288 miles, while a flight from Detroit to Los Angeles is 1,983 miles. The latter would be seen as logical next step - the Detroit economy stinks - while the former would be seen by many as a forced emigration. Now maybe it's because I'm American and I think we have historically been much more mobile than people in most other industrialized countries, but I don't think that we are entitled to a job where we grew up - the times change, and economies change. I've lived thousands of miles from home for work, and it's damn hard at first, but them's the breaks, I suppose.

While the past 'sure we can't all live on a small island' mentality of some Irish politicians is a disgrace, I don't think moving to other parts of Europe for work and better opportunities is that big of a deal, especially for young people who don't have families. Or do culture and nationality really matter that much?

Ireland is part of the EU.
You cannot emigrate from the EU to the EU.
I am London-Irish, and lived in the UK for 32 years.
I can tell you from personal experience, that their are huge cultural differences between even the UK and Ireland.
For example, The Roman Catholic Church still has huge influence in Ireland.
In the UK its more cosmopolitan and multicultural.
It took me 6 months to slow down from a London paced lifestyle to an Irish one.
And these are just the differences between the UK and Ireland. The differences between Ireland and other EU member states are massive, not just culturally, but socially and economically.
Yes, culture and nationality really do matter that much.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 04:14AM

MrStuffins wrote: »

Lol!!

You have no idea what you're talking about. Have you ever been outside of the UK and Ireland? How are the cultural differences not great?

Have you ever had to go to another country and learb their language?

Yes. I was born in the U.S., and have lived and worked in several major cities there as well as Ireland and Spain (I learned Spanish while traveling in Central America). Hell, I experienced more culture shock moving from Boston to Miami than I did moving from Boston to Dublin!

My point is, moving from Detroit to LA (or Boston to San Francisco, which is the move I am contemplating right now) creates far more distance than moving from Dublin to London, yet I think the latter would be seen as a bigger deal (by some anyway). But given geographic and cultural proximity, plus modern communications technology, I don't really think it is.

Mr. Manager · 16-01-2012 04:17AM

It's not the distance that matters. It's the fact that someone has had to uproot their life and move away. Regardless of whether you go to America or the UK, you're not at home. You're not surrounded by friends, family and familiarity.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 04:18AM

later10 wrote: »

It can be a big deal for some people. In my own case, it doesn't bother me (or my family) that we're all split up, but I know some parents would be sad that their offspring are probably going to settle in foreign countries, marry there, and set down roots.

Ireland is still a heavily family-oriented society, we tend to value family connections. When a parent waves their child off at the airport for Boston or Brisbane, they're not just saying good bye for a year or so, they could be saying goodbye to the sort of relationship with their child they had anticipated and looked forward to (and vice versa).

Which is why I specifically said Europe - moving to the US or Australia is a big deal, given the geographic distance, immigration issues, etc.

later10 wrote: »

By the way, are Americans particularly mobile? Is there significant emigration? I don't think so,and it certainly is the sort of emigration one sees in Ireland, which is of an economic necessity. Most Americans who leave the US for long term emigration are probably Mexican Americans returning 'home'. Most of the Americans i've ever met in Europe are here for a lifestyle that they can't get in the states, or only for a short period of time. And lets not dwell on the number of Americans with actual passports.

I meant mobile in terms of moving away from hometowns for work. Most American college students at 4-year universities move away from home, and especially for people who grew up in rural areas, or in the middle of the country, it is relatively common to move to a coastal city (or to a regional capital like Chicago or Atlanta) for work. Distance-wise this is pretty comparable to moving within Europe, and there are some pretty significant regional cultural differences within the U.S. - again, Boston and Miami are two key examples (and to me, having grown up in the Midwest and spent most of my adult life on the East Coast, California feels like a different country altogether!).

MrStuffins · 16-01-2012 04:22AM

It's a big deal for some

Miniature American flags for others!

Onthe3rdDay · 16-01-2012 04:33AM

Johnny Foreigner wrote: »

I am London-Irish, and lived in the UK for 32 years.
I can tell you from personal experience, that their are huge cultural differences between even the UK and Ireland.
For example, The Roman Catholic Church still has huge influence in Ireland.
In the UK its more cosmopolitan and multicultural.
It took me 6 months to slow down from a London paced lifestyle to an Irish one.

You don't have to move to Ireland for differences. There are huge cultural differences inside the UK. London is very a very different experience compared to say Cornwall or the North of England. lets not even talk about the differences between Scotland and London.

kraggy · 16-01-2012 04:33AM

By moving from Dublin to London, you have to change currency, open up a new bank account, use different organisations to those one is used to in order to get things.

The health service is different over there. In Ireland you just show up at the GP usually unannoucned, in Britain you have to ring a central number to make an appointment. In Ireland you pay for it, in Britain you don't.

Lot of other examples.

Attitudes are different. While we may have similar interests vis a vis sport, the arts etc, they are different to us in many ways. Their attitudes and opinions and ways of doing things are sometimes the same, but often different.

MadsL · 16-01-2012 04:34AM

later10 wrote: »

By the way, are Americans particularly mobile? Is there significant emigration? I don't think so,and it certainly is the sort of emigration one sees in Ireland, which is of an economic necessity. Most Americans who leave the US for long term emigration are probably Mexican Americans returning 'home'. Most of the Americans i've ever met in Europe are here for a lifestyle that they can't get in the states, or only for a short period of time. And lets not dwell on the number of Americans with actual passports.

Overall, 43 million U.S. residents, or 16 percent of the population, moved to a new residence during the one-year period.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa060401a.htm

The percentage of Americans who say they moved from another state the previous year has risen every year this decade. At 2.2% in 2003, it reached 2.5% in 2005 and 2.7% in 2006, the first year that the Census Bureau's American Community Survey counted people in dormitories, prisons and other group settings.

The increase in movers from 2003 to 2006 amounts to an extra 1.5 million people moving to another state every year or a total of 8 million in 2006.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-11-29-Mobility_N.htm

policarp · 16-01-2012 04:35AM

I'm gettin a taxi home> . .

Seomra Mushie · 16-01-2012 04:42AM

OP, it's different for everyone.

I was unbelievably lonely when I emigrated to the UK and became very depressed. But that could have happened if I had moved to a part of Ireland where I knew no-one too I guess. It's hard to make friends once you leave college, I find.

But it would be way more of a culture shock to move to another part of Europe from Ireland then from one US state to another. It's not really about physical distance.

Seomra Mushie · 16-01-2012 04:46AM

kraggy wrote: »

In Ireland you just show up at the GP usually unannoucned, in Britain you have to ring a central number to make an appointment.

Both untrue. At my GP in Ireland, an appointment has to be made. At my UK GP, you rang the GP's office, not a central number.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 04:57AM

Cereal Rapist wrote: »

It's not the distance that matters. It's the fact that someone has had to uproot their life and move away. Regardless of whether you go to America or the UK, you're not at home. You're not surrounded by friends, family and familiarity.

Fair enough. But can't the same be said of someone moving from rural Donegal to Cork? Given the state of Irish transport, I'd reckon living in London and visiting family in Dublin is less complicated than living in Cork and visiting family in the wilds of Donegal!

I don't want to negate the experiences of those moving abroad for work, and I have done it myself. And maybe this is a function of having grown up in a very large country, but unless you are switching continents or have to deal with immigration, I don't see how the loneliness and shock of moving 'abroad' within Europe are that much different than that of moving with a very large country - or moving from a very remote rural area to a large urban area - especially if you speak the language. What is so magical about crossing an international border within Europe, especially given modern technology...and especially if you are moving to another Anglophone country?

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 05:05AM

kraggy wrote: »

By moving from Dublin to London, you have to change currency, open up a new bank account, use different organisations to those one is used to in order to get things.

The health service is different over there. In Ireland you just show up at the GP usually unannoucned, in Britain you have to ring a central number to make an appointment. In Ireland you pay for it, in Britain you don't.

Lot of other examples.

Attitudes are different. While we may have similar interests vis a vis sport, the arts etc, they are different to us in many ways. Their attitudes and opinions and ways of doing things are sometimes the same, but often different.

Other than currency, I have had to do similar when moving within the U.S. and Spain. And when I (admittedly temporarily) moved from Spain to the UK, I didn't even have to change my bank, since I had a Santander account. But in both Spain and the U.S., the educational system, health care, and a host of other government services are run locally, not nationally, so you have to switch over every time you move (and in the US, you generally switch your health insurance when you change jobs, as it is employer based).

In terms of sports, religion, casual social interaction, political institutions, climate, friendliness, crime, music, cuisine, and even language, Massachusetts and Louisiana are very, very different. Relocating from Maine to New Orleans seems like a much bigger shock than, say, Dublin to London - especially since Maine does not have a large ex-pat community in the Big Easy!

Seomra Mushie · 16-01-2012 05:12AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Fair enough. But can't the same be said of someone moving from rural Done And maybe this is a function of having grown up in a very large country, but unless you are switching continents or have to deal with immigration, I don't see how the loneliness and shock of moving 'abroad' within Europe are that much different than that of moving with a very large country - or moving from a very remote rural area to a large urban area - especially if you speak the language.

But, for Irish people, chances are we won't speak the language, seeing as we lag behind the rest of Europe in multilingualism. Cultural difference is more alienating and disorientating than physical distance, IMO, if the physical distance is within the one country.

I can see how Miami might be very different to other parts of the states though, due to a very large Spanish-speaking population.

kraggy · 16-01-2012 05:22AM

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

Both untrue. At my GP in Ireland, an appointment has to be made. At my UK GP, you rang the GP's office, not a central number.

Untrue for you perhaps.

But true for me. In Galway, I arrive with no appointment. When I lived in Bournemouth I had to ring the central number for the region. Same for a dentist.

Seomra Mushie · 16-01-2012 05:32AM

kraggy wrote: »

Untrue for you perhaps.

But true for me. In Galway, I arrive with no appointment. When I lived in Bournemouth I had to ring the central number for the region. Same for a dentist.

That's grand but the way you said it, was like what you do is commonplace in both countries, which it isn't necessarily.

im invisible · 16-01-2012 05:46AM

I'd agree with the OP that moving to the UK shouldnt be seen as a big deal, and i dont think it is, well for me anyway. But the rest of europe speak how many different languages? I dont think i could move to somewhere that english isnt the predominant language, Austrailia/ New Zealand/ Canada/ USA would be so much easier.

CaliforniaDream · 16-01-2012 05:49AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

In terms of sports, religion, casual social interaction, political institutions, climate, friendliness, crime, music, cuisine, and even language, Massachusetts and Louisiana are very, very different. Relocating from Maine to New Orleans seems like a much bigger shock than, say, Dublin to London - especially since Maine does not have a large ex-pat community in the Big Easy!

You're not comparing like with like.
Is moving from Los Angeles to San Francisco a big deal? It's near the same distance as Dublin to London.
You don't have to change bank a/c's, currency, phone number, car registration, internet/tv providers etc.
You have the same government, tv shows, food, shops etc.
Moving from Dublin to London you have to change everything and don't have the same culture.

There are 200+ languages in Europe. There's about 1/10th in North America. And about 80% of people in North America speak English as their 1st language.

So to answer your original question, yes it's a bigger deal to move within Europe than it is to move within the United States.
Not to mention the fact that you can't 'emigrate' within the United States but you can emigrate within Europe.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 06:23AM

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

You're not comparing like with like.
Is moving from Los Angeles to San Francisco a big deal? It's near the same distance as Dublin to London.
You don't have to change bank a/c's, currency, phone number, car registration, internet/tv providers etc.
You have the same government, tv shows, food, shops etc.
Moving from Dublin to London you have to change everything and don't have the same culture.

Galway to London is about 400 miles.

Cleveland to New York City is about 400 miles.

If you move from Cleveland to NYC here are the changes you will need to make:

If you had a local bank account (through a credit union, for example), you will need to switch. Your telephone area code will change, meaning you will probably switch mobile numbers (and carriers, since coverage varies significantly). You will have to re-register your car and get a new drivers license. You will switch health insurance providers. Local government services and local taxes will be completely different. Levels of diversity, local expenses, the real estate market, public transport systems, and the cost of living will be totally different. The education system will change, and not everything may be transferrable. If you are a licensed professional, you will need to get a new license, and may need to re-take professional exams. Local cultures and accents are totally different - there is no comparison there.

Given the availability of British TV channels in Ireland, I don't think that is a significant difference.

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

There are 200+ languages in Europe. There's about 1/10th in North America. And about 80% of people in North America speak English as their 1st language.

So to answer your original question, yes it's a bigger deal to move within Europe than it is to move within the United States.
Not to mention the fact that you can't 'emigrate' within the United States but you can emigrate within Europe.

But there are no visa or work restrictions. As a EU citizen, you are not 'emigrating' in the same legal sense as an American seeking work outside of national borders. The main differences are really language - hence my emphasis on Anglophone clusters - and local culture, which varies significantly within large countries (and even small ones like Belgium).

In particular, other than the currency shift, it is still not clear to me that there are any major differences between emigrating from Ireland to the UK for work and moving within the U.S. for work, and in fact, moving within the US will quite often require much bigger sacrifices in terms of distance from family. These differences are even less clear when you are talking about major regional shifts (coast to coast or north-south). I think a lot of the anxiety around seeking work abroad when 'abroad' means Europe - and in particular, the UK - is overblown.

later12 · 16-01-2012 06:25AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Which is why I specifically said Europe - moving to the US or Australia is a big deal, given the geographic distance, immigration issues, etc.

Well yes, perhaps. It's true that interstate mobility is relatively large in the USA, but moving 500 miles from North Dakota to South Dakota is massively less challenging than moving from England to nearby Belgium, for example.

From the migrant's perspective, staying within the same state (country) means no language changes, keeping very similar if not equal tax and welfare arrangements, as well as retaining much the same broad cultural and social norms,with some rare exceptions. Europe is far more politically and culturally heterogenous than the United States. So that's the migrant's perspective.

From the migrant's family's perspective, it may be the case that families in Ireland and other EU states anticipate a certain future for their loved one which is not anticipated by US families to the same degree. Whether one considers this logical or not, it still is upsetting to families to have to part with that anticipation. Telling them 'this isn't how it works elsewhere' isn't likely to be very helpful or relevant.

MadsL wrote:

Overall, 43 million U.S. residents, or 16 percent of the population, moved to a new residence during the one-year period.

That could mean moving up the road to be nearer to a Wendy's.

I'm sure if you looked at internal migration within Ireland, you'd see rather large movements also. You really need to look at the interstate migration, which certainly is significant in the US, but I have already gone into that above.

later12 · 16-01-2012 06:30AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think a lot of the anxiety around seeking work abroad when 'abroad' means Europe - and in particular, the UK - is overblown.

I don't think the anxiety has anything to do with culture changes in an Irish-UK context.

In that context, it's probably more to do with getting used to the idea of moving abroad because of economic necessity: being unable to find a job of almost any nature in Ireland. Many emigrants just hadn't anticipated that it would be so, they had seen their futures here in Ireland. Possibly most Americans outside of large urban centres don't grow up with that anticipation.

CaliforniaDream · 16-01-2012 07:02AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Galway to London is about 400 miles.

Cleveland to New York City is about 400 miles.

If you move from Cleveland to NYC here are the changes you will need to make:

If you had a local bank account (through a credit union, for example), you will need to switch. Your telephone area code will change, meaning you will probably switch mobile numbers (and carriers, since coverage varies significantly). You will have to re-register your car and get a new drivers license. You will switch health insurance providers. Local government services and local taxes will be completely different. Levels of diversity, local expenses, the real estate market, public transport systems, and the cost of living will be totally different. The education system will change, and not everything may be transferrable. If you are a licensed professional, you will need to get a new license, and may need to re-take professional exams. Local cultures and accents are totally different - there is no comparison there.

Given the availability of British TV channels in Ireland, I don't think that is a significant difference.

But there are no visa or work restrictions. As a EU citizen, you are not 'emigrating' in the same legal sense as an American seeking work outside of national borders. The main differences are really language - hence my emphasis on Anglophone clusters - and local culture, which varies significantly within large countries (and even small ones like Belgium).

In particular, other than the currency shift, it is still not clear to me that there are any major differences between emigrating from Ireland to the UK for work and moving within the U.S. for work, and in fact, moving within the US will quite often require much bigger sacrifices in terms of distance from family. These differences are even less clear when you are talking about major regional shifts (coast to coast or north-south). I think a lot of the anxiety around seeking work abroad when 'abroad' means Europe - and in particular, the UK - is overblown.

Can you clarify some things before I reply to this post.

Are you talking about moving from Ireland to:
1. England
2. European Union
3. Europe?

All three are completely different so clarification would be good so examples/arguments given are correct.

Father Damo · 16-01-2012 07:11AM

Johnny Foreigner wrote: »

I am London-Irish, and lived in the UK for 32 years.
.
For example, The Roman Catholic Church still has huge influence in Ireland.

Im assuming you havent taken a holiday to the homeland in 31 years with that statement :pac:

CaliforniaDream · 16-01-2012 07:17AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Galway to London is about 400 miles.

Cleveland to New York City is about 400 miles.

If you move from Cleveland to NYC here are the changes you will need to make:

If you had a local bank account (through a credit union, for example), you will need to switch.
And if you have an a/c with BoA for example you probably don't need to switch.
Your telephone area code will change, meaning you will probably switch mobile numbers (and carriers, since coverage varies significantly).
That's by choice. You have no need to switch area codes.
You will have to re-register your car and get a new drivers license.
Moving out of state yes. Moving within states, no.
You will switch health insurance providers.
Again, probably by choice.
Local government services and local taxes will be completely different.
Local things change everywhere. You still have one government in all the states.
Levels of diversity, local expenses, the real estate market, public transport systems, and the cost of living will be totally different.
Same can be said for any country. It varies within counties in Ireland too.
The education system will change, and not everything may be transferrable.
See point above.
If you are a licensed professional, you will need to get a new license, and may need to re-take professional exams. Local cultures and accents are totally different - there is no comparison there.
Accents don't vary as much as you think. Ireland probably has more accents than the states.

Given the availability of British TV channels in Ireland, I don't think that is a significant difference.
Many people in Ireland don't have British channels so it is a significant difference.

But there are no visa or work restrictions. As a EU citizen, you are not 'emigrating' in the same legal sense as an American seeking work outside of national borders. The main differences are really language - hence my emphasis on Anglophone clusters - and local culture, which varies significantly within large countries (and even small ones like Belgium).
Need clarification on Europe or EU thing to answer this. But you asked about moving with the US so visas don't count at all for you.
In particular, other than the currency shift, it is still not clear to me that there are any major differences between emigrating from Ireland to the UK for work and moving within the U.S. for work, and in fact, moving within the US will quite often require much bigger sacrifices in terms of distance from family. These differences are even less clear when you are talking about major regional shifts (coast to coast or north-south). I think a lot of the anxiety around seeking work abroad when 'abroad' means Europe - and in particular, the UK - is overblown.

Just wanted to add my points anyways. I'll expand when you let me know what you're talking about.

MadsL · 16-01-2012 07:19AM

later10 wrote: »

that could mean moving up the road to be nearer to a Wendy's.

That's why i posted the moving State statistic too :rolleyes:

later12 · 16-01-2012 07:23AM

MadsL wrote: »

That's why i posted the moving State statistic too :rolleyes:

Indeed. I answered that issue too.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 07:33AM

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

Can you clarify some things before I reply to this post.

Are you talking about moving from Ireland to:
1. England
2. European Union
3. Europe?

All three are completely different so clarification would be good so examples/arguments given are correct.

I am referring to:

1. Moving within the EU to a place where you speak the language (or at least work in the language, although that would be harder)
2. Moving to the UK, which most Irish people do when they move outside of the country.

southsiderosie · 16-01-2012 07:52AM

later10 wrote: »

Well yes, perhaps. It's true that interstate mobility is relatively large in the USA, but moving 500 miles from North Dakota to South Dakota is massively less challenging than moving from England to nearby Belgium, for example.

From the migrant's perspective, staying within the same state (country) means no language changes, keeping very similar if not equal tax and welfare arrangements, as well as retaining much the same broad cultural and social norms,with some rare exceptions. Europe is far more politically and culturally heterogenous than the United States. So that's the migrant's perspective.

Tax and welfare arrangements vary significantly within the United States. To refer back to my earlier example, other than the currency change, do you really think there is that much of a difference between moving from Galway to London and moving from Cleveland to New York City? And as for Europe, most people moving to non-Anglophone European countries (with the exception of English teachers) will have to be reasonably fluent in the local language - yes there may be more 'culture shock' since Ireland is arguably more Anglo-Saxon than continental, but within the European Anglosphere, I don't think that an 'international' move is much different than an inter-state move within the U.S. - except for the potential currency issue.

later10 wrote: »

From the migrant's family's perspective, it may be the case that families in Ireland and other EU states anticipate a certain future for their loved one which is not anticipated by US families to the same degree. Whether one considers this logical or not, it still is upsetting to families to have to part with that anticipation. Telling them 'this isn't how it works elsewhere' isn't likely to be very helpful or relevant.

Perhaps. But considering how Dublin-centric the Irish economy is, for most Irish families, wouldn't a move away from their hometown be pretty plausible for their kids? And it isn't that much of a stretch to extend that out to most of England, especially in the age of Ryanair.

More broadly, the Irish economy has for so long been so deeply entwined with the British economy, and the political, social and economic institutions so designed for movement between the two countries that 'emigration' just doesn't seem like the appropriate word to describe it somehow.

Is emigrating to Europe that big of a deal?

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